Obama's Legacy

berbatrick

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He's smart/knowledgeable enough to know that the Soviets supported Saddam against the Islamic Republic, and that the raw materials sold to Iraq came from many western countries and not the USSR... Wonder why he wrote this.

 

2cents

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He's smart/knowledgeable enough to know that the Soviets supported Saddam against the Islamic Republic, and that the raw materials sold to Iraq came from many western countries and not the USSR... Wonder why he wrote this.

Maybe he’s not actually smart enough. That is basic ignorance right there, and there doesn’t seem to be any context missing that might excuse it.
 

Gehrman

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2cents

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Don't know how reliable these sources are but they do suggest that Iran also had some chemical weapons during that era.

https://www.iranwatch.org/our-publi...history-irans-chemical-weapon-related-efforts

https://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/iran/cw.htm
I’ve only scanned them briefly, but from what I can see neither claims that the Soviets supported Iran’s CW program.Given that it’s widely known that the Soviet Union was Iraq’s biggest supporter during the war, that’s Obama’s entire framing of international involvement in the Iran-Iraq War in that paragraph out the window.

Also that first article makes the claim that Iran bears partial responsibility for the chemical attacks on Halabja, which is something I’ve never heard before and don’t find credible at all. So I’d approach the rest of it with extreme caution.
 

Gehrman

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I’ve only scanned them briefly, but from what I can see neither claims that the Soviets supported Iran’s CW program.Given that it’s widely known that the Soviet Union was Iraq’s biggest supporter during the war, that’s Obama’s entire framing of international involvement in the Iran-Iraq War in that paragraph out the window.

Also that first article makes the claim that Iran bears partial responsibility for the chemical attacks on Halabja, which is something I’ve never heard before and don’t find credible at all. So I’d approach the rest of it with extreme caution.
Considering you're the Historiographer, I'll trust you on this.
 

amolbhatia50k

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His comments on our politics/politicians in the book seem absolutely spot on.
 

2cents

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Considering you're the Historiographer, I'll trust you on this.
All this is common knowledge, it doesn’t take a historian to get it right.

I should add - Obama’s framing of international involvement in that war is particularly ignorant/dishonest given that it was Western powers who contributed to Iraq’s CW program. To suggest Iraq was merely financially supported by the Gulf states, while Iran was militarily supported by the Soviets (inc. with chemical weapons) is just bizarre, and looks like an attempt to shift the blame for the use of chemical weapons in the conflict from Iraq and the Western powers (where it belongs) on to Iran and the Soviets.

I’d expect this kind of revisionist history from, say, a member of the George W. Bush administration. However it’s a bit puzzling coming from Obama, given that his signature foreign policy goal was rapprochement with Iran.
 

ThierryHenry

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Beyond twitter screen-grabs, has anyone actually started on this? Recommend to get an insight into the inner-workings of the White House, and understanding Obama and some of the overlapping political figures?

It's going to be such an obvious 'centrist Dad' present this Christmas.
 

berbatrick

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Maybe he’s not actually smart enough. That is basic ignorance right there, and there doesn’t seem to be any context missing that might excuse it.
A podcast I listen to pointed out that Obama's worldview is very much shaped by the Tom Freidmans and Fareed Zakarias of the world, and I then remembered he took time, as president, to address criticism from either Freidman or David Brooks in the NYT. So you're right, ignorance/being in a kind of bubble is a plausible explanation.
 

2cents

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A podcast I listen to pointed out that Obama's worldview is very much shaped by the Tom Freidmans and Fareed Zakarias of the world, and I then remembered he took time, as president, to address criticism from either Freidman or David Brooks in the NYT. So you're right, ignorance/being in a kind of bubble is a plausible explanation.
Wasn’t he very publicly pictured reading a Zakaria book not long after becoming President? The Post American World or something like that.
 

berbatrick

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Wasn’t he very publicly pictured reading a Zakaria book not long after becoming President? The Post American World or something like that.
I was remembering this:
https://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/06/opinion/06brooks.html

On Tuesday, I wrote that the Obama budget is a liberal, big government document that should make moderates nervous. The column generated a large positive response from moderate Obama supporters who are anxious about where the administration is headed. It was not so popular inside the White House. Within a day, I had conversations with four senior members of the administration and in the interest of fairness, I thought I’d share their arguments with you today.
the article itself is really worth a read to get a sense of his administration's priorities - they talk abut cutting social security, which biden denied in a debate - (and how untethered from reality current arguments about his progressive ideas being stymied are).
 

berbatrick

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I think he is the first Dem to openly take him on like this.
Bernie refused to do any open criticism during the primaries. AOC/Ilhan responded to the same statement from Obama by talking about organic demands and phrases. This guy is the first to actually go back to his record.

 

Raoul

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From 2 wars to 7? I assume Syria is the 3rd, what are the others?
They consider any country where the US is vaguely involved to be a US war, which of course isn't true. The other 4 being Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia, and Libya.
 

nimic

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That was a UN sponsored campaign, not a US war.
Sure, but so was Korea, and that was definitely a US war still. That's not to say that this was anything like the scale of Korea, but it was something. Norway bombed Libya too, so we're also complicit - as are a whole host of other nations.
 

Raoul

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Sure, but so was Korea, and that was definitely a US war still. That's not to say that this was anything like the scale of Korea, but it was something. Norway bombed Libya too, so we're also complicit - as are a whole host of other nations.
No one is complicit in anything. Wars simply happen from time to time. In this case it was backed by the UN, which means it wasn't unilateral. Afghanistan has also been a NATO effort for at least 7 years. These are all largely campaigns with the backing of multi-lateral organizations.
 

Raoul

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That's hands down one of the most ridiculous things you've ever said.
It happens to be true, and is a natural consequence of living an an anarchic international system without laws that everyone follows. Larger states are therefore incentivized to project power to advance their interests. This is a central tenet of structural realism, which is the predominant theory in international relations.
 

nimic

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It happens to be true, and is a natural consequence of living an an anarchic international system without laws that everyone follows. Larger states are therefore incentivized to project power to advance their interests. This is a central part of structural realism, which is the predominant theory in international relations.
None of that is the same as saying "no one is complicit in anything". Actually, none of that is the same as saying "wars simply happen from time to time" either, like that answers anything. The fact that you're trying to distance the US from Afghanistan of all things is bad enough.

And who said anything about states being or not being incentivized to project power? Being incentivized to do something is a far cry from not having any kind of responsibilty or even agency. The US chose to invade Afghanistan, and the result was a decades long war that has cost hundreds of thousands of lives and destabilized an entire region. The US also chose to bomb Libya, which had similar effects, though on a much smaller scale. My point was that Norway also chose to bomb Libya, so we are complicit. It doesn't matter one bit that we were "just along for the ride". It was a conscious decision and those have consequences.
 

Raoul

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None of that is the same as saying "no one is complicit in anything". Actually, none of that is the same as saying "wars simply happen from time to time" either, like that answers anything. The fact that you're trying to distance the US from Afghanistan of all things is bad enough.

And who said anything about states being or not being incentivized to project power? Being incentivized to do something is a far cry from not having any kind of responsibilty or even agency. The US chose to invade Afghanistan, and the result was a decades long war that has cost hundreds of thousands of lives and destabilized an entire region. The US also chose to bomb Libya, which had similar effects, though on a much smaller scale. My point was that Norway also chose to bomb Libya, so we are complicit. It doesn't matter one bit that we were "just along for the ride". It was a conscious decision and those have consequences.
What precisely is Norway "complicit" in ? The Libya campaign had UN backing.