Maybe he's just not that good?
Nuri Sahin
- Thread starter SiYuan
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Are you basing this purely on the fact that Fergie has ignored him which to be fair could be false because for all we know he could be the mystery player, or have you actually watched him play and deduced that he's not good enough?
He scored a cracking goal today but overall I didn't think it was his best game.
Defensively he was ace though. Dispossessed Ribery time and again.
Fair point, his passing just wasn't as crisp as in other games I've seen from him. I was impressed with Großkreutz alongside him today.
Yeah, pretty perfectly put, he covered Ribery's wing perfect, Bayern struggled to achieve much today. Could have been better higher up today, but he did his defensive job amazingly.. Nuri Sahin would be a great signing. I'd love his arrival this summer.
Seems rather solid at the defensive bit, I see him compared a lot with Paul Scholes in various articles, but could he be somewhat of what Keano used to do? - great defensive midfielder with great passing ability. A man like that is vital if we are to play 4-4-2.
I hope Sahin are among the top prospects at Sir Alex's shortlist.
I did not know he was the captain of Dortmund.
He isn't but Kehl was on the bench and Weidenfeller as injured though highly suprised he got chosen over Subotic and Hummels
please fergie! sign him up, please!
As I said elsewhere. This lad would replace a player like Hargreaves perfectly. He has the way of Guardiola or Redondo about him. He is very good defensively yet ace going forward.
You shouldn't be. He has been at Dortmund longer.
Dortmund seem to have a great young team coming through
Why would they sell?
Why would they sell?
Dortmund historically aren't known for their financial strength - I can hardly see them turning down a £15 million bid for any player
Currently they are very financially sound. But with the youth they have coming through. They could be convinced to sell a Sahin at a reasonable fee.
I've never seen him play.
I'm just saying that if Fergie (and every other top manager in Europe) has ignored this bloke for five years since he broke through, maybe he lacks some vital abilities that doesn't make him suitable for a top club. It's just pure speculation based on the post I quoted. For what it's worth, he can have developed those abilities by now, and I won't say if he has since I'm not going to base an opinion on a player's ability based on a Youtube vid.
Said it in another thread a while ago, sign him up. He'd be perfect for us, exactly the player we need in the middle.
What are the comparative appearances for the players?
Majority of european leagues and teams choose the captains based on their time and appearances for the club. If Subotic and Hummels havent played as many games it could easily be down to that
Hummels -79 over 4 seasons (1 loan spell from Bayern followed by a signing on at end)
Subotic - 90 over 3 seasons
Sahin - 130 over 5 seasons (2 spells at club)
I get where you are coming from re:appearances and i suppose with the team being very young, i just see better leadership qualities from Subotic or Hummels most weeks.
I love Dortmund, first football match i ever went to!!! The Revierderby where Dortmund beat Schalke in the German cup 3rd round in 1988 followed by the final win vs Bremen at end of season in 1989. Always remember it because i met Andy Moller and didnt have a clue who the feck he was at the time
The problem is we're talking about the best player at the team thats going to win the Bundasliga. One of the top 4 or 5 leagues out there.
In Sir Alex's history as manager how many times have we gone and bought a player from the best team in one of the top leagues? Not often, because they cost so much. The reason I think it might be a bit different with Kagawa is that they have Gotze to come in and replace him right away. So they could be convinced that a decent sum of money to be spent elsewhere in the squad might be a good idea. Losing their best player obviously isnt a good idea.
In fact Dortmund have a number of good young players, we might surprise a few and go for one of the lesser mentioned stars of what is a fantastic Dortmund team this season. Like Bender or Kuba. I think that would be more like us
In Sir Alex's history as manager how many times have we gone and bought a player from the best team in one of the top leagues? Not often, because they cost so much. The reason I think it might be a bit different with Kagawa is that they have Gotze to come in and replace him right away. So they could be convinced that a decent sum of money to be spent elsewhere in the squad might be a good idea. Losing their best player obviously isnt a good idea.
In fact Dortmund have a number of good young players, we might surprise a few and go for one of the lesser mentioned stars of what is a fantastic Dortmund team this season. Like Bender or Kuba. I think that would be more like us
We don't need any one else from them outside Kagawa and Sahin.
You dont think Gotze or Bender could come in and play any better than the players we have in their positions?
Well do we need Kagawa? I think our forward lineup is pretty stacked - with Berbatov, Rooney, Chicharito, Welbeck, Diouf, Macheda & Owen who probably will depart at the end of season, regardless we have a lot of prospects. I see Joshua King has started to be a bit on the bench too. I hope we give some home grown the shot, even though a great Japanese player is valuable as he will make a lot of money in selling shirts. However he could wait, Sahin should be the immediate signing this summer.
Sahin seems to be the most interesting one, a box to box player with the ability to defend is key to succeed in a 4-4-2 which always will be my preferred formation. I would love to see Göetze too, seems like a very talented attacking midfielder - but of course as they head to the Champions League next season Dortmund will not be interested in selling a lot of players. You compared him with Redondo, that is one of my all time favourite players.
Gotze is going to be amazing. He and Sahin would make excellent additions.
If you look at his average position during a lot of matches this season, when Anderson has played our midfield has looked like this
----Anderson
Midfielder Midfielder
From a midfield 3, he is venturing into the hole. This is the position Kagawa could play (better) if there is any truth in the rumour that we want him.
Anderson should be used as a box to box midfielder in my opinion. The left of those 3 players. Because he doesnt make the difference in the final third
You can look at the fact he's playing in the more advanced position 1 of 2 ways
1) Sir Alex sees his future there as the AM in his system. That doesnt mean he plays the role well enough now
2) He plays there because we dont have a specialist to play there. Anderson is seen as a better option to the aging Giggs, or trying someone like Valencia in there. It used to be Park's position but we've barely ever used him there other than Milan
----Anderson
Midfielder Midfielder
From a midfield 3, he is venturing into the hole. This is the position Kagawa could play (better) if there is any truth in the rumour that we want him.
Anderson should be used as a box to box midfielder in my opinion. The left of those 3 players. Because he doesnt make the difference in the final third
You can look at the fact he's playing in the more advanced position 1 of 2 ways
1) Sir Alex sees his future there as the AM in his system. That doesnt mean he plays the role well enough now
2) He plays there because we dont have a specialist to play there. Anderson is seen as a better option to the aging Giggs, or trying someone like Valencia in there. It used to be Park's position but we've barely ever used him there other than Milan
They will never sell Goetze and Bender is not the solution to our lack of creativity.
This would be the ideal midfield for us:
Kagawa/Fletcher--Sahin--Anderson
A midfield for hunting down and pressing opponents Dortmund/Barca style.
So you no longer think that Fletcher and Gibson are the future of our midfield then Chief?
I still think they are the future of midfield. I feel we need 6 good midfielders for the long term.
I wouldn't mind having Kagawa, Fletcher, Anderson, and Sahin competing for 3 starting roles with Carrick as first 11 insurance and Gibson as squad cover.
That is why I think SAF will add 2 midfielders to our ranks this summer if we lose both Hargreaves and Scholes from our squad
So we are the new Dortmund/Barca???
Ridiculous.
No
I'd just like us to have midfield that hunts down opponents who have the ball. Rather than letting them come on to us.
How?
Since 2008 we've had Hargreaves, Anderson, Fletcher, Scholes, Carrick as our center midfielders. Those are 5. Giggs it can be argued has been the 6th because he has been given several games in center midfield in that period.
Last season Gibson took over that role.
Meaning right now when all our midfielders are fit we have Carrick, Fletcher, Scholes , Hargreaves, Gibson and Anderson on our books. As first team center midfielders. Who would all definitely be getting games.
Having up to 6 CM's on our first team squad books is one of the chief reason's we've been so successful since 2007. Do you think that was ridiculous too?
I agree, but we dont always sign players who we strictly "need" to cover our biggest weakness. For example we signed Smalling and that turns out to be an improvement on Evans. It did little for our midfield and/or creativity... But improved us in another area.
Fletcher and Carrick have both been quite average for us this season. While someone like Bender isnt going to excite anyone or address our major problem, there's every chance he could perform better than one of those two and would be an improvement. Plus he's young and they arent.
Regardless, I'm not talking about what I think we should do. I'm just speculating based on the kind of policy we use in the transfer windows.
Every window we list the best young players out there and more often than not, the players we sign arent the best players at the top clubs in the top 4 or 5 divisions. With Giggs and maybe Scholes signing on, I cant see it being likely we'll change that policy this summer
We have too many central midfielders on the books as it is. This is partly because Hargreaves is a crock and because Scholes has to be rotated.
There would be no point in keeping Carrick about if he was going to 4th choice... not that I think he would be as I think he'd keep Fletcher out. There's also no point in keeping Gibson about to be 5th choice. In fact I'm not sure there's any point in keeping him about anyway. I don't know anything much about Kagawa but is he really ready to be first choice? Is Anderson? We don't even play 4-3-3 in every game and I'm not sure we will with at least Valencia, Nani, Berbatov, Rooney and Hernandez around for the attacking spots.
Yeah, and that is what making signing midfielders so extremely complicated, because we have a lot of very good midfielders, but few world beaters. The ones we sign either have to be, or can rapidly adapt to be significantly better than the ones we already possess. Because if they are not we should use the ones we already have.
I think Sahin offers something different, and therefore would be a great signing.
Even when Hargreaves was fit a Scholes didn't need to be rotated in 2008 the status quo was the same. At least we have only 6. Arsenal have like 9.
Maybe. But in my scenario he'd be in direct competition with a Sahin who is hands down a superior player to him. Besides, he'd get loads of games. English club sides play so many games. That is why even why having up to 6 first team squad CM's on our books has helped us cope with it all.
A Carrick would never be stricly 4th choice. We'd just have healthy competition.
I didn't rate him as first choice either tbh. I was just including him as straight competition for Fletcher
Right now yes. Only Scholes is more creative than him on our books and I believe he will eventually over come his injury woes. Which should enable him to become a consistently good performer
We have had the same number of center midfielders since 2008 without playing 4-3-3 every game. I assure you, we've needed that number around. With even Giggs and O'shea being forced to fill in at times.
Honestly, gone are the days when only 4 CM's could get us by with all the competitions we compete for and games we play.
I'll be very surprised is SAF ever allows his CM count to drop below 5 again , with one extra as emergency cover.
Sure, we could have 5 players, but you'd hope for some balance there - and preferably at least one of them would be under 21.
I think if - say - Hargreaves and Scholes leave, and we were to buy two new players, I think another player would be on his way.
I think if - say - Hargreaves and Scholes leave, and we were to buy two new players, I think another player would be on his way.
Well bringing in 22 year olds would be just as good no?
Ideally. But when it comes to guys like Gibson they never complain, which is why I think he'd stay to be the one extra. Although that role would more logically go to one of the likes of Tunnicliffe, James, Pogba, Petrucci. etc.
All in all, I have strong reason to doubt SAF would want less than 5 players capable of a first team role competing for his first 11 midfield slots. That's why I think if we lose both Hargreaves and Scholes in one summer. We will definitely bring in 2 to the squad.
Sure.
My point is - I think - that Fletcher and Gibson clearly aren't the future of our midfield, or at least I hope not.
My point is - I think - that Fletcher and Gibson clearly aren't the future of our midfield, or at least I hope not.