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amolbhatia50k

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That's the gameplay loop of all rogue-lites.

Sometimes you become insanely OP, others you'll struggle to neat basic enemies. It's what offers the replayability.
You don't start from scratch in all though. In Hades you can make a lot of improvements to your character through the mirror upgrades and new weapons or weapon modifications. Curse of the dead gods gives you new weapons, buffs and of course its levels once done are actually done.

I'm hoping Returnal gives players some relief at least? As although I really enjoyed something like Hades, starting absolutely from scratch is really not a gameplay mechanic I'm a fan of.
 

caid

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I think Returnals issue is it's too slow at explaining it's upgrades and giving you new weapons.

But it follows the same basic loop as all the good rogue-lites. Isaac is the GOAT for action based roguelike games and that can also be feast or famine in your first few runs. Once you gain an understanding of the mechanics and enemies they become a lot easier.
I think its issue is its too hard. I think its an 8/10 or a 9/10 game dragged down to a 6 or 7 by a really, really poorly judged difficulty level. I think they could cut enemy damage in half for the first few levels and by even more in later levels and the game would still be really hard. You still have to deal with the game randomly deciding to not giving you healing items for 5+ rooms in a row and nothing but malignant items.
 

b82REZ

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You don't start from scratch in all though. In Hades you can make a lot of improvements to your character through the mirror upgrades and new weapons or weapon modifications. Curse of the dead gods gives you new weapons, buffs and of course its levels once done are actually done.

I'm hoping Returnal gives players some relief at least? As although I really enjoyed something like Hades, starting absolutely from scratch is really not a gameplay mechanic I'm a fan of.

That's why I compared it to Isaac. Returnal follows the same loop as that. There are unlocks but you can't boost your stats before a run starts.

The games you mention lean heavily on the lite part of rogue-lite. That makes them more newcomer friendly but make the game easier because you can gear yourself to be OP before a run truly starts.

I think its issue is its too hard. I think its an 8/10 or a 9/10 game dragged down to a 6 or 7 by a really, really poorly judged difficulty level. I think they could cut enemy damage in half for the first few levels and by even more in later levels and the game would still be really hard. You still have to deal with the game randomly deciding to not giving you healing items for 5+ rooms in a row and nothing but malignant items.
I don't think it's that hard. Once you learn the patterns and attacks the first few biome become trivial.

I'm still playing it and I platinum'd it ages ago.
This guy knows.
 

Massive Spanner

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I think its issue is its too hard. I think its an 8/10 or a 9/10 game dragged down to a 6 or 7 by a really, really poorly judged difficulty level. I think they could cut enemy damage in half for the first few levels and by even more in later levels and the game would still be really hard. You still have to deal with the game randomly deciding to not giving you healing items for 5+ rooms in a row and nothing but malignant items.
It’s definitely too hard early on. Biome 1 is where I died far, far more than any other biome. A lot of it is based on luck with items and weapons you get.

Once you get over that hump though and start regularly pumping through biome 1 it gets brilliant and progress becomes waaaaay better.
 

b82REZ

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It’s definitely too hard early on. Biome 1 is where I died far, far more than any other biome. A lot of it is based on luck with items and weapons you get.

Once you get over that hump though and start regularly pumping through biome 1 it gets brilliant and progress becomes waaaaay better.
I think that's more to do with familiarity rather than it being difficult. I actually think biome three is far away the most difficult.
 

amolbhatia50k

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That's why I compared it to Isaac. Returnal follows the same loop as that. There are unlocks but you can't boost your stats before a run starts.

The games you mention lean heavily on the lite part of rogue-lite. That makes them more newcomer friendly but make the game easier because you can gear yourself to be OP before a run truly starts.



I don't think it's that hard. Once you learn the patterns and attacks the first few biome become trivial.



This guy knows.
Personally I prefer the Souls take on difficulty than the Rogue lite one. For me difficulty works so well when combined with the Souls progression mechanic. I just don't like replaying stuff in general (I'm not a completionist either I like to move on) but stuff like Hades made it worthwhile as the writing is so good.
 

caid

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That's why I compared it to Isaac. Returnal follows the same loop as that. There are unlocks but you can't boost your stats before a run starts.

The games you mention lean heavily on the lite part of rogue-lite. That makes them more newcomer friendly but make the game easier because you can gear yourself to be OP before a run truly starts.



I don't think it's that hard. Once you learn the patterns and attacks the first few biome become trivial.



This guy knows.
Half the people who play the game wont see past the first biome. Two in Three dont see past the second. The platinum is like 2% or something. The game is never, ever, ever trivial.
If you get really good at the game and can avoid ever getting hit you'll get really, really strong. You'll double your health and be leaving healing items behind as needed. You'll have your overload charged up to 5 which makes you so much stronger than the basic level. You can start to afford some malfunctions or parasites.
Personally, i dont think the drops are random. It feels heavily scripted, i feel pretty positive i can tell you precisely where my next run is going to end. And the one after that.

It’s definitely too hard early on. Biome 1 is where I died far, far more than any other biome. A lot of it is based on luck with items and weapons you get.

Once you get over that hump though and start regularly pumping through biome 1 it gets brilliant and progress becomes waaaaay better.
Didn't see this before, this is definitely true. That early hump involves getting really, really good at the game before it starts letting you get anywhere. It kind of involves accepting the game as it is a bit where if your looking for progress your going to be frustrated and annoyed with it. If your looking to sit down and shoot stuff for an hour or two and possibly see one or two new things if your lucky you can start enjoying it. People who cant get into or aren't interested in that mindset will just bounce off it and give up
 
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Ainu

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Shame to see some people aren't enjoying Returnal. If it's not working out, you can't force yourself to like something, but I still encourage everyone to try to persist and see if it clicks at some point. Because if it does, you might fall in love with it and by then end look back on it as one of your favourite games in recent years, it's that sort of game.
 

largelyworried

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Shame to see some people aren't enjoying Returnal. If it's not working out, you can't force yourself to like something, but I still encourage everyone to try to persist and see if it clicks at some point. Because if it does, you might fall in love with it and by then end look back on it as one of your favourite games in recent years, it's that sort of game.
I downloaded it overnight and will give it a go in the next couple of days. My main reservation is the regenerating levels, I've never liked that in roguelikes because learning the level layout is half the fun for me. That's what's kept me off it so far. Its nice on paper but in practice I've yet to find a game where it results in a better experience.
 

afrocentricity

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I downloaded it overnight and will give it a go in the next couple of days. My main reservation is the regenerating levels, I've never liked that in roguelikes because learning the level layout is half the fun for me. That's what's kept me off it so far. Its nice on paper but in practice I've yet to find a game where it results in a better experience.
Even though it's randomised, areas will become familiar. It's not fully procedural generation it's puzzle pieces put together at random. Rooms and areas attached to eachother...
 

Volumiza

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Shame to see some people aren't enjoying Returnal. If it's not working out, you can't force yourself to like something, but I still encourage everyone to try to persist and see if it clicks at some point. Because if it does, you might fall in love with it and by then end look back on it as one of your favourite games in recent years, it's that sort of game.
I'm going to stick with it for a bit, it looks and plays great but I've not played long enough for any hooks to appear. I really loved Housemarque's old game called Resogun. Awesome, old skool two player. In terms of hours played over PS3, PS4 and PS5, Resogun has to be up near my most played games.
 

Ainu

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I'm going to stick with it for a bit, it looks and plays great but I've not played long enough for any hooks to appear. I really loved Housemarque's old game called Resogun. Awesome, old skool two player. In terms of hours played over PS3, PS4 and PS5, Resogun has to be up near my most played games.
Have you played Nex Machina? It's even better in my opinion, a sublime twin stick shooter. These guys are top of their class at arcade shooters gameplay.
 

afrocentricity

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Nex Machina is great and I've put loads of hours into Alienation
 

Volumiza

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I enjoyed Resogun but felt a little limited just shooting left or right. I feel like they took it to the next level in Nex Machina.
Yeah, maybe, it's much better doing coop with a mate than alone I must add. Great retro two player though, certainly takes me back to my younger days.
 

BusbyMalone

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Still think Resogun is their best game, personally (also my first Platinum). Nex Machina is good fun though.
 

afrocentricity

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It's funny how some of the weapons and gameplay elements are consistent across most of their games. Invulnerable dash, powershot, sword melee, overdrive, bullet hell... Which game is the most Housemarc type game? Probably Resogun.
 

Ainu

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I still have a few games by them on my list to check out, like Alienation, Matterfall and whatever version of Super Stardust is available on PS. Pretty sure the first two are on PS Plus Extra so I'll have to check them when I upgrade.
 

Volumiza

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It's funny how some of the weapons and gameplay elements are consistent across most of their games. Invulnerable dash, powershot, sword melee, overdrive, bullet hell... Which game is the most Housemarc type game? Probably Resogun.
Returnal is pure Housemarque when you look beyond the gorgeous graphics.
 

largelyworried

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Well Returnal isn't what I was expecting. I think by reputation I was expecting a pure trial by fire but the first 40 mins have been kind of tedious to be honest. Almost all of that has been spent popping basic blue squids with a pea shooter. I think partly I lucked out, because I kept finding weapons that were the same pea shooter but with some extra element, like a homing attack and assumed that was it for this level. Then found a rapid fire weapon, which was more fun. Then I died and lost it. Since then I've gotten it once more, but that's it.

I don't feel like Im figuring out any of the game mechanics. For example I keep finding things that I guess will eventually spit out out items, fabricators I think, but I never have any of whatever the currency is. These in game systems usually present themselves sooner or later in the game so I don't usually go out of my way to look them up but I guess I might be missing something. Ill give it another hour tonight, see how it goes.

DualSense feedback is great though.
 

caid

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Well Returnal isn't what I was expecting. I think by reputation I was expecting a pure trial by fire but the first 40 mins have been kind of tedious to be honest. Almost all of that has been spent popping basic blue squids with a pea shooter. I think partly I lucked out, because I kept finding weapons that were the same pea shooter but with some extra element, like a homing attack and assumed that was it for this level. Then found a rapid fire weapon, which was more fun. Then I died and lost it. Since then I've gotten it once more, but that's it.

I don't feel like Im figuring out any of the game mechanics. For example I keep finding things that I guess will eventually spit out out items, fabricators I think, but I never have any of whatever the currency is. These in game systems usually present themselves sooner or later in the game so I don't usually go out of my way to look them up but I guess I might be missing something. Ill give it another hour tonight, see how it goes.

DualSense feedback is great though.
Enemies drop the currency when they die.
 

largelyworried

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Played Returnal a little bit longer, but it hasn't grabbed me so far. Im minded to try and push through the first biome just to see the second one, but the first one is honestly kind of dull. Again, not what I was expecting.
 

harshad

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Just cannot get into Returnal.... and 20 deaths later, I have yet to come across the Boss, and cannot even discern if I have made any progress in the game.

Only thing I have understood properly is that the Triangle doorway leads to area where I can get an augment of some nature and the Rectangle doorway leads to the next room..... The farthest I have reached is a room which went into lockdown after I entered it but for some reason I could not do any damage to any enemy in that room.

Probably stick with till the weekend and see if I make any noticeable progress else move on to Death Stranding or GoT.
 

Ainu

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Just cannot get into Returnal.... and 20 deaths later, I have yet to come across the Boss, and cannot even discern if I have made any progress in the game.

Only thing I have understood properly is that the Triangle doorway leads to area where I can get an augment of some nature and the Rectangle doorway leads to the next room..... The farthest I have reached is a room which went into lockdown after I entered it but for some reason I could not do any damage to any enemy in that room.

Probably stick with till the weekend and see if I make any noticeable progress else move on to Death Stranding or GoT.
The blue triangle doors are indeed bonus rooms, not necessary to get through the biome but always worth checking out. A room going into lockdown occurs randomly, it'll spawn some particularly nasty enemies when that happens. If you can't damage them, there are probably green towers that heal the enemies. You need to destroy those first, they go down really quickly.
 

b82REZ

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Really enjoying Crash 4.

The soundtrack on Arcadegeddon is absolutely mint as well. Just not sure if I'll play it though. The annoying talking sections are putting me off but the gameplay feels fluid.
 

harshad

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The blue triangle doors are indeed bonus rooms, not necessary to get through the biome but always worth checking out. A room going into lockdown occurs randomly, it'll spawn some particularly nasty enemies when that happens. If you can't damage them, there are probably green towers that heal the enemies. You need to destroy those first, they go down really quickly.
Thanks for this. Will keep an eye out for that. Also, is there no permanent way to increase the damage output of the weapon?
 

Moby

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Just cannot get into Returnal.... and 20 deaths later, I have yet to come across the Boss, and cannot even discern if I have made any progress in the game.

Only thing I have understood properly is that the Triangle doorway leads to area where I can get an augment of some nature and the Rectangle doorway leads to the next room..... The farthest I have reached is a room which went into lockdown after I entered it but for some reason I could not do any damage to any enemy in that room.

Probably stick with till the weekend and see if I make any noticeable progress else move on to Death Stranding or GoT.
Yet no mention of hollow knight.
 

Ainu

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Thanks for this. Will keep an eye out for that. Also, is there no permanent way to increase the damage output of the weapon?
Unlocking weapon traits. Not all of them are good, but a lot of them result in additional attacks that massively increase your damage output. As long as you keep unlocking them, you will notice your weapons getting more effective.
 

Ainu

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Can I change the starting weapon or does that remain the same?
Starting weapon is always the sidearm without traits, that never changes. What does change is the pool of weapons that are randomly available as drops or chests, and their available traits.

Once a weapon is scanned, it is added to the pool. Each weapon you pick up will have a set of traits, unlocked or otherwise (if it's not unlocked yet, it will show you the percentage left towards unlocking).

If you keep playing, you'll find that the weapons you pick up early in each run get better and better, so you sort of stop worrying about that starting pistol.
 

largelyworried

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Just cannot get into Returnal.... and 20 deaths later, I have yet to come across the Boss, and cannot even discern if I have made any progress in the game.

Only thing I have understood properly is that the Triangle doorway leads to area where I can get an augment of some nature and the Rectangle doorway leads to the next room..... The farthest I have reached is a room which went into lockdown after I entered it but for some reason I could not do any damage to any enemy in that room.

Probably stick with till the weekend and see if I make any noticeable progress else move on to Death Stranding or GoT.
Yeah this is a good point, the game does feel shapeless so far. I don't mind banging my head against a wall for as long as it takes to get through (my 100+ attempts of Fire Giant at level 1 are testament to that), as long as I can see that I'm getting somewhere. But I'm not really clear what the goal is here. It feels like fighting a boss without a health bar, I've no idea if I'm doing it right.

On the upside I have to say the controls are excellent in this game. I read a review that described it as being Mario-like in terms of responsiveness and accuracy, and I'd definitely agree with that. So the game engine feels like a goer, I just want to get deeper into it.
 

Ainu

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Another Returnal tip now that I think of it, turn on auto sprint and ignore precision aiming. It will take a while to adjust to the movement but at least for me the game became so much easier. As long as there are enemies in the room, never stop, always be on the move. Auto sprint makes that so much easier.
 

Massive Spanner

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Another Returnal tip now that I think of it, turn on auto sprint and ignore precision aiming. It will take a while to adjust to the movement but at least for me the game became so much easier. As long as there are enemies in the room, never stop, always be on the move. Auto sprint makes that so much easier.
Well, feck, I wish I knew that was a thing.