Given that Hamas' charter calls openy for the destruction of the Zionist Entity, and for it to become Muslim land, any - and I mean any - negotiation with Israel is seen as heresy.
Palestinian Window Chucking
- Thread starter Fearless
- Start date
Im certainly no expert, but I have no loyalties either way and it allows me to see things a little clearer, I would argue.
If you keep illegally occupying land then it is always going to fuel the fire and hatred towards the occupier. When people are angry and feel an injustice has been done, they are far more suceptible to extreme ideas like 'destroying' Israel.
The PLO was founded in 1964, so the injustice the Palestinians feel involves Jews living in Israel and not "the occupation". You are entitled to sympathize with that or keep your impartiality. Obviously, Israel will have to fight back despite the feeling of injustice on the Palestinian side.
Like I said im no expert on this and correct me if im wrong, but werent Hamas or Fatah pretty close to agreeing a two state solution before the Lebanon war last year disrupted things?
Hamas never agreed to the existence of Israel. What the two parties agreed on was limiting the struggle to the territories until Israel withdraws completely and accepts the right of return. This:
a. means the end of Israel as a democratic Jewish state.
b. still fell short of calling for end of violence after reaching that "solution".
If Israel offered a viable two state solutions, for example one that didnt take all the aquaducts and other resources, and stopped resettling people in land that isnt theirs then id imagine it would go a long way to pacifying the Palestinians. If from there there was a threat to Israels existence in terms of military attack I dont think the international community would deny Israel a right to respond.
Resources? these are excuses that could have been settled easily if they were the real issue. As for international backing after we withdraw...no thanks. Memories from Lebanon last summer are still fresh.
Unfortunately we have to take a realist perpsective and admit none of this will happen, Israel will never relinquish power whilst it doesnt have to. But like Britain and America exacerbate the security threat by being in Iraq, id say the same goes for Israel in the West Bank.
A. Israel has to, for its own sake as well as that of the Palestinians.
B. Israel can't as long as the Palestinians don't give up their dream of getting rid of us.
If you keep illegally occupying land then it is always going to fuel the fire and hatred towards the occupier. When people are angry and feel an injustice has been done, they are far more suceptible to extreme ideas like 'destroying' Israel.
The PLO was founded in 1964, so the injustice the Palestinians feel involves Jews living in Israel and not "the occupation". You are entitled to sympathize with that or keep your impartiality. Obviously, Israel will have to fight back despite the feeling of injustice on the Palestinian side.
Like I said im no expert on this and correct me if im wrong, but werent Hamas or Fatah pretty close to agreeing a two state solution before the Lebanon war last year disrupted things?
Hamas never agreed to the existence of Israel. What the two parties agreed on was limiting the struggle to the territories until Israel withdraws completely and accepts the right of return. This:
a. means the end of Israel as a democratic Jewish state.
b. still fell short of calling for end of violence after reaching that "solution".
If Israel offered a viable two state solutions, for example one that didnt take all the aquaducts and other resources, and stopped resettling people in land that isnt theirs then id imagine it would go a long way to pacifying the Palestinians. If from there there was a threat to Israels existence in terms of military attack I dont think the international community would deny Israel a right to respond.
Resources? these are excuses that could have been settled easily if they were the real issue. As for international backing after we withdraw...no thanks. Memories from Lebanon last summer are still fresh.
Unfortunately we have to take a realist perpsective and admit none of this will happen, Israel will never relinquish power whilst it doesnt have to. But like Britain and America exacerbate the security threat by being in Iraq, id say the same goes for Israel in the West Bank.
A. Israel has to, for its own sake as well as that of the Palestinians.
B. Israel can't as long as the Palestinians don't give up their dream of getting rid of us.
As was discussed in a previous thread on this issue Hamas has stated that it is willing to recognise Israel in return for territory
We had settlements in Sinai too, including the beautiful town of Yamit, not to mention the oil fields.
As shown in the other thread where you argued that Hamas wasn't winning the civil war in the GS, your knowledge of the conflict is lacking.
You also fail to back your claim with quotes of Hamas leaders acknowledging Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state in the ME under any circumstances. We are supposed to believe that Hamas agrees to a 2-state solution because Mozza from RedCafe repeats his posts ad nauseum?
You couldn't hold them, so negotiated the peace deal, you can hold the west bank so you wont
We had settlements in Sinai too, including the beautiful town of Yamit, not to mention the oil fields.
I never said they were not winning it, I said a limited engagement didn't mean they could wipe them out as you seemed to think.
From the Hamas Wiki - However, on February 13, 2006, in an interview in Russian newspaper Nezavisimaya Gazeta, the same Khaled Mashal declared that Hamas would stop armed struggle against Israel if it recognized the 1967 borders, withdrew itself from all Palestinian occupied territories (including the West Bank and East Jerusalem) and recognized Palestinian rights that would include the "right of return".
The 1973 war proved that we could. Learn your history, son.
Holding the Sinai peninsula was easier than holding the WB (which we can't do forever) because it only had a small local population.
Exactly. Hamas agrees to stop the armed struggle as long as Israel agrees to dismantle itself peacefully. Thank you and Hamas.
The 1973 war proved how vulnerable it was seeing as Egypt swept past your defences in the area, you think Israel wanted to spend an eternity under that threat?
Do you think in every peace negotiation both sides get exactly what they want? Its a starting point, you seem to think the deal must be agreed before the negotiation starts
Despite Egypt having the best possible start to the war it was the superpowers that stopped us from coming back with big rocks on our tanks, singing "we got our pyramids back".
There was no military threat from Egypt ever since, and in fact it is argued the 1973 war convinced them they'll get nothing by force.
If there was no military threat from Egypt it proves all the more that it wasn't interested in keeping the territories, hence the peace negotiations.
Didn't Israeli forces end up to the West of the Suez Canal in 73?
Indeed Israeli imperialism got us a chunk of Africa for a while.
Actually, despite an early remark, it seems that it is the pro-Israeli lobby who are most keen to turn this into a debate about 'the occupation'.
In the course of their points there are the usual inaccuracies and misleading omissions - but if I spell them out I will no doubt be said to be blaming EVERYTHING that happens on Israel - even if I am merely pointing out errors in their portrayal.
... and here was I thinking this might be an amusing story of defenestration through the ages!
In the course of their points there are the usual inaccuracies and misleading omissions - but if I spell them out I will no doubt be said to be blaming EVERYTHING that happens on Israel - even if I am merely pointing out errors in their portrayal.
... and here was I thinking this might be an amusing story of defenestration through the ages!
Fearless starts a thread about the new Palestinian OS Windows hasta la Vista, and the usual suspects show up pointing fingers at Microsoft Israel.
I thought you were holding out for the new Pro-Isaiah release?Fearless starts a thread about the new Palestinian OS Windows hasta la Vista, and the usual suspects show up pointing fingers at Microsoft Israel.
I don't like a lot of things the Israelis have done in the past but when you look at the Palestinian situation now - Hamas and Fatah cannot live with each other so how can the Israelis trust either
Actually all true zionists use Apple.
It was there first, a minority, and expensive.
Compatibilty is still an issue, though left wing versions can run windows too, but that risks sucking in the 118,000 malicious viruses determined to erase the entire partition.
That would be because your operating system is fundamentally flawed in conception. Most of what you treat as viruses are in fact beneficial software add-ons. Also, and unfortunately, the imposed software can only manipulate the hardware through tenuous and illogically chosen linkages - so the system would eventually succumb to the stress it itself generated - this is only exacerbated by it's inability to assimilate other programs.
at least 21 dead in heavy fighting in the Northern GS tonight. Hamas took control of a Fatah HQ in Jebalyia. Fighting still going on...
It is truly tragic what is happening there.at least 21 dead in heavy fighting in the Northern GS tonight. Hamas took control of a Fatah HQ in Jebalyia. Fighting still going on...
There would be no need for Hamas and Fatah to exist if peace broke out...
Do you think that would honestly be the case?
what are you on about?
A war between two gangs of terrorists is not THAT tragic.
They only exist due to occupation
the PLO was founded in 1964. what is the occuaption you are referring to? Do you agree with Hamas definition, hence it will exist as long as the state of Israel does?
Actually today, Apple has released it's superb Safari browser for window users, therby making redundant Anti Spyware, Anti Virus and Anti-Semitic software for you a thing of the past. No more enemies within.
Hamas came into existence in 1988.
Hamas' behaviour depends on what Israel do. Israel should offer negotiations along the line of 1967 borders. These must be negotiations for peace and acceptance of Israel as a Jewish state on Hamas' part. I am sure there would be a profound change in Hamas' declared aims.
Hamas came into existence in 1988.
This is true, but your previous post mentioning Fatah and Hamas was misleading and suggested Palestinian violence is a consequence of Israeli occupation.
Hamas' behaviour depends on what Israel do.
Of course it is. According to Hamas if Israel agrees to dismantle itself (see Mozza's post above) Hamas wouls cease violence.
Israel should offer negotiations along the line of 1967 borders.
Israel already has, and Hamas opposed the negotiations. Hamas still refuses to negotiate with Israel, as it does not recognize it
These must be negotiations for peace and acceptance of Israel as a Jewish state on Hamas' part.
Agreed. Can you run for Palestinian presidency according to Palestinian law?
I am sure there would be a profound change in Hamas' declared aims.
I'm not sure of anything concerning Hamas or Fatah.
This is true, but your previous post mentioning Fatah and Hamas was misleading and suggested Palestinian violence is a consequence of Israeli occupation.
Hamas' behaviour depends on what Israel do.
Of course it is. According to Hamas if Israel agrees to dismantle itself (see Mozza's post above) Hamas wouls cease violence.
Israel should offer negotiations along the line of 1967 borders.
Israel already has, and Hamas opposed the negotiations. Hamas still refuses to negotiate with Israel, as it does not recognize it
These must be negotiations for peace and acceptance of Israel as a Jewish state on Hamas' part.
Agreed. Can you run for Palestinian presidency according to Palestinian law?
I am sure there would be a profound change in Hamas' declared aims.
I'm not sure of anything concerning Hamas or Fatah.
I believe they call that territory they want "Israel".
Jason, you should take a look at today's Guardian. It appears that the US is responsible for the civil war in the GS. So say the UN and the Guardian.
Secret UN report condemns US for Middle East failures
Envoy's damning verdict revealed as violence takes Gaza closer to civil war
Rory McCarthy in Jerusalem and Ian Williams in New York
Wednesday June 13, 2007
The highest ranking UN official in Israel has warned that American pressure has "pummelled into submission" the UN's role as an impartial Middle East negotiator in a damning confidential report.
The 53-page "End of Mission Report" by Alvaro de Soto, the UN's Middle East envoy, obtained by the Guardian, presents a devastating account of failed diplomacy and condemns the sweeping boycott of the Palestinian government. It is dated May 5 this year, just before Mr de Soto stepped down.
The revelations from inside the UN come after another day of escalating violence in Gaza, when at least 26 Palestinians were killed after Hamas fighters launched a major assault. Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, head of the rival Fatah group, warned he was facing an attempted coup.
Mr de Soto condemns Israel for setting unachievable preconditions for talks and the Palestinians for their violence. Western-led peace negotiations have become largely irrelevant, he says.
Mr de Soto is a Peruvian diplomat who worked for the UN for 25 years in El Salvador, Cyprus and Western Sahara. He says:
· The international boycott of the Palestinians, introduced after Hamas won elections last year, was "at best extremely short-sighted" and had "devastating consequences" for the Palestinian people
· Israel has adopted an "essentially rejectionist" stance towards the Palestinians
· The Quartet of Middle East negotiators - the US, the EU, Russia and the UN - has become a "side-show"
·The Palestinian record of stopping violence against Israel is "patchy at best, reprehensible at worst"
Mr de Soto acknowledges in the report that he is its sole author. It was meant only for senior UN officials, and its wording is far more critical than the public pronouncements of UN diplomats. Last night, Mr de Soto, who is in New York, told the Guardian: "It is a confidential document and not intended for publication."
In January last year, the Quartet called on the newly elected Hamas government to commit to non-violence, recognise Israel and accept previous agreements. When Hamas refused to sign up to the principles, the international community halted direct funding to the Palestinian government and Israel started to freeze the monthly tax revenues that it had agreed to pass to the Palestinians. Several hundred million dollars remain frozen.
Mr de Soto, who had opposed the boycott, said this position "effectively transformed the Quartet from a negotiation-promoting foursome guided by a common document [the road map for peace] into a body that was all-but imposing sanctions on a freely elected government of a people under occupation as well as setting unattainable preconditions for dialogue".
The EU said yesterday that there was an imminent risk of civil war if fighting went on, and UN secretary-general Ban Ki-moon urged support for Mr Abbas's efforts "to restore law and order".
In the heaviest day of fighting in Gaza for months, Hamas appeared to make its first concerted effort to seize power in Gaza. There was a wave of co-ordinated attacks, which appeared to overwhelm the larger but less effective Fatah force. "Decisiveness will be in the field," said Islam Shahwan, a spokesman for the Hamas military wing.
Fatah's central committee called an emergency meeting in Ramallah, in the West Bank, and said it would suspend the activities of its ministers in the government. Fatah would pull out of the government if the fighting failed to stop, it said.
For the first time in several weeks, fighting spread to the West Bank when Fatah gunmen attacked a Hamas television studio in Ramallah and kidnapped a Hamas deputy cabinet minister from the city.
The day began with a rocket attack on the private house in Gaza of Ismail Haniyeh, the prime minister and a Hamas leader. He was in the building but was not hurt. Fighting spread across Gaza City and within hours Hamas fighters issued warnings over loudspeakers calling on all Fatah security forces to pull out of their bases and return home. At about 2pm Hamas gunmen seized control of several small Fatah bases and one large base in northern Gaza, where there were heavy casualties when Hamas fighters fired mortars and rocket-propelled grenades at the compound.
Several Fatah officers complained that they had received no orders during the day. Mr Abbas tried calling for a truce, and later Fatah ordered its officers to fight back.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,2101677,00.html
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Forgive me for being blunt, but those conclusions do seem to be fairly even handed, blaming all sides for the situation.
You may not agree with the conclusions, but it seems to be one man's opinion of what went wrong
Envoy's damning verdict revealed as violence takes Gaza closer to civil war
Rory McCarthy in Jerusalem and Ian Williams in New York
Wednesday June 13, 2007
The highest ranking UN official in Israel has warned that American pressure has "pummelled into submission" the UN's role as an impartial Middle East negotiator in a damning confidential report.
The 53-page "End of Mission Report" by Alvaro de Soto, the UN's Middle East envoy, obtained by the Guardian, presents a devastating account of failed diplomacy and condemns the sweeping boycott of the Palestinian government. It is dated May 5 this year, just before Mr de Soto stepped down.
The revelations from inside the UN come after another day of escalating violence in Gaza, when at least 26 Palestinians were killed after Hamas fighters launched a major assault. Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, head of the rival Fatah group, warned he was facing an attempted coup.
Mr de Soto condemns Israel for setting unachievable preconditions for talks and the Palestinians for their violence. Western-led peace negotiations have become largely irrelevant, he says.
Mr de Soto is a Peruvian diplomat who worked for the UN for 25 years in El Salvador, Cyprus and Western Sahara. He says:
· The international boycott of the Palestinians, introduced after Hamas won elections last year, was "at best extremely short-sighted" and had "devastating consequences" for the Palestinian people
· Israel has adopted an "essentially rejectionist" stance towards the Palestinians
· The Quartet of Middle East negotiators - the US, the EU, Russia and the UN - has become a "side-show"
·The Palestinian record of stopping violence against Israel is "patchy at best, reprehensible at worst"
Mr de Soto acknowledges in the report that he is its sole author. It was meant only for senior UN officials, and its wording is far more critical than the public pronouncements of UN diplomats. Last night, Mr de Soto, who is in New York, told the Guardian: "It is a confidential document and not intended for publication."
In January last year, the Quartet called on the newly elected Hamas government to commit to non-violence, recognise Israel and accept previous agreements. When Hamas refused to sign up to the principles, the international community halted direct funding to the Palestinian government and Israel started to freeze the monthly tax revenues that it had agreed to pass to the Palestinians. Several hundred million dollars remain frozen.
Mr de Soto, who had opposed the boycott, said this position "effectively transformed the Quartet from a negotiation-promoting foursome guided by a common document [the road map for peace] into a body that was all-but imposing sanctions on a freely elected government of a people under occupation as well as setting unattainable preconditions for dialogue".
The EU said yesterday that there was an imminent risk of civil war if fighting went on, and UN secretary-general Ban Ki-moon urged support for Mr Abbas's efforts "to restore law and order".
In the heaviest day of fighting in Gaza for months, Hamas appeared to make its first concerted effort to seize power in Gaza. There was a wave of co-ordinated attacks, which appeared to overwhelm the larger but less effective Fatah force. "Decisiveness will be in the field," said Islam Shahwan, a spokesman for the Hamas military wing.
Fatah's central committee called an emergency meeting in Ramallah, in the West Bank, and said it would suspend the activities of its ministers in the government. Fatah would pull out of the government if the fighting failed to stop, it said.
For the first time in several weeks, fighting spread to the West Bank when Fatah gunmen attacked a Hamas television studio in Ramallah and kidnapped a Hamas deputy cabinet minister from the city.
The day began with a rocket attack on the private house in Gaza of Ismail Haniyeh, the prime minister and a Hamas leader. He was in the building but was not hurt. Fighting spread across Gaza City and within hours Hamas fighters issued warnings over loudspeakers calling on all Fatah security forces to pull out of their bases and return home. At about 2pm Hamas gunmen seized control of several small Fatah bases and one large base in northern Gaza, where there were heavy casualties when Hamas fighters fired mortars and rocket-propelled grenades at the compound.
Several Fatah officers complained that they had received no orders during the day. Mr Abbas tried calling for a truce, and later Fatah ordered its officers to fight back.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,2101677,00.html
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Forgive me for being blunt, but those conclusions do seem to be fairly even handed, blaming all sides for the situation.
You may not agree with the conclusions, but it seems to be one man's opinion of what went wrong
In the past 24 hours, 19 Palestinians have died in the deadliest bout of Fatah-Hamas infighting in months.
The victims have been tossed from rooftops, executed at point blank range, and gunned down in hospital wards.
Fatah’s commander in Northern Gaza Jamal Abu Jideyan, was dragged from his house late last night and shot 45 times in the streets.
His brother, who just minutes earlier had made an impassioned plea for mercy live on Palestinian radio, was also killed.
“They’re firing at us, firing RPGs, firing mortars. We’re not Jews,” the Fatah commander’s brother screamed into the telephone live on air, just minutes before Hamas bullets ended his life.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/06/12/wgaza312.xml
The victims have been tossed from rooftops, executed at point blank range, and gunned down in hospital wards.
Fatah’s commander in Northern Gaza Jamal Abu Jideyan, was dragged from his house late last night and shot 45 times in the streets.
His brother, who just minutes earlier had made an impassioned plea for mercy live on Palestinian radio, was also killed.
“They’re firing at us, firing RPGs, firing mortars. We’re not Jews,” the Fatah commander’s brother screamed into the telephone live on air, just minutes before Hamas bullets ended his life.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/06/12/wgaza312.xml
The UN's Report
http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Guardian/documents/2007/06/12/DeSotoReport.pdf
Hope this link works, if not, let me know!
http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Guardian/documents/2007/06/12/DeSotoReport.pdf
Hope this link works, if not, let me know!