Phil Jones
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Hmmm... who to believe? My own eyes and the popular opinion? or one man out on his own saying Cleverley played CM
Just 2 posts from the match thread, I could find with a quick search.
A cm doesn't help the full back on his side? Cm's do do that, it's odd to see for us as in recent times we've had few who can do that. There was some fluidity between positions, probably through natural movement and Jones's own natural energy to attavck.
Anyway, Welbeck clearly wasn't playing up front he was as wide on his side as cleverley, so can't say he was playing up top with rvp, kagawa was clearly closer to rvp than welbeck.
It's strange since we've tried the diamond the amount of times it gets confused with a 442/4411 etc, personally I think there are clear distinctions.
Welbeck always drifts to the left in a diamond.
"Match Thread"... must be true then. I just posted highlights, check out their positions in every single sequence and then come back.
Ok, well guess it doesn't really matter though, would be surprised though if you could find one instance where there is a clear diamond out there as has been evident whenever we've played it, where as am sure if someone wanted they could find numerous examples off a 4411. But tbh not a big deal at the end of the day.
Jones ran into the channel a couple of times I'll give you that, but that's cause he's a fecking mad man. And of course a CM helps his full back, hence why you saw Carrick up against Lennon on loads of occasions today.
I don't think we played in a diamond. Seemed more like a 4-2-3-1 with Cleverley occasionally switching with Jones and then with Cleverley ending up on the right and Welbeck on the left. Jones did very well. Was impressed.
These guys are usually bang on with formation they put down and they agree with your 4-2-3-1
http://www.whoscored.com/Matches/61...-League-2012-2013-Tottenham-Manchester-United
Good workhorse performance today, I think his future is as a CB rather than as a utility player though.
That's the starting formation or where we ended. They have spurs playing the same formation when they were clearly playing with 2 distinct wide men. i.e the 4-4-1-1
Ok, you're always right then.
In a Diamond the 2 midfielders in the middle are also excepted to fill in wide. We clearly started with that formation and had the advantage of numbers in the middle of the park. Not sure you are being obtuse or forgetful considering we did actually shift cleverley out wide later.
Also, those highlights show nothing. Anderson and Cleverley have drifted wide all the time before when we have played the diamond and so has Welbeck. Actually in one game Chicharito was drifting towards the right too. Even in those highlights see the amount of bodies we have in the middle when tottenham attack, unless they go wide.
Edit - Anyways, let's agree to disagree here. Had enough of this debate.
Also, those highlights show nothing. Anderson and Cleverley have drifted wide all the time before when we have played the diamond and so has Welbeck. Actually in one game Chicharito was drifting towards the right too. Even in those highlights see the amount of bodies we have in the middle when tottenham attack, unless they go wide.
Edit - Anyways, let's agree to disagree here. Had enough of this debate.
Read this whole article..
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...chester-united-how-fergie-stopped-gareth-bale
See Rio's Interview and the part where he says we Setup to defend differently against Bale -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/21114277
Great shift from Jones. Ferguson learnt from the mistakes in the Sep match-up when Sandro and Dembele's energy gave them the early impetus. Dembele in particular has been a thorn in our side this season. As said a great shift from a talented and completely commited lad...do see his long term future as a central defender though. It is great that he can provide this specific option, we are lucky to have him.
That article also clearly says Welbeck started on the right and clev on the left and then they swapped, doesn't really fit in to your assertion that welbeck played up top with rvp, drifting in to space out wide isn't the same as it being your tactical position. Plus tbh I don't really rate bleacher report that high.
"Sir Alex Ferguson saw it the same way, drawing up a loose midfield diamond formation with an extra defensive focus on the right-hand side."
Welbeck always drifts wide, in a diamond. Nothing new there. First he was drifting towards the right, then the left.
Both are central midfielders as well as the strikers drift in a diamond. Today it worked the same way except the fact that we wanted to keep RVP central, because he is RVP.
I don't know why you're taking that site as gospel, this is what they say about Rafael; "On paper, it looked like Bale was set to romp his flank, considering Rafael's suspect defensive capabilities and commitment. The Brazilian is improving every game, but he's not ready to take on someone of Bale's calibre." Rafael has clearly won battles against Bale before so that scentence is just wrong and with the stenghts in rafaels defensive game being defending against the likes of Bale it shows a lack of knowledge on rafael.
Secondly again drifting wide is not the same as it being you're tactical position. The article clearly says Welbeck and clev both started wide, so presumably they're playing the same roles on their respective flanks, and then they swapped flanks. Again don't see how that fits in to welbeck playing up top.
That's not to say that article is wrong, it makes some good observations but I don't think it was a diamond, certainly it didn't look anything like the diamonds we've seen in the past, it didn't look anything like the diamond we played against west ham. Also if we were playing jones right as a diamond would suggest, why not swap him and rafael, given rafael is clearly stronger going forward, and given we only just did that in midweek.
It wasn't a flat out traditional 4411, I'll give you that, Clev certainly tucked in, but that doesn't take away from the fact that welbeck and clev both played in the wider roles, with rvp as a lone striker and kagawa in the hole.
So anyway, Phil Jones..
Cevno, this wasn't the same as our other fixtures. If we followed your logic, we could make a diamond out to be a 4-5-1!
The most blatant examples of the diamond came in some of our CL matches and when we played against West Ham in the FA cup. If you think how we played yesterday was similar to any of those matches, but that's your perogative.
At the very most, it was a loose diamond but in my eyes, that's no diamond at all.
The most blatant examples of the diamond came in some of our CL matches and when we played against West Ham in the FA cup. If you think how we played yesterday was similar to any of those matches, but that's your perogative.
At the very most, it was a loose diamond but in my eyes, that's no diamond at all.
He was fantastic. Gave our midfield lots of energy and steel
Some of you lot talk through your arses.
It's clear that a fair few of you have no idea what you're watching.
It's clear that a fair few of you have no idea what you're watching.
I have always been skeptical about his midfield credentials but after last night, I believe, we have found a defensive player to play in the midfield against Barcelona. He would be useful in defensive team set-ups against opposition who are a level or two above us.
So in the space of 1 game you've gone from being skeptical to deciding he's the answer to beating Barcelona?
Wow. I mean he was good but that's a mammoth jump.
Wow. I mean he was good but that's a mammoth jump.
Did I say he was the answer to beating Barcelona?
Wow. That's a mammoth deduction from my simple post.
I have always felt that we missed Fletcher dearly in the two finals that we have lost against them. Another defensive presence in the midfield could have helped us more in those games. We have missed a player that would make tackles and disrupt their rhythm. They are a were/are a superior team to us, we were/are not going to match them in playing style. Our best hope is to go with a defensive set-up and hit them on the break when we get a chance.
With Jones alongside Carrick and in-form wingers we could hope to achieve that.
So the reason we got dominated yesterday with those 2 in the team was because Cleverley & Welbeck weren't good enough? Dembele walked through our midfield a few times and on one occasssion he set up Dempsey who really should have scored, now imagine Iniesta!
Jones/Carrick is just not a midfield I'd trust against Barca, they just don't hold the ball well enough. I'd much prefer Cleverley in there.
Any combination of the current midfield with all the players on top form will never be enough to beat Barca in the CL.There is a real gulf between the two teams, in CM in particular
When the hell are we playing Barca anyway?
After Phil Jones and Carrick dominate Madrid.
Nar I just find it funny that a game in which our midfield was completely dominated for an entire half against Tottenham is being used as an idea about how Jones could be that player in midfield to help us beat the likes of Barca.
Personally I think if we ever play Barca again, we'll need to keep the ball in midfield miles better to stand even half a chance.
Unless we find another midfielder or Clev/Ando can develop overnight he might be a good option. It is a given that we are going to get dominated by a Barca midfield. You don't need to be a genius to figure that out.
He would be a good defensive option in the midfield against them, if we ever play them this season.
And yet Chelsea beat them last season and Sociedad at the weekend. Football, i tell you.
The only thing Phil Jones did yesterday was cement his place in the squad as the new John O'shea. Great stuff.
forevergiggs you have yet to answer the question, how does having another defensive midfielder against barca lead to maintaining more possession?
I think jones performance was encouraging in the sense that he can give us a different option now, we've not seen him play so disciplined before, but not sure I would use him outside of a proper 433 against the likes of Real. Jones helped us defend and have us more steel but I don't think he helped us dominate possession and I don't think that's something we can get with him. And although we're unlikely to dominate real anyway, I think we need to see more of the ball and keep it better than we were against spurs.
Where did I say he'll help us maintain more possession, Potato?
I said he would be useful option as a defensive midfielder, who can be used to disrupt their rhythm.
which begs the question mate. What about possession?
Why isn't he getting more praise for that performance?
It was night and day compared to his last time in midfield. He looked very comfortable, used the ball well and used his speed and power to make himself a nuisance.
A very Fletcher-like performance. Of course there is room for improvement but Spurs' midfield is very good and he more than held is own.
It was night and day compared to his last time in midfield. He looked very comfortable, used the ball well and used his speed and power to make himself a nuisance.
A very Fletcher-like performance. Of course there is room for improvement but Spurs' midfield is very good and he more than held is own.
I wish Fergie could stay forever but when he sadly has to go, our next manager will probably insist on playing more 4-3-3. It's the system Pep prefers, and the system Mourinho went for with Chelsea.
I think Jones could be that player who sits just ahead of the defense and drops back to make a defensive 3 when the full back(s) go forward. I think we have lacked that presence between the midfield and defense this season.
I think Jones could be that player who sits just ahead of the defense and drops back to make a defensive 3 when the full back(s) go forward. I think we have lacked that presence between the midfield and defense this season.