I think Jones at CM is a train wreck waiting to happen. He doesn't have the qualities necessary. He's a good stop gap option but that's about it. His performance was pretty decent on Sunday but he's already shown where his best position lies. And it definitely is not at CM.
Phil Jones
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
I'm amazed he's getting as much praise as he is, it was a game in which we totally conceded the midfield.
Yes he was a "nuisense" but I personally want more than that in our midfield, I want players who can help us control the midfield much more than we did at the weekend.
Jones' job was to press and win the ball. He did that extremely well. We conceded the midfield due to a team-wide inability to hold onto the ball.
The defenders all the way up to the strikers are responsible for that. It was evident even more so when Kagawa was taken off.
The defenders all the way up to the strikers are responsible for that. It was evident even more so when Kagawa was taken off.
Don't like him in midfield personally, would've preferred Cleverley there next to Carrick who have a good partnership. I understand that we might have wanted to be more defensively solid but Cleverley in other games has sat deeper and still done quite well.
Jones can do a specific job in midfield against teams which require it - that is a Ball Winning, Defensive midfielder who will get about, harrass and press and support the back four.
It is pretty rare that we require this type of player nowadays, but if facing a team such as Chelsea, who have 3 very talent AMs and play a very narrow formation, having someone in the mix there to disrupt them can prove invaluable.
On the whole I think its obvious Jones will end up as a CB, but I maintain (and this goes for all players) that playing in other positions can greatly help a players development and understanding of their own position. If you know your own role, but also know the roles of the players around you inside out then it is surely a big advantage.
Also I think playing in midfield will help develop some of Jones' qualities like passing and positioning, in general.
But he cant half cross a ball...it does seem a waste to have him in a central position when he has proven his crossing to be such a useful tool.
It is pretty rare that we require this type of player nowadays, but if facing a team such as Chelsea, who have 3 very talent AMs and play a very narrow formation, having someone in the mix there to disrupt them can prove invaluable.
On the whole I think its obvious Jones will end up as a CB, but I maintain (and this goes for all players) that playing in other positions can greatly help a players development and understanding of their own position. If you know your own role, but also know the roles of the players around you inside out then it is surely a big advantage.
Also I think playing in midfield will help develop some of Jones' qualities like passing and positioning, in general.
But he cant half cross a ball...it does seem a waste to have him in a central position when he has proven his crossing to be such a useful tool.
Cleverley and Fletcher have also shown they can deliver a very good ball, doesnt stop them playing centrally
Where is his best position then? At the moment I dont think it is clear at all - he has done well in various positions and I have not seen him stand out as more comfortable at any particular one - if anything I would say he looked better at CM or RB
I hope to see him play more at CM - I think he does have the necessary qualities and just needs more experience there.
Let's be fair. We conceded the midfield because we replaced the tiring Cleverley and Kagawa with a striker and an off form Valencia. Rather than due to Jones in midfield. It would have been quite different if Giggs and Anderson had come on and welbeck had gone off for Rooney instead.
Completely agree, I think if Anderson had been brought on instead of Rooney we would have done much better and not had to rely on pointless clearances to nobody.
Nah mate he really doesn't. Not for me at least. His positional sense is horrible for one and he fails to provide a necessary outlet as any CM should do. He doesn't have the technical qualities either. It's not good enough to play Jones as the archetypal destroyer where all he does is break up play. At United, you have to be involved in the build-up and if you're not positively impacting it, you're going to stick out.
We all know his best position is at CB. If that performance against West Ham doesn't convince, then I'm not sure what will.
The chief has spoken
Agree with this.
Not sure if its directly attributable to Jones, but Spurs never waltzed through us like they did at OT. It's just a shame we sat back, hoofing aimless clearances, which came straight back.
Why not? As far as I am concerned that is exactly the type of player we have been missing in certain matches recently - plus it is early days for him in midfield and given time his positional sense is sure to improve.
Both Capello and SAF have chosen to deploy him in the midfield on various occasions - so they obviously see something you dont, as I said I hope to see more of him there and see if he can grow into the position.
Not sure why many object to using Jones as a ball winning CM as its the role he played for Blackburn in the season before we bought him. I don't see why given a bit more technical and positional training he can't do the same for United.
I'm torn between what I think will happen with Jones as far as being a midfielder goes, but at the moment our main weakness is the way we lose control of the football after taking the lead. Our defence seems to be in a bit better shape recently, but our constant surrendering of huge periods of the game because of our inability to keep possession is killing us.
Playing Jones was quite influential in that happening against Spurs in my opinion and, although he did play well, playing him more against top teams will lead to similar problems until he becomes far more accomplished on the ball. I don't know if we've been aiming to defend leads, but doing so would be far easier if we worked on keeping the ball instead of lining up more defensively. Doing the latter has just led to a complete onslaught more often than not.
Playing Jones was quite influential in that happening against Spurs in my opinion and, although he did play well, playing him more against top teams will lead to similar problems until he becomes far more accomplished on the ball. I don't know if we've been aiming to defend leads, but doing so would be far easier if we worked on keeping the ball instead of lining up more defensively. Doing the latter has just led to a complete onslaught more often than not.
Pretty much all good destroyers are decent on the ball though, considerably better than Jones currently is. The likes of Busquets, Mascherano, Makelele, Van Bommel etc.. might not have been the most creative players but they could all move the ball on quickly, find a man in space and play the right pass etc..
Busquets is no destroyer. Not even close. He is a brilliant read of the game and an exceptional passer. If Jones was at that level we'd have a world class midfielder on our hands.
Well I'm sorry but it looks as if you'll be disappointed. At best, Jones is a stop gap. We don't miss a destroyer at all. We miss cover for Carrick. Positional sense is only half the issue when it comes to Jones. That's not something that comes quickly as a midfielder. Just look at Tom for a prime example.
Hmm well, knowing United fans, I doubt we'll have the patience to see something come to fruition for Jones in that position. And that's for Blackburn mind you. Manchester United is a different kettle of fish.
Do I care if he proves me wrong? Not at all. However, I dont think this destroyer role is something we should be aiming for. It's not necessary for teams in this modern age and it's not necessary for Manchester United. In my eyes, we should focus on keeping the ball better in tight situations. DM or no DM.
Wasn't he playing CB for Blackburn ?
Busquets is just an all around world class midfielder, but I'd still argue he's in the Barcelona team as the destroyer, he's just also brilliant at other stuff too.
Playing that position for Blackburn and united is a different kettle of fish you are right but having played that position for more than half a season will stand him in good stead at 20 years old for any adjustments needed for the role. I don't think he would play as a DM either, more a free rooming, ball winning box to box type. And looking at the fact that we have played him at RB (a position that should improve most players stamina) that might still be the route we take.
Not for most of his final season at Blackburn and not against us in his Final season against Blackburn. But yes that was considered his best position whilst he was at Blackburn.
Capello on Jones:
"I have found in my career probably two players [of Jones' type]. He can play in different positions and always at the top level. He is a talent. He is so young. He is a big talent because when he receives the ball he plays always without fear. Good passes, good solutions. Every time, the best solution. I know something about football and the solution that he chooses every time when he receives the ball is always the best.
"For me, this [Sweden] game was really important, to see him play in front of the back four," Capello added. "Because if Parker will not be fit I will have a solution. I [was] not sure it will be okay to play this position. He can play every other position but for me it was really important test for him."
Capello was asked who the other two players were to compare with Jones. "It was Franco Baresi and Fernando Hierro. They played as midfielders and after they played centre-back. They were really good players."
He is good at destroying the spirit of the game.
We shall see - anyway your view that we dont miss a destroyer is fundamentally wrong. We need different players for different situations nowadays - this new squad is all about flexibility with players adaptable to different positions, roles and formations.
Best in the world though, would love to have him at United.
Yes that's better than being strictly a DM.
Jones played as an extra CB in front of the defence. He can do the same for us, which is why we dont need to buy someone to do that job. But we also dont need to pick someone to do that job often at all. In fact all of our success this season has come from attacking formations, not something defensive like that. And with it we've been successful in almost all our big matches
How is it fundamentally wrong? Give me a good reason why we need a makelele type player who contributes almost nothing to our build up play. There's a reason SAF mentioned why we don't really have holding midfielders like makelele throughout our history. We need cover for Carrick. A defensively minded centre midfielder who can also play. There's an article about the growing need for defensive midfielders to add more than defensive solidity. That's why most teams go with some derivation of 4-2-3-1 nowadays.
It's not how we play mate. We can be flexible in other ways. Yes we have a versatile squad. However DM is a very specialised position. So it kind of goes against what you're saying in terms of flexibility.
We only used that role for Fletcher since he can't move around as well as he used to but once again, it offers little dividends if you can't add to the build-up play. You can say 'oh well that's what the other attacking players should be doing'. Once again, that's not how we play and we won't play like that as long as Sir Alex is here.
It's not hard to find insanely good quotes about a lot of player who probably don't deserve them.
What are you suggesting here, that Jones has the potential to be as good as Baresi like Capello suggests?
That's bollocks though isn't it? We've used holding midfielders plenty of times -- Butt, Phil Neville, Jones and O'Shea have all done it for us over the years. It's not a permanent fixture of our team but we've certainly used it quite a few times, especially in big games away from home.
I can sort of see what Capello meant. Despite being a CB and first impressing me as a commanding CB barking orders at Smalling and the rest of England u21s, when you pick him as a right back or a midfielder, he gets the ball and his first instinct is to drive forward with the ball and make things happen. If it comes off, thats often the right thing to do. Take the moment and put pressure on the opponents, making space for other people to attack. And for a young defensive player to already have that is impressive. Its just like I say, its when he gets it right rather than all the time like Capello seems to be saying
Neville is pretty much the only one that just sat there. And Keane on his last legs when we played a 5 in midfield to protect him
The likes of Butt and O'Shea still tried to join up with play even if they were more defensive minded
Ok boss.
He is a twat and one of the players I hate most, but at the same time he is the best in the world in his position, and clearly better than Carrick.
And even Neville only did that very rarely when he was given a specific job to do, when he was played there out of necessity like O'Shea he got involved high up the pitch. Eventually Sir Alex is going to leave though so I wouldn't rule out the possibility of seeing him in a holding role eventually but until then I don't see it at all. He'll continue playing the energetic terrier, Gattuso-esque role that he's played from the beginning. As Ekeke says, his first intention is to drive forward with the ball, inject pace into the game and open the play up and generally he does that to good effect. I don't see any reason to try and take that out of his game and if we tried to play him in a disciplined holding role where all he does is break down the play and move it on a few yards then I think ultimately you'd lose a lot of his influence.
Think you need to look at what a holding midfielder means mate. No offense but only one of those players actually sat there.
Well he does have the potential to reach those levels, but whether he does or not is another matter. But anyway that was not my point. I posted that in response to your criticism about his ability on the ball, decision making etc - he really isn't as bad as many make out and needs a run of games in that position before you can really judge fairly.
I never said anything about needing a 'Makelele type player'! This seems just to be a semantic argument about various DM terms holding/destroyer/terrier etc
My view is that we have been lacking some energy and bite in midfield on certain occasions - Jones can give us that whenever it is required and I believe that he even has the potential to be more than that, maybe even the holy grail of becoming that box to box midfielder.
I just don't see it mate. For me, what's the point when he's already a very good CB? We might as well buy someone whose qualities suit such a position. We do lack some energy in midfield but the biggest problem has been balance. With Carrick and Cleverley, that's been our best partnership thus far. Jones undoes some of his good work in midfield because of his positioning.
I don't mind Jones there as a stop gap but I don't see him developing anything really beyond that nor do I think we should direct his development in that way.
I don't mind Jones there as a stop gap but I don't see him developing anything really beyond that nor do I think we should direct his development in that way.