Poppies and remembrance at football matches

[R.N7]

It's a little arrogant forcing this upon foreign players, why not make it about all the soldiers who have perished in war, not just the British ones. Problem solved.

 

[RedDevil@84]

It's a little arrogant forcing this upon foreign players, why not make it about all the soldiers who have perished in war, not just the British ones. Problem solved.

Someone's villain is some one else's hero and all that

 

[oates]

It's a little arrogant forcing this upon foreign players, why not make it about all the soldiers who have perished in war, not just the British ones. Problem solved.

Well it's not forced upon players apart from in the minds of the small minded and if you want to wear one to remember all soldiers who have perished in any war, conflict or policing action then you are welcome to.

 

[Eire Red United]

McClean doesn't help himself with his pro-IRA comments.

What pro-IRA comments? And so what if he did make them?

 

[fergieisold]

Whether you like it or not it is a tradition in this country to wear poppies around this time of year. When a player has clearly asked to not have a poppy on his shirt he must have a reason for not doing so.

He is entitled not to wear it of course, but I am curious why.

You seem to be suggesting everyone should wear one regardless of their views or nationality. That's ridiculous. I don't wear one, no particular reason other than that it makes no difference to how I remember the lives lost in war.

 

[cyberman]

Whether you like it or not it is a tradition in this country to wear poppies around this time of year. When a player has clearly asked to not have a poppy on his shirt he must have a reason for not doing so.

He is entitled not to wear it of course, but I am curious why.

Poppys on shirts is a recent phenomenon though. Why would a football player need to explain himself over a what? 8 year rabble fest?

 

[Rooney24]

Matic says he wont wear a poppy again because it reminds him of when his village was bombed when he was 12.

The sooner this nonsense poppy thing is taken out of football the better.

 

[crossy1686]

Matic says he wont wear a poppy again because it reminds him of when his village was bombed when he was 12.

The sooner this nonsense poppy thing is taken out of football the better.

Didn't FIFA try to do something about it a while back as they have a zero tolerance policy to political messages within football? Did the FA just take the fine or what? Don't see the point in it to be honest, people should be free to do as they please, just keep this shit out of football, there's no place for it.

 

[EireRed_GS]

McClean doesn't help himself with his pro-IRA comments.

absolute bollocks there.. What comments are these?? Just because of where he's from doesn't automatically make him pro-IRA. It's uneducated comments like that leads to muppets rushing the pitch like we seen at the weekend to shout abuse.

If your english/british and wish to wear one, go ahead. I fully respect that. But anyone thats not British shouldn't be expected to show up wearing one, and not receive disgusting abuse for not doing so. Some people have much more valid and personal reasons than others for not doing so. It should be left at that

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

Every year, same thread and same arguments.

My parents felt remembering the dead/injured from wars was important (probably as we had family killed in both WW's) and part of that rememberance included wearing a poppy. As a result, I've always worn one and once I became an adult, made the decision to continue to wear it (and attend a service each year).

That's my decision and everyone has the right to make their own decision.

But all the rest of the crap is irrelevant and plays into the hands of EDL, Daily Mail, anti-foreigners, etc.

Buy a poppy, don't buy a poppy but make your own decision and let others make theirs. I'll always buy one/attend a service but I'm not going to justify it and if less and less people do so, I'm not going to change my mind so why should I/anyone expect others to change theirs or justify their decision?

 

[red4ever 79]

Every year, same thread and same arguments.

My parents felt remembering the dead/injured from wars was important (probably as we had family killed in both WW's) and part of that rememberance included wearing a poppy. As a result, I've always worn one and once I became an adult, made the decision to continue to wear it (and attend a service each year).

That's my decision and everyone has the right to make their own decision.

But all the rest of the crap is irrelevant and plays into the hands of EDL, Daily Mail, anti-foreigners, etc.

Buy a poppy, don't buy a poppy but make your own decision and let others make theirs. I'll always buy one/attend a service but if less and less people do so, I'm not going to change my mind so why should I/anyone expect others to change theirs?

Well said sir.

 

[Ramshock]

McClean doesn't help himself with his pro-IRA comments.

just fecking stop with this nonsense alright? feckin hell

 

[Ramshock]

Every year, same thread and same arguments.

My parents felt remembering the dead/injured from wars was important (probably as we had family killed in both WW's) and part of that rememberance included wearing a poppy. As a result, I've always worn one and once I became an adult, made the decision to continue to wear it (and attend a service each year).

That's my decision and everyone has the right to make their own decision.

But all the rest of the crap is irrelevant and plays into the hands of EDL, Daily Mail, anti-foreigners, etc.

Buy a poppy, don't buy a poppy but make your own decision and let others make theirs. I'll always buy one/attend a service but I'm not going to justify it and if less and less people do so, I'm not going to change my mind so why should I/anyone expect others to change theirs or justify their decision?

/thread

 

[jontheblue]

absolute bollocks there.. What comments are these?? Just because of where he's from doesn't automatically make him pro-IRA. It's uneducated comments like that leads to muppets rushing the pitch like we seen at the weekend to shout abuse.

If your english/british and wish to wear one, go ahead. I fully respect that. But anyone thats not British shouldn't be expected to show up wearing one, and not receive disgusting abuse for not doing so. Some people have much more valid and personal reasons than others for not doing so. It should be left at that

Well as Mclean quoted Bobby Sands on instagram it seems a reasonable assumption

However that's not really the point and I fully agree with your second paragraph

I actually think it almost lessens the impact and meaningfulness of the poppy when you see almost every player at every club wearing one as you know deep down, most of them will barely know what it means and are just doing it because they have been told or are fearful of abuse for not wearing one. For a start, what about all the Argentinian players here ! You don't need any reason for not wearing one and you certainly shouldn't have to give a reason

Whether you are British/English or not, it's an entirely optional affair and guilt tripping people into wearing a poppy, regardless of their nationality, is so deliciously ironic it's just a shame most people are too stupid to realise

 

[hellohello]

As soon as something with as much power as football chose to so strongly support and enforce something like this questions will be asked why they don't do the same for something else. I personally would prefer if football as a whole distance itself from everything, and even things like the Leicester tragedy isn't something official and enforced.

 

[Cloud7]

Every year, same thread and same arguments.

My parents felt remembering the dead/injured from wars was important (probably as we had family killed in both WW's) and part of that rememberance included wearing a poppy. As a result, I've always worn one and once I became an adult, made the decision to continue to wear it (and attend a service each year).

That's my decision and everyone has the right to make their own decision.

But all the rest of the crap is irrelevant and plays into the hands of EDL, Daily Mail, anti-foreigners, etc.

Buy a poppy, don't buy a poppy but make your own decision and let others make theirs. I'll always buy one/attend a service but I'm not going to justify it and if less and less people do so, I'm not going to change my mind so why should I/anyone expect others to change theirs or justify their decision?

This is it really. If you want to wear one great, if you don’t, then great. Whichever you do it’s a personal choice. That’s literally all that there should be to this discussion.

 

[EireRed_GS]

Well as Mclean quoted Bobby Sands on instagram it seems a reasonable assumption

However that's not really the point and I fully agree with your second paragraph

I actually think it almost lessens the impact and meaningfulness of the poppy when you see almost every player at every club wearing one as you know deep down, most of them will barely know what it means and are just doing it because they have been told or are fearful of abuse for not wearing one. For a start, what about all the Argentinian players here ! You don't need any reason for not wearing one and you certainly shouldn't have to give a reason

Whether you are British/English or not, it's an entirely optional affair and guilt tripping people into wearing a poppy, regardless of their nationality, is so deliciously ironic it's just a shame most people are too stupid to realise

Totally agree with the Argentinian point considering history, I brought up the same comparison up at the weekend discussing it. Unfortunately these days theres plenty people that rant, shout & condemn, yet wouldn't even understand or be aware of the link/reference or reasoning

 

[jontheblue]

As soon as something with as much power as football chose to so strongly support and enforce something like this questions will be asked why they don't do the same for something else. I personally would prefer if football as a whole distance itself from everything, and even things like the Leicester tragedy isn't something official and enforced.

Agreed - The FA's arguments with FIFA a year or two ago about wearing the poppy were disgraceful - it simply had nothing to do with football. As others have hinted at, the impact of a minute's silence has pretty much been lost now they happen so frequently - you just look at your neighbour half the time asking what it's for and then shrugging your shoulders.

 

[RedRover]

Every year, same thread and same arguments.

My parents felt remembering the dead/injured from wars was important (probably as we had family killed in both WW's) and part of that rememberance included wearing a poppy. As a result, I've always worn one and once I became an adult, made the decision to continue to wear it (and attend a service each year).

That's my decision and everyone has the right to make their own decision.

But all the rest of the crap is irrelevant and plays into the hands of EDL, Daily Mail, anti-foreigners, etc.

Buy a poppy, don't buy a poppy but make your own decision and let others make theirs. I'll always buy one/attend a service but I'm not going to justify it and if less and less people do so, I'm not going to change my mind so why should I/anyone expect others to change theirs or justify their decision?

Correct. I get increasingly frustrated by this rubbish every year. Everyone has an opinion about everything these days, and worse, seems to think they can try and force that on others.

I always consider that those who laid down their lives in the great wars did so in order that we could have the freedom to make our own decisions.

 

[Casanova85]

I think it's always adequate to remember WWI, especially now (100th Year Anniversary of the armistice). Competitive sports should be the way of the nations, not war. 25 years old young men are meant for football and sport, not for going crazy in a trench or being mowed down by machine-guns or blown to pieces by a heavy howitzer.

Versailles and its many faults should also be remembered, especially by our current generation of pathetic (and dangerous) politicians worldwide.

I wish I could make a quick escapade to Ypres, Albert or Verdun this 11th Nov, but I gotta work.

 

[Welsh Wonder]

From F365 today

It may surprise those who abused Nemanja Matic and James McClean both in person and on social media on Saturday, but Premier League clubs have not always worn poppies on their shirts. In 2010, Manchester City and Manchester United played out a 0-0 draw on November 10, the day before remembrance day. Neither team had poppies embroidered on their shirts. It had not occurred to anyone to do so.

In the eight years since, English football has become a champion of poppy-wearing. Teams having poppies on their shirts is an entirely appropriate thing to do. It is a mark of respect to the fallen of the Great War, a conflict that decimated a generation which included many footballers.

Whether the official Fantasy Premier League game putting poppies on their kits for one week is necessary is far more open to debate. The suspicion is that remembrance – particularly in football – has become a competition to prove who has the most class and respect, which ironically only serves to erode the true meaning of the poppy appeal.

But wearing a symbol of remembrance must also be a choice. By attacking those who have their own personal reasons for not wearing one, critics are refusing those individuals their freedom of choice and expression. Those are precisely the ideals that our forefathers fought to protect.

Do not make the mistake, as many do, that those who choose not to wear a poppy cannot care about the victims of war; that is a nonsense. Instead, they do not agree with decorating their kit with a symbol (sold to raise money solely for the British Legion) which they believe represents a political matter, namely Britain’s actions in war. Unless you are remarkably one-eyed or overly patriotic, you can see their point.

By making the poppy an obligation, you make it meaningless. It becomes not a matter of remembrance but being seen to remember, and they are two very different things. Ultimately, it turns a symbol into an affectation.

So next year, can we please remember that forced remembrance is not remembrance at all? Can we give footballers – as we do doctors, lawyers, bricklayers and teachers – the freedom of expression to do as they see fit, not what is decreed by an angry mob?

Those who gave up their lives in conflict did so to fight for a world in which freedom of choice was a human right, not a luxury that was determined on a case-by-case basis. That tenet has been too easily forgotten in the race to shame those who to exercise that right.

 

[Baxter]

Poppys on shirts is a recent phenomenon though. Why would a football player need to explain himself over a what? 8 year rabble fest?

It’s fecking weird. When did this whole forced patriotism become so big? It certainly wasn’t tradition.

Nothing shows dignity and respect like slapping a big feck off poppy on the front of your Vauxhall.

 

[Dave89]

McClean doesn't help himself with his pro-IRA comments.

Can we do something about people posting complete and utter lies about such serious topics in here please? This fake shit is why death threats get sent to footballers.

 

[padzilla]

Can we not just ban all political gestures from sports altogether?

 

[El Zoido]

It’s fecking weird. When did this whole forced patriotism become so big? It certainly wasn’t tradition.

Nothing shows dignity and respect like slapping a big feck off poppy on the front of your Vauxhall.

Same time the Tories took power. When a government implements austerity measures they also seek to bolster patriotism to offset it. It’s the way the tides were turning, 2010 was also the same year The Great British Bake Off started and we began to have a swathe of things called “The Great British” blah blah. Poppy is now just another symbol of being a True Patriotic Brit.

 

[Barca84]

Can we do something about people posting complete and utter lies about such serious topics in here please? This fake shit is why death threats get sent to footballers.

Emotive stuff and when he starts quoting Bobby Sands you can understand why some would think so...

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...rough-instagram-ira-bobby-sands-a8616746.html

 

[Dobba]

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[Barca84]

Can we not just ban all political gestures from sports altogether?

Well a stumbling block is defining what is a political gesture and what isn't. Pep and his yellow ribbon for example.

The simple approach is a human rights based one where people have freedom of expression. Remove the poppy from the shirts and I bet you some footballers will be demanding the right to wear it so leave it up to the individual? Want to wear a shirt with the poppy in it? Great. Don't want to? Great.

 

[Wedge]

I'm a current serving service man and I've nit worn a poppy on my uniform a number of years and it doesn't bother me or others, I respect a players choice and I understand the reasons why and as long as they are respectful and by that I mean not saying anything offensive, example again matic then I say good for them. The poppy used to mean so much, more now it just comes across as a political wacking stick to hit others with.

 

[stevoc]

Well a stumbling block is defining what is a political gesture and what isn't. Pep and his yellow ribbon for example.

The simple approach is a human rights based one where people have freedom of expression. Remove the poppy from the shirts and I bet you some footballers will be demanding the right to wear it so leave it up to the individual? Want to wear a shirt with the poppy in it? Great. Don't want to? Great.

Yeah a start would be to stop embroidering or printing them onto the shirts. Have a box of pin on ones in the dressing room before the game and those who wish to wear one can. That way when you see a player wearing one it actually means something.

 

[Barca84]

Yeah a start would be to stop embroidering or printing them onto the shirts. Have a box of pin on ones in the dressing room before the game and those who wish to wear one can. That way when you see a player wearing one it actually means something.

Bit sharp and pointy?

 

[DomesticTadpole]

I'm a current serving service man and I've nit worn a poppy on my uniform a number of years and it doesn't bother me or others, I respect a players choice and I understand the reasons why and as long as they are respectful and by that I mean not saying anything offensive, example again Matic then I say good for them. The poppy used to mean so much, more now it just comes across as a political wacking stick to hit others with.

I agree with you fully, my great, great grandad died in WWI and he is buried in France, no repatriating bodies then, my great grandad was in the army as was my grandad. As you say the poppy is now used politically instead of what it was supposed to be about and that is so sad.

 

[Okey]

Getting fed up of this every year. Surely it's obvious that the decision to wear a poppy should be an individual one? Now a player is having to explain to us why he made a deeply personal choice. And McLean is being investigated for criticising fans, but the fans are not being investigated for abusing him. Shame really...

 

[Cassidy]

absolute bollocks there.. What comments are these?? Just because of where he's from doesn't automatically make him pro-IRA. It's uneducated comments like that leads to muppets rushing the pitch like we seen at the weekend to shout abuse.

If your english/british and wish to wear one, go ahead. I fully respect that. But anyone thats not British shouldn't be expected to show up wearing one, and not receive disgusting abuse for not doing so. Some people have much more valid and personal reasons than others for not doing so. It should be left at that

Even if you’re British you shouldnt be forced to wear one

 

[Reddy Rederson]

It’s hilarious that all these people that fought and died for freedom from tyranny and oppression are now used as a stick to guilt people into doing things against thier will. It still astounds me that people fall into that trap time and again. They mean well I’m sure, but the execution leaves a lot to be desired.

The poppy to me is faux patriotism. If we really wanted to do right by our men and women in uniform, we wouldn’t be using them as cannon folder for political interests. At the very least we’d be taking better care of those that are alive and damaged by the bullshit Wars the inbred rich people send them off to fight. We can find money for bombs and jets at the drop of a hat, but when it comes time to taking care of people there’s no money and it’s left to charity to make up the short fall.

Surely we can do better?

 

[Buchan]

McClean is bang on here.

 

[stevoc]

Bit sharp and pointy?

I'm sure with 21st century technology we can figure out a way of putting a badge on a shirt that doesn't risk serious injury.

 

[oates]

Can we not just ban all political gestures from sports altogether?

What are your feelings on the Kick Racism Out campaign? That being political, do you feel that should be removed?

 

[RedDevil@84]

It is not just the UK mind you. Many nations are developing this emphasis on overt nationalism and symbolism. Extreme glorification of the armed forces, thereby looking down, abusing, bashing people who do not really have an opinion on armed forces is on the rise I feel. Especially, given the safety and anonymity of social media.

I had this argument with many of my ultra-national friends in my country. They say "Our armed forces are awesome. They do a great job". I say "Yes, I agree"
Then they say "Our armed forces can't put a step wrong" and I go like "Really!! Forces are controlled by govts who have their own agendas. So pretty unlikely"

And then they go "How dare you!!! You don't love your country enough"

 

[padzilla]

What are your feelings on the Kick Racism Out campaign? That being political, do you feel that should be removed?

There should be no need for a Kick Out Racism campaign if the football authorities had taken the issue seriously and take appropriate action against racists by banning them from grounds or prosecuting them. Football is sickening at times, remember how Liverpool and Chelsea fans rallied around Suarez and John Terry simply because they were good players for their team. It seems like any behaviour is acceptable as long as its own of our own. Are the fans who booed McClean being investigated? Plus FIFA actually said it would take action against players leaving the pitch during a game who felt they were being subjected to racist abuse.