Palestinian Window Chucking

holyland red

"Holier-than-thou fundamentalist"
Joined
Oct 19, 2001
Messages
19,098
Location
Haifa, Israel
Forgive me for being blunt, but those conclusions do seem to be fairly even handed, blaming all sides for the situation.

You may not agree with the conclusions, but it seems to be one man's opinion of what went wrong
I beg to differ. Firstly, it is not coincidental that the Guardian title for the GS violence story reads: "Secret UN report condemns US for Middle East failures". This is poor journalism worthy of Pravda, and I'm afraid is what the newspaper's loyal readers deserve.

More importantly, the honourable UN envoy brands Israel's stance ""essentially rejectionist" even though (as mentioned in the report) Hamas refused "to commit to non-violence, recognise Israel and accept previous agreements". What on earth did Mr. de Soto expect from Israel in light of this Hamas stance? What exactly did Israel have a chance to reject here?
 

holyland red

"Holier-than-thou fundamentalist"
Joined
Oct 19, 2001
Messages
19,098
Location
Haifa, Israel
Feck me...it works, but my old computer crushed...I'm sure Mozza, FS, Sultan et al will come up with the important quotes from Mr. de Soto anyway.

:lol: at the "confidential" stamp
 

Frosty

Logical and sensible but turns women gay
Joined
Jan 11, 2007
Messages
17,330
Location
Yes I can hear you Clem Fandango!
I beg to differ. Firstly, it is not coincidental that the Guardian title for the GS violence story reads: "Secret UN report condemns US for Middle East failures". This is poor journalism worthy of Pravda, and I'm afraid is what the newspaper's loyal readers deserve.

More importantly, the honourable UN envoy brands Israel's stance ""essentially rejectionist" even though (as mentioned in the report) Hamas refused "to commit to non-violence, recognise Israel and accept previous agreements". What on earth did Mr. de Soto expect from Israel in light of this Hamas stance? What exactly did Israel have a chance to reject here?
Could I get back to you in the morning, after I have had a chance to sleep and read the report in full?

I will agree that the title chosen by the Guardian seems to be to sell as many papers as possible. They have a long history of doing this, at least as far as I can remember, and the headline very often does not reflect the true content of the story.

Anyway, Holyland, I'm off to bed. Peace.
 

Wibble

In Gadus Speramus
Staff
Joined
Jun 15, 2000
Messages
89,404
Location
Centreback
The 1973 war proved that we could. Learn your history, son.

Holding the Sinai peninsula was easier than holding the WB (which we can't do forever) because it only had a small local population.
Half of which was Bedouin anyway. You could have held the Sinai no problem.
 

holyland red

"Holier-than-thou fundamentalist"
Joined
Oct 19, 2001
Messages
19,098
Location
Haifa, Israel
Could I get back to you in the morning, after I have had a chance to sleep and read the report in full?

I will agree that the title chosen by the Guardian seems to be to sell as many papers as possible. They have a long history of doing this, at least as far as I can remember, and the headline very often does not reflect the true content of the story.

Anyway, Holyland, I'm off to bed. Peace.
Don't trouble yourself with reading the whole report. Hamas' stance is stated in that Guardian report in the second paragraph following de Soto's quotes.
 

holyland red

"Holier-than-thou fundamentalist"
Joined
Oct 19, 2001
Messages
19,098
Location
Haifa, Israel
Half of which was Bedouin anyway. You could have held the Sinai no problem.
It appears they'd have us back if it was their choice ;)

Sinai Bedouins seek entry into Israel after clash with Egyptian police
You know police brutality has reached a new low in Egypt when hundreds of the country's poorest would rather seek refuge in Israel than face Mubarak's hired guns. The government should be ashamed of itself...

From Reuters, 26 April 2007

Hundreds of Egyptian Sinai Bedouin massed at the border with Israel on Thursday seeking entry to Israel a day after two Bedouin men died in a police chase, security source
s and witnesses said.

The security sources said Egyptian police were monitoring the tribesmen from a distance but had not approached them, as a significant number of them were armed.

The massing at the border came a day after many Bedouin took to the streets and set fire to dozens of tires in anger over the death of two Sinai Bedouin men on Wednesday in a chase with Egyptian police.

Security sources said the two men had exchanged fire with police after driving through a checkpoint in a pick-up truck with no license plates.

Tribal sources said the Bedouin headed to the border fearing a police crackdown and a wave of arrests after Wednesday's deaths and protests. One tribal sheikh who asked not to be named said the Bedouin came from several tribes and had been seeking entry into Israel since dawn.

Security sources described the decision to try to seek entry into Israel as an attempt by the Bedouin to embarrass the Egyptian government.

Bedouin in 1999 managed to illegally cross the border into Israel after disagreements with other tribes and requested political asylum there, but were returned to Egypt.

Egypt blamed a series of bombings in Sinai, the last of which took place in April 2006, on a local Islamist group which they say is made up of Sinai Bedouin with militant views.

Security sweeps have since focused heavily on Sinai's Bedouins. Human rights groups say Egypt detained up to 2,500 people for questioning after the bombings, and that many were subjected to torture. Egypt denies this.

In January, the International Crisis Group said Egypt must tackle political and socio-economic problems in Sinai if it hopes to end militancy there.
 

Fearless

Mighty Mouse
Joined
Apr 24, 2003
Messages
4,460
Location
The Pink Torpedo Club
This should help...

The Palestinians are victims of Israel? You decide.
By Andrew White, June 10, 2007


In the Palestinian narrative of their own situation, they are the victims of Israel.

They "lost their country" because of Israel. They became refugees because of Israel. They are under occupation because of Israel. And Gaza is in chaos because of Israel.

Not only is this mindset deeply embedded in Palestinian society, with few mechanisms for self-questioning.

The narrative is now also accepted as fact among large sections of 'informed' international public opinion.

This narrative underlies the poor showing of Israel in public opinion surveys. It drives Amnesty International's stance on Israel, and the latest moves in Britain in favour of boycotting Israeli academics. And it receives persistent reinforcement via BBC coverage of Israel, and via other media outlets.

The narrative is, however, based on myths. The fact that it is becoming increasingly deep-rooted in liberal opinion doesn't make it true.

'Israel's creation took away Palestine from the Palestinians.'

Reality: In 1947 the internationally supported UN Partition Plan proposed a state for the Palestinian Arabs, coexisting side-by-side with Israel. While the leaders of the future Jewish state accepted the plan, Arab leaders rejected it.
Israel's creation did not cause, as The Economist expressed it recently, "the loss of Palestine". It was Arab leaders in 1947-8 who refused to agree to the creation of a Palestinian Arab state.

'Israel's creation brought about the Palestinian refugee problem in 1948.'

Reality: Arab aggression, not Israeli aggression, was the root cause of the Palestinian refugee problem. Arab opposition to Israel's existence brought about the conflict of 1947-8 which resulted in thousands of Palestinian Arabs becoming refugees.

While many Palestinians left willingly, others were forcibly displaced during the fighting. The argument rages as to how many Palestinian Arabs belong in each category.

But the basic fact is this: if the UN partition plan had been accepted by the Arabs, and Israel had been allowed to live in peace at birth, there would have been no Palestinian refugees in the first place.

It was not Israel's creation that brought about the Palestinian refugee problem, but Arab rejection of the creation of Israel.

'The Palestinians are the victims of Israel's 40 year military occupation of the West Bank.'

Reality: Jordanian violence brought about Israel's capture of the West Bank in 1967, and Arab and Palestinian rejectionism have perpetuated that presence since then.

Successive Israeli governments have declared that they seek territorial compromise and a two-state solution in the context of peace. It's the explicit refusal of the Palestinian leadership to recognise Israel's right to exist which now prevents negotiations which could make this happen.

The reason why the Palestinians have not achieved a West Bank state is not Israeli opposition to Palestinian statehood and human rights. It's Palestinian opposition to Israeli statehood and human rights. That Palestinian stance is supported by Iran and other rejectionist forces determined to sabotage a two-state solution.

It follows that Israel's continued presence in the territories is the consequence of Palestinian violence, not its cause. And most Israelis now accept that, however painful and traumatic it will be, Israel would need to withdraw from most of those parts of the West Bank where still has a presence, in the context of a durable peace.

"Israel has caused the chaos in Gaza."

Reality: In 2005 Israel physically destroyed its own presence in Gaza. The Palestinians were given the opportunity to build up a mini-state, and benefit from a gigantic financial windfall, which was promised by G8 countries and other members of the international community.

The Palestinians elected a Hamas leadership in January 2006 on a programme of rejection and incitement towards Israel. Hamas has since refused to budge, plunging Palestinian society into self-imposed isolation from the West.

The despair in Gaza is not due to the actions of Israel but, once again, to those of the Palestinian leadership. Meanwhile, the factional warfare in Gaza has claimed many more Palestinian lives in the last year than Israeli military activity.

The mindset of 'Palestinians as victims of Israel' recurs in many other areas.

Thus: 'The Palestinians are victims of Israel's security fence, the checkpoints, and the targeted attacks'. In reality, each of these policies has been forced on a reluctant Israel by the Palestinians' own behaviour.

Israel's share of responsibility

Of course, Israel is responsible day-to-day for a measure of Palestinian suffering, inconvenience and resentment. Most fair-minded Israelis recognise this. But the root cause of the Palestinians' situation is not Israel's actions, but their own. Yet, their culture of victimhood blinds them to this reality.

Furthermore, the mindset is constantly echoed by 'supporters' of the Palestinians around the world who demonise Israel, blame it in one-sided fashion for the Palestinians' plight, and do virtually nothing to encourage the Palestinians to acknowledge their responsibilities.

In so doing, these 'supporters' are actually damaging the Palestinians and helping to consign them to perpetual misery.

As long as the culture of Palestinian victimhood prevails, it will fuel the conflict, and make peace impossible to achieve.
 

born&raisedred

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Aug 25, 2006
Messages
296
the articles from an isreali publication, hardly objective, i'm sure if people wanted to waste their efforts they'd be plenty of articles blaming a whole plethorah of abominations on isreal, buts it's not constructive. this is one mans opinion not an objective dissection of the subject, therefore proves nowt:nono:

all the article attempts to do is justify the unjustifyable, to an eager audience.
 

Fearless

Mighty Mouse
Joined
Apr 24, 2003
Messages
4,460
Location
The Pink Torpedo Club
"The fact that there are these refugees is the direct consequence of the act of the Arab states in opposing partition and the Jewish state. The Arab states agree upon this policy unanimously and they must share in the solution of the problem."Emile Ghoury, secretary of the Palestinian Arab Higher Committee, in an interview with the Beirut Telegraph Sept. 6, 1948.

"The Arab state which had encouraged the Palestine Arabs to leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion armies, have failed to keep their promise to help these refugees."
– The Jordanian daily newspaper Falastin, Feb. 19, 1949.

"Who brought the Palestinians to Lebanon as refugees, suffering now from the malign attitude of newspapers and communal leaders, who have neither honor nor conscience? Who brought them over in dire straits and penniless, after they lost their honor? The Arab states, and Lebanon amongst them, did it."
– The Beirut Muslim weekly Kul-Shay, Aug. 19, 1951.

"The 15th May, 1948, arrived ... On that day the mufti of Jerusalem appealed to the Arabs of Palestine to leave the country, because the Arab armies were about to enter and fight in their stead."
– The Cairo daily Akhbar el Yom, Oct. 12, 1963.

"For the flight and fall of the other villages it is our leaders who are responsible because of their dissemination of rumors exaggerating Jewish crimes and describing them as atrocities in order to inflame the Arabs ... By spreading rumors of Jewish atrocities, killings of women and children etc., they instilled fear and terror in the hearts of the Arabs in Palestine, until they fled leaving their homes and properties to the enemy."
– The Jordanian daily newspaper Al Urdun, April 9, 1953.
 

holyland red

"Holier-than-thou fundamentalist"
Joined
Oct 19, 2001
Messages
19,098
Location
Haifa, Israel
Gaza: 2 UN workers killed in clashes

Infighting in PA continues, two United Nations employees killed in crossfire. Hamas bombs kill 22 Fatah members

Reuters Published: 06.13.07, 15:59 / Israel News

Two Palestinian employees of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) were shot dead in the Gaza Strip and the agency said on Wednesday it was suspending most of its operations due to the internal fighting.

UNRWA spokesman Christopher Gunness said one of the employees was shot in the abdomen on Tuesday and died on Wednesday. The other employee was shot in the head on Wednesday.

Gunness said they are the first UN employees killed in Gaza since internal fighting erupted between Hamas Islamists and President Mahmoud Abbas’s Fatah faction last year.

Gunness said they appeared to have been caught in the crossfire and not targeted because of their work for the UN Agency, which provides services to Palestinian refugees.

In view of increased threats to our staff, UNRWA has no choice but to scale back its operations in Gaza with immediate effect,” Gunness said. He said the agency was temporarily suspending all but emergency medical and food programs.
--------------------------------
Looks like the Arabs were better off when we were in control of the GS.
 

holyland red

"Holier-than-thou fundamentalist"
Joined
Oct 19, 2001
Messages
19,098
Location
Haifa, Israel
2 states solution?

Civil War / Hamastan, Fatahstan

By Amos Harel and Avi Issacharoff

Yasser Arafat must be turning in his grave. Barely two and a half years have gone by since his death and already his movement, Fatah, is steadily losing its last strongholds in the Gaza Strip.

For the past few months, on an off, the Palestinians - and with them, foreign media outlets and Israel's intelligence community - have debated whether the situation in Gaza can be termed civil war. The sights of the past several days, including the hesitant rearguard action that Fatah is waging against Hamas, evidently removed any lingering doubts. A civil war is raging in the Gaza Strip - and the Islamists have the upper hand.

The outcome in the offing will have far-reaching implications not only for the future of the Palestinian Authority, but also for its relations with Israel, and perhaps for the entire region. The old Palestinian dream of a real state is fading fast. The speech that President George Bush is scheduled to deliver on June 24 (the fifth anniversary of his speech laying out a two-state vision for the Middle East) will have to undergo substantial revision. Hamas's takeover of Gaza, which yesterday seemed closer than ever, is destined to split the territories into two entities that are politically and even culturally separate: Hamastan (the Gaza Strip) and Fatahstan (the West Bank).

Anyone in Israel side still contemplating the question of a Palestinian partner might also need to do some rethinking. In Gaza, at least, it seems there is nobody left for Israel to talk to. The Rafah crossing yesterday had a long line of Palestinians seeking to leave Gaza. Haaretz received letters from Palestinians asking Prime Minister Ehud Olmert to save them from Hamas.

That, at the moment, looks like the last thing Olmert plans to do. Officials in the government and defense establishment are following developments with grave concern. But Israel, so long as it can afford to, will steer clear of military involvement in Gaza. The directives given to the army's Southern Command talk about a high state of alert and readiness, but also restraint. The Israel Defense Forces will not enter the internal Palestinian conflict unless it is forcibly dragged into it. Qassam rocket fire will not elicit a wide-scale ground incursion, particularly when the chief of staff is still extremely preoccupied with preparing for a possible flare-up in the Syrian arena.

PA Chairman Mahmoud Abbas (Abu Mazen) finally wised up yesterday in describing the latest round of battles in Gaza as "a coup attempt." But his people continued to show themselves utterly helpless in the fighting against Hamas. The Islamic organization took control of entire areas of the Gaza Strip, while Fatah forces were barricaded in the headquarters of the PA security services and feared to step outside.

Particularly glaring is the Fatah leadership's strange absence from Gaza over the past few days. Abbas, Mohammed Dahlan, Rashid Abu Shabak, Samir Masharawi and others are not in the Strip, each with his own excuses. These commanders have adopted the slogan "after you" and left the field commanders to their own devices.

The fact that Hamas was not a party to the rocket fire aimed at Israel yesterday is another cause of concern for Fatah. In the previous rounds of internecine conflict, when Hamas felt it could not win the fight, it turned to the Qassams for a magic solution: diverting the tensions in Israel's direction. But this time, Hamas apparently believes it is on the verge of a historic victory, as early as within the next two days. To that end, on Monday it announced a call-up of all its militants and began implementing an orderly plan of action whose stated object is to eliminate Fatah in the Gaza Strip.

The battle may be decided today. Yesterday, there were signs that Fatah was gradually giving up on barricading some of the smaller regional headquarters and instead holding onto several larger headquarters located close together in Gaza City and the vicinity. If this area falls to Hamas, it could spell the end of Fatah in the Gaza Strip. And if Fatah manages to fight back, we will likely witness a resumption of Hamas rocket fire on Sderot.
 

Feedingseagulls

Full Member
Joined
May 25, 2004
Messages
11,825
Location
Beyond Good & Evil
I beg to differ. Firstly, it is not coincidental that the Guardian title for the GS violence story reads: "Secret UN report condemns US for Middle East failures". This is poor journalism worthy of Pravda, and I'm afraid is what the newspaper's loyal readers deserve.
So what exactly is your gripe here?

That direct condemnation of the US as the party responsible for scuppering M-E negotiations only occurs briefly in the early section?

Is it the fact that a 'secret' report is now public - leaked about 5 weeks after it was sent out?

Or is it that the Guardian and the UN envoy criticize anyone other than your favoured targets?

... as mentioned in the report) Hamas refused "to commit to non-violence, recognise Israel and accept previous agreements".
The context of this quote is rather different to your employment thereof...

The continuation reads:

When Hamas refused to sign up to the principles, the international community halted direct funding to the Palestinian government and Israel started to freeze the monthly tax revenues that it had agreed to pass to the Palestinians

For anyone not wholly committed to the Israel-is-always-right school of thought the meaning is obvious - given the topic of the report. The economic and general aid sanctions adopted against Palestine were both counter-productive and biassed. The stresses have not aided the anti-activist cause - instead they have seemingly fueled another bout of resentment, anger and resulting violence.

Israel has, over too many years, been guilty of rejections of international agreements, refused to acknowledge the possibility of a Palestinian state, and been guilty of levels of violence against a civilian population that resulted in almost universal condemnation. It never suffered anything like these sanctions - and bleats loudly about any possibility of cosmetic withdrawal of contact from its Universities.

The author of the report confirms what significance the decision about sanctions had:

"effectively transformed the Quartet from a negotiation-promoting foursome guided by a common document [the road map for peace] into a body that was all-but imposing sanctions on a freely elected government of a people under occupation as well as setting unattainable preconditions for dialogue"
 

Feedingseagulls

Full Member
Joined
May 25, 2004
Messages
11,825
Location
Beyond Good & Evil
the articles from an isreali publication, hardly objective, i'm sure if people wanted to waste their efforts they'd be plenty of articles blaming a whole plethorah of abominations on isreal, buts it's not constructive. this is one mans opinion not an objective dissection of the subject, therefore proves nowt:nono:

all the article attempts to do is justify the unjustifyable, to an eager audience.
More to the point, it contains so many blatant lies, exaggerations, omissions etc. it's only fit for fodder for the pro-Israeli sheep tbh.
 

holyland red

"Holier-than-thou fundamentalist"
Joined
Oct 19, 2001
Messages
19,098
Location
Haifa, Israel
"effectively transformed the Quartet from a negotiation-promoting foursome guided by a common document [the road map for peace] into a body that was all-but imposing sanctions on a freely elected government of a people under occupation as well as setting unattainable preconditions for dialogue"
The quartet- US, EU Russia and the UN impose sanctions on a murderous regime. You, LABOB and your copy of the Guardian are on your own.
 

Feedingseagulls

Full Member
Joined
May 25, 2004
Messages
11,825
Location
Beyond Good & Evil
Not forgetting Mein Kempf, the Hamas Charter and the Protocols.
Truly mindless rhetoric - worthy only of someone who believes that only reports praising israel can possibly be seen as objective.

What so many pro-Israelis fail to understand is just how laughable their position is to their critics: only a very small minority actually believe the Israeli line - the vast majority (who could care less) compare the arguments of both sides and realise that, whilst the Israeli's opponents are often reprehensible, most of Israel's propaganda is directly contrary to the truth. Israel are (and have been for many decades) thoroughly wedded to remaining part of the problem rather than the solution.
 

Feedingseagulls

Full Member
Joined
May 25, 2004
Messages
11,825
Location
Beyond Good & Evil
The quartet- US, EU Russia and the UN impose sanctions on a murderous regime. You, LABOB and your copy of the Guardian are on your own.
On that basis they'd have been entitled to impose sanctions on Israel many times over - it's the US-Israeli alliance that have generally been 'on their own.' Unfortunately for peace in the Middle east the US have carried a veto and employed it in pursuit of it's misguided policies too many times.
 

holyland red

"Holier-than-thou fundamentalist"
Joined
Oct 19, 2001
Messages
19,098
Location
Haifa, Israel
...and of course you're ignoring the fact that this is a quote from the UN-envoy's report - not a Guardian editorial.
You're ignoring the fact that the UN supports the sanctions on the Palestinian government because it refuses "to commit to non-violence, recognise Israel and accept previous agreements".
 

holyland red

"Holier-than-thou fundamentalist"
Joined
Oct 19, 2001
Messages
19,098
Location
Haifa, Israel
It's a tunnel that we have to dig on the Palestinian-Egyptian border, in order to flood all the tunnels used for smuggling weapons to the GS.
 

Feedingseagulls

Full Member
Joined
May 25, 2004
Messages
11,825
Location
Beyond Good & Evil
You're ignoring the fact that the UN supports the sanctions on the Palestinian government because it refuses "to commit to non-violence, recognise Israel and accept previous agreements".
That support is strongly criticized by the report - which is what the article actually was about - no recognition of what negotiation steps the Palestinians were willing to take though.


... and you're ignoring the fact that, barring US vetos, similar sanctions should have been imposed many times on Israel, when calls for certain actions did make it past the US veto and made it into resolutions you resolutely ignored them.

..and, of course, once again, your idea these viewpoints are just mine LABOB's and the Guardians is laughable in the extreme.
 

Fearless

Mighty Mouse
Joined
Apr 24, 2003
Messages
4,460
Location
The Pink Torpedo Club
And use illegally occupied territory they'd invaded as the location as well.

Feeding - I rang up your comrades at Stop The War today and asked why they hadn't organized a protest march against the Lebanese pounding Palestinian innocents, the Turks going cross border into Iraq on a Kurd fest, or Hamas executing Fatah officials in front of their wives and kids.

Three governments to bash all at once. Bargain.

"....er....well....er....well.."
 

Feedingseagulls

Full Member
Joined
May 25, 2004
Messages
11,825
Location
Beyond Good & Evil
OK, you have de Soto on your side. Meanwhile, in the red corner are the US, EU, Russia and the UN.
Except the report clearly places the fault for this decision on the US forcing the issue - so only your usual support there then.

Still no response to the fact that you should have been treated worse than this for what Israel has done over the decades I see.
 

holyland red

"Holier-than-thou fundamentalist"
Joined
Oct 19, 2001
Messages
19,098
Location
Haifa, Israel
Except the report clearly places the fault for this decision on the US forcing the issue - so only your usual support there then.

Still no response to the fact that you should have been treated worse than this for what Israel has done over the decades I see.
Oh, I see. When the UN criticizes Israel then the latter is in breach of international law, but when the UN finally agrees that Israel shouldn't dismantle itself then the UN stance is "forced by the US".

You're pathetic, FS.
 

holyland red

"Holier-than-thou fundamentalist"
Joined
Oct 19, 2001
Messages
19,098
Location
Haifa, Israel
Feeding - I rang up your comrades at Stop The War today and asked why they hadn't organized a protest march against the Lebanese pounding Palestinian innocents, the Turks going cross border into Iraq on a Kurd fest, or Hamas executing Fatah officials in front of their wives and kids.

Three governments to bash all at once. Bargain.

"....er....well....er....well.."
Siniora, Abu Mazen and the Kurds are all US agents, and the rage of the people is deserved.
 

Feedingseagulls

Full Member
Joined
May 25, 2004
Messages
11,825
Location
Beyond Good & Evil
Feeding - I rang up your comrades at Stop The War today and asked why they hadn't organized a protest march against the Lebanese pounding Palestinian innocents, the Turks going cross border into Iraq on a Kurd fest, or Hamas executing Fatah officials in front of their wives and kids.
Really? you didn't think to make your concern more tangible and effective by becoming involved in protests about these issues then? I think you'll find that protests involve more than just marches tbh. and protests have certainly been made.

Campaigns criticizing Turkish actions against Kurds are long-standing and you'll never catch me holidaying in Turkey because of their government.
 

Feedingseagulls

Full Member
Joined
May 25, 2004
Messages
11,825
Location
Beyond Good & Evil
Oh, I see. When the UN criticizes Israel then the latter is in breach of international law, but when the UN finally agrees that Israel shouldn't dismantle itself then the UN stance is "forced by the US".

You're pathetic, FS.
Actually it's the highlighted phrase that's pathetic. Giving back occupied territories is not 'dismantling' - those territories are not part of Israel - and will not be unless ratified by negotiation.

Israel has regularly broken international law - so have their opponents - but the so-called 'pre-conditions' for negotiation with the Palestinian elected government were never actually pre-conditions at all, they have merely been presented that way (it's about 2/3 to 3/4 of the way through the pdf report.)
Israel also failed to meet the required 'conditions' but received no punishment.

One problem with the conditions placed on Palestine stemmed from the constitutional requirements on US and EU representatives about who they could negotiate with - not conditions that were actually required in the furtherance of peace.
 

Fearless

Mighty Mouse
Joined
Apr 24, 2003
Messages
4,460
Location
The Pink Torpedo Club
Really? you didn't think to make your concern more tangible and effective by becoming involved in protests about these issues then? I think you'll find that protests involve more than just marches tbh. and protests have certainly been made.

Campaigns criticizing Turkish actions against Kurds are long-standing and you'll never catch me holidaying in Turkey because of their government.

Oh come on...what protests?

Are our unions going to boycott Lebananese students? Are they going to refuse to eat Turkish Delight? Will George Bin Galloway demand Hamas stop executing thier own brothers?

I don't think so!
 

Fearless

Mighty Mouse
Joined
Apr 24, 2003
Messages
4,460
Location
The Pink Torpedo Club
And another thing.

Seeing as you refuse to holiday in Turkey - which is noble and will save you a fortune on Imodium and bicycle clips, why not fly out to Tel Aviv?

You know you want to.
 

Feedingseagulls

Full Member
Joined
May 25, 2004
Messages
11,825
Location
Beyond Good & Evil
The Gaza beach is beautiful, and as this clip shows I'm sure the regime matches your taste:

http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART1/595/695.html

BTW, the poor guy was an "advisor" to the previous regime which you also liked. He's a senior member of the Al-Aqsa brigades.
What, in the Goddess' name, makes you think I 'liked' either regime?

The protests are not about whether you like the regime they're about what it is appropriate to do to them, their people, and their country.

Off-hand, I'd say that the last regime I 'liked' that was subjected to illegal violence by another country would have been the Sandanistas in Nicaragua - what they were doing in terms of organising education and social/health care would have been positive for the country.