Can you imagine Lewandowski leading the line for this team? Holy shit we'd be class.
Our attack is a mess | Joint 10th with Bournemouth for goals scored
- Thread starter Sam
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
The problem is that all the outstanding talent over the last 5-6 went to Barca, Real, Bayern, City, Chelsea and PSG.
The way people talk about the "attack", you do think we've never played 0-0 before with Ronaldo, Rooney and Tevez in the squad.
In 07/08 (with those 3) we scored 80 Pl goals at a rate of 2.1 goals per game. Last season we scored 62 goals at 1.6 goals per game, and this season we're averaging 0.6 goals per game. Its a completely different kettle of fish.
And just to put our attack in a bit more perspective, of the 3 teams we've played this season, and not actually managed to score a proper goal against, 2 of them were fighting relegation last season, and will almost certainly finish in the bottom half of the table this. And we haven't been able to score a non opponent assisted goal against them in 180 minutes of football.
There's absolutely no way you can dress this up. Our attack has been horrendous since the start of pre-season.
2008/09, we scored 68 goals, we won the league by 90 points( 3 points more than the prior season we scored 80 goals) and we had Ronaldo, Rooney, Tevez and Berba in squad. Number or type of striker(s) is irrelevant. What matters is what the group can deliver as a unit. If the current becomes difficult to beat and learn to steal games away with 1 goal, they will get to similar point level.
Again, what matters is what the "group" can deliver as a unit. Our pre-season was not horrendous at all. We scored 7 goals in 4 games. People need to stop using this game to judge. We were unlucky, Rooney's goal should have stood at least and we had a ball cleared of the line. If another striker or wing forward comes in, fine by me. If not, fair enough. I have faith in LVG, after all he's not stupid.
People were saying we needed a defender, he's showing us we don't although, some are still doubtful. If he says a striker is not needed, then I will wait to see what he has in mind. His job is on the line here and he can't be that foolish.
Edit: We open that season(08/09) with a 1-1 draw at home to Newcastle. We had 58% possession, 21 shots with 7 on target. Scholes that was saying crap today on BT sports was in that team.
Today we had 70% possession, 20 shots with 8 on target on got zero goal. And yet Scholes will have us believe there was nothing in the game and we are screwed unless we buy Zlatan.
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People aren't using this game to judge! Seriously, why do people keep saying this? This issue has been talked about all the way through pre-season, its the most non knee jerk thread going. Just look at the date I started this thread, July 30th.
Pre-season we looked toothless upfront the minute we came up against any half decent opposition, just as we have since the season has started. Infact we looked pretty toothless in the first pre-season game too, but that was put down to the players being unfit.
Anyone that doesn't think our attack is a mess, is burying their head well and truly in the sand. Just having faith in LVG getting things right, despite all the on pitch evidence suggesting he's doing the opposite, is just plain blind optimism. We've managed one own goal, and one deflected shot in 3 games, two against relegation candidates. Thats a woeful return for any PL club, nevermind Manchester United.
Shamelessly stolen from MOTD...
If LVG, or anyone for that matter, thinks there is enough goals in this team to seriously challenge for the title, they're going to be in for a big shock this coming season. And that's not even taking into consideration the chances of Memphis hitting 22 PL goals in his first season is so highly unlikely. Chris Smalling is the 5th highest goalscorer in our current team, with 4 goals from last season ffs! The 3rd highest, Mata, didn't even hit double figures.
The only chance we'd have, with no more signings, is if someone had a spectacular 30 goal season (ala Kane last season), and quite frankly, I don't see anyone in the team capable of that right now.
If LVG, or anyone for that matter, thinks there is enough goals in this team to seriously challenge for the title, they're going to be in for a big shock this coming season. And that's not even taking into consideration the chances of Memphis hitting 22 PL goals in his first season is so highly unlikely. Chris Smalling is the 5th highest goalscorer in our current team, with 4 goals from last season ffs! The 3rd highest, Mata, didn't even hit double figures.
The only chance we'd have, with no more signings, is if someone had a spectacular 30 goal season (ala Kane last season), and quite frankly, I don't see anyone in the team capable of that right now.
So as it's shaping up we are shipping out 3 more forwards and adding one who while talented is a pretty unproven 19 year old.
That means we have 2 strikers, 2 wingers, a Mata and 2 CM's filling in as #10's.
That means we have 2 strikers, 2 wingers, a Mata and 2 CM's filling in as #10's.
Forwards, creativity, and goals are over rated, anyway.
At this rate I'm going to have to change the title to 'Our attack is non existent'
You're right, it's all about ball poseshion.
It's crazy, especially when you consider that 2 of them are 21 and 19 respectively and are fairly unproven with one strong season to their name.So, we have just over 12 hours to sort this out...Can't say I'm overly positive...
With the attacking players we have, one thing is guaranteed this season: we would be boring to watch.
I don't think any of our attacking players are more than a 7/10. We need at least two new, world class attackers.
I don't think any of our attacking players are more than a 7/10. We need at least two new, world class attackers.
Could argue we're only a great right winger away from having a fine attack, really. Doubt it will be tomorrow, but along with LCB and GK, should be the main priorities that we address next summer:
--------------------Rooney/Martial--------
Memphis/Pereira---Mata/Herrera---Bale or Reus/Januzaj
That looks good
--------------------Rooney/Martial--------
Memphis/Pereira---Mata/Herrera---Bale or Reus/Januzaj
That looks good
Forwards out the door and relying on Rooney, a 19 year old and Fellaini. Not good enough.
I would of thought we'd be hearing something if another player was coming by now.
I would of thought we'd be hearing something if another player was coming by now.
We don't dribble enough. One of the first things I noticed against Swansea is that several of their attacking and midfield players were comfortable taking on two and sometimes three players and dribbling their way out of trouble. I'm not talking about picking it up and going all Dejan Lovren and charging at our players. I'm not talking about being under pressure and turning on it and running backwards, as well as the kind of ambling up the park on the ball and as soon as someone came near us scrambling a pass somewhere like a hot potato desperate to not be on the ball type of stuff that we play. They seemed to be happy to take the ball into dangerous situations and use it to create overloads in other areas.
We just pass the ball around for the sake of passing it then shit ourselves and offload the ball to stop ourselves from losing it. It is absolutely fecking tragic if you ask me.
We just pass the ball around for the sake of passing it then shit ourselves and offload the ball to stop ourselves from losing it. It is absolutely fecking tragic if you ask me.
7 hours and counting....
I just watched this. Wow! Forgot how good we were to watch back in those days.
I think our players are capable of running with the ball, but are not encouraged to do it. He probably sees it as wasted energy. I see it as exciting.
But how is some people's optimism worrying? It wouldn't make any difference if we did panic. If fans on a forum going crazy could affect the club, we'd be in bigger trouble than ever.
I think the two main issues are as follows:
1. Wayne Rooney is shit.
2. Van Gaal's tactics/formation. I think we are struggling creatively because of this stupid 'for me, I prefer the #10 to be like a second striker' philosophy. I will use City as an example. They have the best #10 in the League. Still, how much would they lose from their attack if Silva was instructed to stay up top, and not given licence to drift and link? We basically have nobody performing those duties. It is old school to say 'our creativity comes from our wings'. It is easy to defend against, unless your widemen are great dribblers. When Memphis gets the ball, for instance, he has two men on him. A right back, and a defensive mid just inside/behind. The only possible out comes are:
a) he beats two men and opens up the game - unlikely.
b) finds an overlapping Shaw.
c) passes backward to Blind or DM.
By comparison, when Sterling picks up the ball, from say, Fernandinho - he has the extra option of Silva, who has moved outside to a position not too dissimilar to the one Mata played the pass for Adnand's goal against Villa. This gives an extra link player, and makes it easier for Depay to take the first option of dribbling too, as the second defender is also covering. Now look at Adnan, who was our actual #10 against Villa, and look at the position he was in to receive the pass. Central, edge of the box, on the half turn. This is where LVG has forced his 10 to play, and the huge area between midfield and Rooney is not properly filled. Even against Swansea, Herrera was very high.
Last season when we played some good stuff, Herrera and Fellaini were creating 3-man attacks down either side. It was Blind/Fellaini/Young and Valencia/Herrera/Mata. Both trios were excellent, and enabled us to dominate those situations. Now, we have done the equivalent of moving Herrera and Fellaini from those equations, and put this player almost in a centre forward position, surrendering this overload in the build up. We now have a two on two, or even two on three, which is far more difficult to overcome. The third/spare man is our centre-half, who splits wide, but that only creates the option of the pass backwards, which is negative.
Van Gaal must drop this whole second striker thing and allow a player to roam into these areas and support the winger and full-back in attacks, or we are either hoping for miracles from the wide men, or will continue to struggle.
Sorry for the essay.
1. Wayne Rooney is shit.
2. Van Gaal's tactics/formation. I think we are struggling creatively because of this stupid 'for me, I prefer the #10 to be like a second striker' philosophy. I will use City as an example. They have the best #10 in the League. Still, how much would they lose from their attack if Silva was instructed to stay up top, and not given licence to drift and link? We basically have nobody performing those duties. It is old school to say 'our creativity comes from our wings'. It is easy to defend against, unless your widemen are great dribblers. When Memphis gets the ball, for instance, he has two men on him. A right back, and a defensive mid just inside/behind. The only possible out comes are:
a) he beats two men and opens up the game - unlikely.
b) finds an overlapping Shaw.
c) passes backward to Blind or DM.
By comparison, when Sterling picks up the ball, from say, Fernandinho - he has the extra option of Silva, who has moved outside to a position not too dissimilar to the one Mata played the pass for Adnand's goal against Villa. This gives an extra link player, and makes it easier for Depay to take the first option of dribbling too, as the second defender is also covering. Now look at Adnan, who was our actual #10 against Villa, and look at the position he was in to receive the pass. Central, edge of the box, on the half turn. This is where LVG has forced his 10 to play, and the huge area between midfield and Rooney is not properly filled. Even against Swansea, Herrera was very high.
Last season when we played some good stuff, Herrera and Fellaini were creating 3-man attacks down either side. It was Blind/Fellaini/Young and Valencia/Herrera/Mata. Both trios were excellent, and enabled us to dominate those situations. Now, we have done the equivalent of moving Herrera and Fellaini from those equations, and put this player almost in a centre forward position, surrendering this overload in the build up. We now have a two on two, or even two on three, which is far more difficult to overcome. The third/spare man is our centre-half, who splits wide, but that only creates the option of the pass backwards, which is negative.
Van Gaal must drop this whole second striker thing and allow a player to roam into these areas and support the winger and full-back in attacks, or we are either hoping for miracles from the wide men, or will continue to struggle.
Sorry for the essay.
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Now that was a team
Can someone please email that to LVG?Amazing to see how fast Rooney used to be too.
It does. But Bale, Reus and Januzaj (and Martial as things stand) don't play for us at the moment. So the reality is:
Rooney/Martial
Memphis/Pereira -- Herrera/Felliani -- Mata/Young
Memphis/Pereira -- Herrera/Felliani -- Mata/Young
So LVG complains about a lack of pace and creativity in the squad...
- Sells Hernandez
- Loans out Janjuzaj
I'm really struggling to understand the logic here. Anyone?
- Sells Hernandez
- Loans out Janjuzaj
I'm really struggling to understand the logic here. Anyone?
What I'd give for us to play like that again..
In LVG's (and Woody's) defence, we haven't played like that since. It's not a recent thing, ever since about 2011 at the latest our standard of play was declining.Now that was a team
Amazing to see how fast Rooney used to be too.
If we'd have signed Pedro I'd be fairly content to be honest.
The issue with our strikers is even if you think they're not good enough, we do actually have strikers in the squad who if they played well are suited to their role... Our right wing however... We have one slow #10 as basically our only option on the right, it's just rendering the right side of our attack as non-existant. We needed some pace and a more traditional wide player, at least as an option even if we plan to keep Mata there as first choice. We don't even have a 2nd option.
The issue with our strikers is even if you think they're not good enough, we do actually have strikers in the squad who if they played well are suited to their role... Our right wing however... We have one slow #10 as basically our only option on the right, it's just rendering the right side of our attack as non-existant. We needed some pace and a more traditional wide player, at least as an option even if we plan to keep Mata there as first choice. We don't even have a 2nd option.
Oh yeah, I'm looking more to next year already. I'm assuming Martial will sign and Memphis will be a better player in his 2nd year (and aged 22) then he will be this year, and that we'll hopefully be a tad less rigid (or else signing Martial, who drifts left and isn't Inzaghi in terms of poaching).
But, how does that compare to all the possession we keep, these days?
The lack of attacking depth is so worrying. And injury to Rooney as we're down the the bare bones already. We had nothing on the bench today.
Just makes the decisions to not buy another attacker and to loan/sell Januzaj/Hernandez even more bizarre. Can't understand how Wilson/Pereria aren't even making the bench either.
Just makes the decisions to not buy another attacker and to loan/sell Januzaj/Hernandez even more bizarre. Can't understand how Wilson/Pereria aren't even making the bench either.
It's bizarre how short LvG has left the team in attack, after our game I watched the City/Juve game and City had Aguero, De Bryune and Navas to come on, we don't even have a proper second option at RW as Young isn't comfortable out there and it takes away the most dangerous part of Memphis game.
He insists on having players carry out multiple roles. That might work if you're managing the Netherlands where players are accustomed to it but we still have our share of one-dimensional players.
The whole world outside of the Netherlands is full of one-dimensional players who perform admirably at the top. And guess what: the Netherlands have won jack shit since 1988 while plenty of nations with one-dimensional players have won continental and world titles. That's what Van Gaal will have to shove down his thick skull.
I just don't understand the logic in getting rid of Januzaj, Nani, RVP and Hernandez and then leaving our attack so short. I get the logic in the latter three leaving, but not replacing them is madness.
We resorted to Valencia in an attacking position again last night...are you really telling me he's a better attacking option then ANY of those 4 we got rid of?
Incredibly short sighted, and poor, management imo. A knock to two of our attacking players at the same time, and we're absolutely screwed.
We have no depth at all, which is what I was getting at in my prior post that @Kakeru replied to. LVG seems to think that he can keep a squad of Young, Valencia, and Fellaini when none of them can really fill the multipurpose roles that are typical for players like Blind and Memphis. Like you said, I think we were right in selling off those players but we should've gotten a couple of reliable multiposition squad players, which should be very easy for a club like us to do.
We're not that short up top:
-----------Martial-----------
Depay-----Rooney-----Mata
------------Fellaini------------
Young-----Herrera-----Pereira
Plus Lingard, ok it's a bit lightweight I suppose but there is good quality there, and the youth will get a good chance. Plus they'll be supported by a top midfield two.
It's the defence that's concerning me more now.
-----------Martial-----------
Depay-----Rooney-----Mata
------------Fellaini------------
Young-----Herrera-----Pereira
Plus Lingard, ok it's a bit lightweight I suppose but there is good quality there, and the youth will get a good chance. Plus they'll be supported by a top midfield two.
It's the defence that's concerning me more now.
I would have kept Chicharito around for sure.
- Fellani isn't a striker.
- Young and Memphis are our only actual wingers, neither of whom play on the right
- Pereira and Lingard have played a combined total of 37 minutes in the PL
The depth is absolutely shocking.
Funnily enough, yesterday was probably the most encouraging game from us from an attacking viewpoint. Plenty of chances, good chances at that. Just one of those days that it didn't come off. The last 20 minutes were shit but the first hour was actually good from us and if we play like that consistently, we'll win the majority of games. Put Rooney in there as well, instead of Mata, and I think we'll be even better.
The only worry is our lack of depth. On the left we're okay, with both Memphis and young. But up top, only Martial has shown that he can play there with Fellaini and Rooney doing nothing. At #10, Rooney will play when fit so that'll be his spot (with nobody really excelling there, apart from Herrera but he can play elsewhere) and I have no problem with that, think we could bring the best out of him again as well. We can play fellaini, mata or Herrera there, but its not much for changing a game as a substitute either. On the right we have Mata/Herrera/young basically, and they're all cover for other positions as well. No idea why we got rid of januzaj as I felt we needed a starting right sided player alongside Januzaj to be his cover, but oh well. We basically rely on Martial/Memphis/rooney/mata to win games from the start (its a pretty great attack tbf), and only have Young really who can change games as a sub, or fellaini for hoofing. Probably the reason we won't win the title (along with Shaws injury now). Next few windows we need to focus on squad depth though. Memphis and martial will become stars, maybe bring in one more top attacking player for the right side, and then our starting 11 will be fine I think.
The only worry is our lack of depth. On the left we're okay, with both Memphis and young. But up top, only Martial has shown that he can play there with Fellaini and Rooney doing nothing. At #10, Rooney will play when fit so that'll be his spot (with nobody really excelling there, apart from Herrera but he can play elsewhere) and I have no problem with that, think we could bring the best out of him again as well. We can play fellaini, mata or Herrera there, but its not much for changing a game as a substitute either. On the right we have Mata/Herrera/young basically, and they're all cover for other positions as well. No idea why we got rid of januzaj as I felt we needed a starting right sided player alongside Januzaj to be his cover, but oh well. We basically rely on Martial/Memphis/rooney/mata to win games from the start (its a pretty great attack tbf), and only have Young really who can change games as a sub, or fellaini for hoofing. Probably the reason we won't win the title (along with Shaws injury now). Next few windows we need to focus on squad depth though. Memphis and martial will become stars, maybe bring in one more top attacking player for the right side, and then our starting 11 will be fine I think.
Agreed with most of that.
I said in the post match thread, but I was actually really pleased with the way we played. I was much more encouraged with last night then I was after the wins against Spurs and Villa.
Agreed with this too.
In the last 20, once things had gone a bit flat, we just had no one on the bench to come in and change things, except Fellaini. And thats with just one injury to our attacking force. What happens if a couple of attackers get a knock? Or Memphs/Martial need a rest?
I just find it staggering how we've left ourselves so short in attack. I'll never understand what the logic behind getting rid of Januzaj was.