Well to be fair Utd were on top of the table in January last season. That stupid loss to Sheffield killed any sort of momentum we had.
PL Title Race
- Thread starter adexkola
- Start date
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
To all who think there's no title race this season, you will probably cry at the end of the season. Liverpool are not out of it yet. It's crazy. City could easily lose a couple. There's about 5 months more of football. Really stupid to write a challenge off so early.
City have shown to be ridiculously consistent. It is more likely they will go unbeaten the rest of the season than lose another game.
Chelsea beat City three times last year. There is half a season to go. It is going to be tough to make up the points but it can happen.
Trying to keep up with City is such a difficult task. It’s why anyone taking over at United has ridiculously high standards to live up to…with City next door and SAF reign behind them, no wonder no one has come close.
Klopp is a good manager and has had years to challenge City but he’s only managed to beat them once.
A lost today might not feel like it’s over but it’s easy to see why lots of fans will see it that way.
Klopp is a good manager and has had years to challenge City but he’s only managed to beat them once.
A lost today might not feel like it’s over but it’s easy to see why lots of fans will see it that way.
Just no, Pep is the sole reason Klopp's time at Liverpool will include only few trophies. If Pep wasn't here Liverpool would win the title most seasons.
It's not quite that dramatic. They lost 6 times last season and 9 the season before. They are incredibly consistent when they go on a run, but they are more than capable of losing games.
Title stroll, 4 in 5 years, made the second cup basically a redundant competition. Abu Dhabi have essentially bought English football as a competitive sport and only their own collapse can make it entertaining.
Nice try
Yeah the rational take is that titles aren't decided in December and it makes no sense to throw in the towel at this stage, but playing Liverpool and City back to back with both essentially must win in terms of the title is back breaking, given the state of the team at the moment.
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Saudi Arabia say hello. City will be complaining about them in 5 years and crying about FFP.
I wish soon we can really challenge this incredible Guardiola side.
Ya that's where we're at though. We're living through what will be very obvious in a few years. The Premier League is dead, clubs will just be names, probably including us
The fact that Liverpool would be the most likely to benefit from that is merely a coincidence.
It is really sad. For all the money pumped into the PL the gap between top and bottom has never been bigger money wise, we get desensitised hearing big numbers but Pep has nearly spent £1billion purely on players…how is that even possible.
City's trump card is Pep. I don't think anybody really believes they would be this consistent, this dominant, in the league damn near every single season with some other manager. When he leaves, they'll still be a top team but I'd bet they'll fall back and just be another top club among several in this league rather the outstanding, almost unbeatable across 38 games one they are now.
They've still won the title under every manager they've had with the Abu Dhabi dollars. It shouldn't be that easy, but it is.
Yeah and there's an argument to be made that they were still building/fine tuning their squad in the Mancini/Pellegrini era but they were absolutely weren't this almost unbeatable behemoth they are now back then and I think they'd go back to that win title here and there level again without Pep. They won the title twice. Chelsea won it twice. United once in the 5 years before Pep. City will likely have won 4 out of 6 in the 6 years Pep's been around.
Our next game is at Stamford Bridge. Could rule either Chelsea or us out of the title race at that point.
I just don't see where City will drop the points from here though. Chelsea and Liverpool will drop more so City would need to nose dive from here.
I just don't see where City will drop the points from here though. Chelsea and Liverpool will drop more so City would need to nose dive from here.
My point is that really from what we have seen at this point they normally go on a run a win the league. They may lose a couple of games at the end but that's when it's already finished.
City are hands-on favourites to win the PL now. They might lose/draw a few matches here and there, but for them to lose the PL, either Liverpool or Chelsea needs to have "the perfect winning streak." I can't see that happening in a Covid-19-hit season.
And because City's depth is so incredible, and will continue to be so in the foreseeable future, they will always be favourites to win the League as long as the pandemic lasts.
The best first team, best substitutes, best manager, a 6-point lead (+goal difference), best placed to land better players in January...what else?
And because City's depth is so incredible, and will continue to be so in the foreseeable future, they will always be favourites to win the League as long as the pandemic lasts.
The best first team, best substitutes, best manager, a 6-point lead (+goal difference), best placed to land better players in January...what else?
We need Pep to play every game like it's a Champions League final..
There should be some anti competition laws applied against them. It's killing the PL as a spectacle.
Halfway to the season, city has 47 points with 15 wins, 2 draws, 2 losses
Assuming they will have similar record for remaining period means, they will have 94 points after 38 games.
That indicates either chelsea or liverpool (both on 41 points) to get > 53 points from 19 games. I highly doubt this could be achieved
Assuming they will have similar record for remaining period means, they will have 94 points after 38 games.
That indicates either chelsea or liverpool (both on 41 points) to get > 53 points from 19 games. I highly doubt this could be achieved
City depth is one of the biggest myth in football I've heard of.
It's not.
Grealish - Jesus - Silva
Foden - Sterling - Mahrez
They can field either of those lineups or a mix and it'll just be one of their normal starting lineups. If Liverpool started Origi - Firmino - Minamino you'd question where the first XI was.
Well it clearly isn’t a myth though is it.
They’ve played nearly the best part of 2 seasons without the best player in the league and it’s not even shown. £100m Grealish and world class Foden not needed for weeks and they are still destroying teams.
If City having depth is a myth, then we might as well all shut up shop and go home.
First, we thought there will be potentially 4 contenders, but then United dropped out of the race.
Then Chelsea started to show weakness and drop points, and it looked like a 2-way race.
And now Liverpool showing inconsistency too.
It’s not over yet, but you have to like City’s chances. They have shown time and again consistency in recent years. On the other hand, Liverpool, despite having great seasons, has mostly finished behind City.
Then Chelsea started to show weakness and drop points, and it looked like a 2-way race.
And now Liverpool showing inconsistency too.
It’s not over yet, but you have to like City’s chances. They have shown time and again consistency in recent years. On the other hand, Liverpool, despite having great seasons, has mostly finished behind City.
I really hope we go for a holding CM this January and maybe a striker that isn’t on the cusp of retirement. Otherwise I just can’t see is in the top 4.
Liverpool I get, but in comparison to Chelsea and United who have an equal attacking depth, doesn't seem to help them. This is equally down to Pep and the way he utilize these players, the game time he gives them through rotation to build on their confidence.
Chelsea have Hakim, Hudson-Odoi, Werner, Lukaku, Pulisic, Kai (???) and United have Sancho, Ronaldo, Rashford, Cavani, Greenwood, Martial, they can equally put two starting forward lines like City...
Foden is a youth product and credit to Pep in bring him to another level with his development, who is now benching players like Sterling and Grealish and with exceptional performance. Zinchenko also benches Cancelo and Walker, even right now Walker hasn't played the last 3 games it's been Zinchenko who's been part of the destructions City have been laying down.
City best XI would look like this
Sterling-KdB-Mahrez
Gundo-Rodri-B.Silva
Cancelo-Laporte-Dias-Walker
They're bench XI
Grealish-Jesus-Kayky (???)
Foden-Fernandinho-Palmer (???)
Zinchenko-Ake-Stones-???
Steffen
Even Klopp would struggle to finish in the top 4 with that bench XI. Pep has found players and developed them to play in multiple positions, Cancelo, can play on both sides as a fullback, Foden can play midfield, winger and false 9, KdB midfielder and false 9, B.Silva midfield, winger and false 9, Jesus striker and winger, etc.
The way I hear people going on about City depth is like it isn't Jesus but R9, it's not Foden, but prime Iniesta or it isn't Zinchenko, but prime Roberto Carlos, its not Stones/Ake, but Maldini coming off the bench for crying out loud.
If PL had a 50+1 like Germany, Abu Dhabi City and Chelsea would have never happened, but the league would be less competitive as well.
Not that an attack is a lineup, but let's do a comparison. Silva is not a midfielder. Torres has left (and was injured for a good amount of this season), so City have 5 attackers. Let's look at a form/depth/quality comparison this season:
Salah-Mane-Jota-Firmino-Origi: 51 G/A contributions
Mahrez-Sterling-Foden-Jesus-Grealish: 37 G/A contributions
Yes, City can pick 3 forwards from that group of 5 without a significant drop in quality, but that's because none of them are exactly pulling up trees this season (go into the Grealish thread to see what many think of his season so far). I doubt any Liverpool fan (sentiment aside) would swap these lineups.
For SnG, let's look at midfield too.
Fabinho-Thiago-Henderson-Ox-Milner-Keita
Silva-Rodri-Gundogan-KDB-Fernandinho
Here, the opposite is true. City have more top quality, but Liverpool have more depth here by far. KDB has been average this season (being kind) and Fernandinho's legs have gone.
The poster you quoted is correct. Contrary to popular (incorrect) opinion, City certainly cannot field 2 world class players in each position, they don't have 2 teams capable of winning the league or finishing top 4 (field Fernandinho at DM and see how well that works out for you), and they certainly have their depth exaggerated.
How many games have Salah, Jota and Mane started up front for Liverpool this season? Now compare it to how many times the same 3 start for City.
The simple point is, City can rotate 6 very good attackers, whereas Liverpool have to play the same 3 because Firmino is always injured and the other 2 aren't that good. Over a season it will catch up to you, and it has. I said it a good few weeks back when Chelsea started dropping points, that the league was done. Pool have an as good first XI but their lack of attacking depth would kill them.
It's not an outlandish suggestion at all to say City have better attacking depth - it's part of the reason why they've won like 5 of the last league cups - they can field teams that are close to their normal teams whilst most others have to rotate. Of course that's not diminishing Guardiola's achievements - it's just one of the advantages they have. SAF also used to maintain pretty heavy squad depth. In Liverpool's case though it is mostly just a financial mismatch, had Klopp been able to strengthen his squad over the last two seasons the title races would've been closer. The net spend between the two clubs since Klopp took over is something like £100m for Klopp and £500m for Pep.
As I mentioned I get Liverpool attacking depth, but what about United and Chelsea who's attacking depth more or less match City, yet the results are not exactly the same?
Net spend needs context here, its a fact that Pep has a FAR bigger financial advantage, however I feel people here act like Pool lose a star player every year or something. Outside of Coutinho Pool haven't lost a key player under Klopp, credit to Pool sporting director who has flipped dead weights to bring in funds to strength the team, which in fact means Klopp has been strengthening his team every season. He bought in Thiago and Jota last summer and then bought Konate this summer, before that Allison, Fabinho, Shaqiri, Salah, Van Dijk, Keita, Chamberlain, Robertson were exactly has he not strength his team? I'll tell you one thing if Klopp/Pool stop buying players like Thiago/Chamberlain who have had deep injury issues before there moves it would probably help, Konate is another to look out for, so far not an issue, but he's missed 46 games in 2 years due to injury, before his move.
Nothing is decided in December except who's in the race. Looking like it'll be between the two satanic clubs.
do you realise that in the first ten years of the premier league united were more dominant than city are now? (city have won 5 in ten years, united won 7 in ten years)
did that kill the premier league as a spectacle?
equally the winning margins united had were on average bigger than citys winning margins
united 18, 11, 10, 10, 8, 7, 4 (average 9.7)
city 19, 12, 2, 1, 0 (average 6.8)
also add in 5 different champions in the last 10 years as opposed to 3 different champions in the first 10 years when united won 7.
where there has been a change is the number of teams in the top 4.
7 different teams in the decade city have been dominant
10 in the first decade of the premier league
however that change happened before city owners arrived, the ten years before they arrived there were 7 different teams
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I guess we’ll see but I’m not sure. He’s a top manager but if they hire let’s just say one of the top 5 managers every time and back then to the same extent I don’t really see how they won’t stay around this level domestically (and they do better in cups).
Don't think people realise how much of a difference Pep makes. Once he leaves, and assuming that:
a) we never rehire Pep
and
b) we never hire Klopp
We're likely never hitting these levels again. Pep's one of a kind. We'll hire other great managers but none who can do what he does so consistently, who know how to do things like manage the mid-season slump, keep the dressing room happy even when big names are on the bench or break down a 10-man defence. Once Pep's gone I reckon we'll return to the title every three years or so that we were managing before him. There won't be another at his level.
a) we never rehire Pep
and
b) we never hire Klopp
We're likely never hitting these levels again. Pep's one of a kind. We'll hire other great managers but none who can do what he does so consistently, who know how to do things like manage the mid-season slump, keep the dressing room happy even when big names are on the bench or break down a 10-man defence. Once Pep's gone I reckon we'll return to the title every three years or so that we were managing before him. There won't be another at his level.
I'm sure many fans were bored when we won 7/10 but i don't think opposition clubs fans & owners felt the futile desperation that they feel with this City side.
We had SAF but other clubs had the opportunity to negate this advantage by outspending us. It's true this didn't work the majority of the time. Clubs were never defeated though, as they knew they could outspend us again in the Summer in an attempt to gain a different result.
We no longer have this Yin & Yang in the league. We will never see the likes of SAF again. Liverpool have their SAF-LITE in Klopp. He has been unable to make a serious impression on the league.
The remaining option for teams is to try to outspend City but how can you outspend a State & balance the books. There is no jeopardy in how City operate. Buy a CB for £50 Mill, he loses form, you dump him in the reserves for 12 Mths & pay £60 Mill for another CB in the meantime. You buy a MF for £100 Mill & regularly rotate him with another £60 MF
But it was ok when Liverpool dominated then utd were buying all the best talent to dominate? Don't blame the great sheikh for your problems, american owners just want profit and will only invest what they have to. Besides, we really don't care.