'Powerful' Pogba and 'unintelligent' Lukaku | Debunking media stereotypes

[swooshboy]

Very good post - this depth is the reason I still prefer the Caf to Twitter for getting under the skin of issues.

I've watched both seasons of Last Chance U - great documentary. Any other recommendations for me?

Funny thing about the NBA and NFL is that their players consistently come across as eloquent and deep thinking on a range of issues.

Football has really cosseted its players to the point that all we ever really hear is PR approved soundbites.

We are way off piste now!

Part of that is down to the college system in the US. Those who play in the NFL would have been the stars of their university teams, and those who played at university would have been the stars of their high school teams and so on. So they are exposed to the media from a young age, so would be a combination of becoming more comfortable with it, plus having likely received media communications training.

 

[Henrik Larsson]

There is allot of confirmation bias flying around. People have found 1 example to the contrary of whatever point of view they have and think that it undermines the argument. It's not that simple. The fact that I have called players of every shade/hue a "Donkey" at one time or another during a match does not debunk or strengthen an argument based on proper reseacrch and statistics.

That's a very valid point. Obviously you can come up with countless of examples of non-black players who are stereotyped in exactly the way or manner as Pogba and Lukaku as described in the article.

Reversely the rather obvious bottom line is that, in general, you won't find many black people living in the Western world who aren't (at the very least occasionally, but usually regularly) suffering from some form of negative stereotyping. Which makes it incredibly unlikely that the same type of stereotyping isn't prevalent in the world of sport/footballing world/football journalism.

 

[villain]

Also if you're familiar with ESPN's 30 for 30 documentaries then watch those also, there's a lot of individual series in that that highlights these very issues @Feed Me, the one about Ben Wilson in particular is one of my favourite sports documentaries ever.

 

[BobbyManc]

Good article. Toure is a prime example. He was always a 'physical beast' first and foremost, even though he's possibly the most technically gifted player I've ever seen in a City shirt. There is a definite emphasis on the physical prowess of players of colour, whereas a white player is more likely to be praised for their technical skills. I think Rooney is a good example. How often is his physicality used when praising him? Very rarely, I'd say. Instead we always hear about how intelligent he is on the pitch, his movement, the timing of his runs etc. If he was black, I guarantee his physicality would be cited far more frequently.

I would, however, defend the comparison of players to someone of the same race, irrespective of how lazy it is. Skin colour is an obvious feature of someone's appearance, so people will see Kante in a Chelsea shirt and compare him to Makelele. Likewise, people will see Dybala in an Argentina shirt and compare him to Messi. I do not have a problem with this in itself, but I do agree that comparisons such as Lukaku and Heskey are more problematic.

 

[eddiegordo]

Good article. Toure is a prime example. He was always a 'physical beast' first and foremost, even though he's possibly the most technically gifted player I've ever seen in a City shirt. There is a definite emphasis on the physical prowess of players of colour, whereas a white player is more likely to be praised for their technical skills. I think Rooney is a good example. How often is his physicality used when praising him? Very rarely, I'd say. Instead we always hear about how intelligent he is on the pitch, his movement, the timing of his runs etc. If he was black, I guarantee his physicality would be cited far more frequently.

I would, however, defend the comparison of players to someone of the same race, irrespective of how lazy it is. Skin colour is an obvious feature of someone's appearance, so people will see Kante in a Chelsea shirt and compare him to Makelele. Likewise, people will see Dybala in an Argentina shirt and compare him to Messi. I do not have a problem with this in itself, but I do agree that comparisons such as Lukaku and Heskey are more problematic.

Again, confirmation bias at work. Rooney was consistently noted for his physicality, he looked like a full grown man at 16. You are only seeing so much racism because you are looking for it far too much.

I wouldn't start looking at american media to form an argument either, to address 'racism' in america, in some states, black students are being let in to Universities with lower grades than white or Asian peers to boost numbers. Black students are having points added to their grade averages, asian students are having points DEDUCTED as they are over represented in universities.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

I'll be honest it's hard to find a player similar to Pogba to compare to as he has bucket loads of everything and I can't think of another player today with his broad range of talents.

Let's take Matic and William Carvalho as two extremely similar players. Which would more widely be described as a powerhouse, physical presence and which would be described as using intelligence to read the game well?

Matic is more powerful, Carvalho is more dynamic.

They're different players. While Matic is the better player, when playing for identical teams I'd say that Carvalho has the tools needed to best Pogba. (I don't think either would).

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Well said.

Thanks.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

See my post above though - Kante gets compared to Makelele plenty, and that's an even less sensible footballing comparison than Vieira would be. But he's a short black guy, so...

And also as above, no-one ever compares Matic to Vieira, which kind of negates your point because they're peas in a pod.

Matic is more like Petit than Vieira.

I don't base that on skin colour. Vieira would drive an extra ten yards compared to Petit, who would pass sooner.

 

[RedChip]

Was he fast?

I was 5ft5in and fast as a kid. How many times do you think I got asked to play centre back at a new club?

Generalisations and assumptions are not racist commentaries.

I would say that this is the definition of racisim if the basis for the generalisation or assumption is race.

 

[Sparky10Legend]

I believe a lot of English pundits don't take their job seriously and put in the hours and study time required to be really good at being an analyst and therefore should be considered much more lazy than many of the players they are trying to analyze on the television. In addition, the English media are very partial to their national team players and dare not to stir the pot too much.

How many English journos are colored, doing match commentary (not studio sound bites), etc. I don't believe there's a lot.

None, there may, however, be some black or mixed race ones......

 

[tomaldinho1]

This doesn't happen. People mention his athleticism a lot. But they always highlight his touch, several key passes. His ability to carry the ball through lines in midfield.

Pundits have routinely highlighted that it's not Pogbas game to sit in a two and break up play and that it's a waste of money if Jose expects that of him. That his talents are as an attacking threat and as a ball carrier.

If anything they've been highlighting how big and strong Matic is. A white guy. They did the same with Ibra "He'll beat up defences".

You could re-write that whole article and quote how Serbs/Russians etc are all tagged with 'Big, tough, hard men".

Yes, sometimes descriptors are used that are lazy. But they're not grounded in racism ffs.

Yh I agree with this part, FYI I'm not saying all is ground in racism but it is lazy commentators/pundits that fuel this kind of article.

None of us need someone to tell us that Rashford is quick, Ibra is big or that any player is 'hard' for example. This is just basic and lazy analysis. I think G Nev became so popular as a pundit because he would analyse team's tactically in a way I found interesting and helped me understand football better. I like to think I understand football to a decent level having played all my life so I want pundits to refrain from just taking the easy option - 'Milner is not a natural left back but he has a great engine and does a job' type commentary.

 

[BusbyMalone]

Whatever about stereotyping the various skills/attributes of individual players according to their race (which I do believe happens) fans and pundits definitely bias comparisons according to race. I remember someone on twitter saying how much Mbappe reminded him of a young Van Persie which was so refreshing to hear because 99% of the comparisons you would usually hear about him are with black players only. The lack of Pogba/Zidane comparisons is for similar reasons.

Slightly taking this thread off topic, but this is a good video comparing Pogba and Zidane. You've probably seen it as i think it was posted in the Pogba thread the summer we signed him. It's during their times at Juventus.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

That's something I noticed often, too. Black and white players almost never get compared, it's kind of 'segregated' in that respect.

They do. Pay attention.

Essien - Keane
Pogba - Gerrard
Pique - Ferdinand
Hargreaves - Makelele
Cole - Shearer (tenuous)
Ferdinand - Sammer
Vardy - Defoe
Defoe - Phillips

Also, very good black players being compared to very good black players is now a bad thing?!? Jesus wept.

 

[SteveJ]

Again, confirmation bias at work. Rooney was consistently noted for his physicality, he looked like a full grown man at 16. You are only seeing so much racism because you are looking for it far too much.

I wouldn't start looking at american media to form an argument either, to address 'racism' in america, in some states, black students are being let in to Universities with lower grades than white or Asian peers to boost numbers. Black students are having points added to their grade averages, asian students are having points DEDUCTED as they are over represented in universities.

People's concerns about issues aren't silenced by the usual get-outs employed by casual thinkers ("It's just faux-outrage from virtue signalling snowflake bleeding heart liberals from the planet Twitbook"; "You're just looking to be offended"; "I'm bored with people discussing things that don't affect me" etc). So, better luck next time.

 

[villain]

Again, confirmation bias at work. Rooney was consistently noted for his physicality, he looked like a full grown man at 16. You are only seeing so much racism because you are looking for it far too much.

I wouldn't start looking at american media to form an argument either, to address 'racism' in america, in some states, black students are being let in to Universities with lower grades than white or Asian peers to boost numbers. Black students are having points added to their grade averages, asian students are having points DEDUCTED as they are over represented in universities.

They do. Pay attention.

Essien - Keane
Pogba - Gerrard
Pique - Ferdinand
Hargreaves - Makelele
Cole - Shearer (tenuous)
Ferdinand - Sammer
Vardy - Defoe
Defoe - Phillips

Also, very good black players being compared to very good black players is now a bad thing?!? Jesus wept.

My god.

This thread is like a never-ending cycle of confirmation bias and people refusing to see racism, unless it meets their standards of what racism is or should be.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Man Utd had the best centre backs pairing in all times with vidic and Ferdinand.

Vidic, because of his darker skin colour, was always perceived as the powerful and strong one between the two.

While Ferdinand, whom has a lighter skin colour, was always thought as the intelligent one that covers for vidic.

If that is not blatant racism then I don't know what is. Was surprised the author did not use this example to prove his point.

Aside from the fact Ferdinand is black (albeit light skinned) and Vidic is white?

Your point of White Vidic = Destroying animal & Black Rio = cultured footballer is solid though.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Bill Burr has a great bit on this.

Bill Burr has a great bit on everything.

(Post baby at least. He's way too soft now)

 

[Lentwood]

I don't think there is any doubt about it tbh - there is an implicit racism in the way the media portray black footballers. I highly doubt it is deliberate but that doesn't excuse it.

If you disagree, I would ask you to name me one black African player who is talked of first and foremost as having a great footballing brain and brilliant technical ability, because I can't think of one! They are usually portrayed as powerful athletes who race around the pitch getting stuck into the opposition.

Also, Eric Bailly, for example, is a great footballer. Very adept at passing the ball out from the back and has a great first touch. Is this ever mentioned? Nope.

 

[eddiegordo]

People's concerns about issues aren't silenced by the usual get-outs emoloyed by casual thinkers ("It's just faux-outrage from virtue signalling snowflake bleeding heart liberals from the planet Twitbook"; "You're just looking to be offended"; "I'm bored with people discussing things that don't affect me" etc). So, better luck next time.

What made you assume I am a casual thinker on this subject? Socrates once said; "when the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser"

Again, if you have an intelligent response to what I said, please state it, if the best response you can come up with is the above, you already lost the debate.

I called out, something that was frankly a lie, that Rooney was never commented for his physicality when the fact is that was one of the most striking and commented-on things about him, especially during his emergence due to his youth. The fact the person I replied to tried using Rooney as an example shows he hasn't put proper thought in to what he was saying, and is crying racism for the sake of it. It gets old fast, and weakens peoples arguments when actual racism occurs.

 

[Rozay]

'The strength of Roberts and the pace of Camara' - pretty much what the combination that Wigan deployed was referenced as every game.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

My god.

This thread is like a never-ending cycle of confirmation bias and people refusing to see racism, unless it meets their standards of what racism is or should be.

No idea why you've quoted me there. Do you not think those players were ever compared?

PM if you think it's off. Don't want to rant at each other in-thread.

 

[Feed Me]

Yep precisely!
You can apply the same logic to South America and futsal developing the technical skill of these players also.



Hoop Dreams is probably one of the best sports documentaries out there and really highlights everything I talked about.
Iverson is fantastic also, his entire career was centered around a lot of stereotypes, and in a way he's influenced a lot about NBA players today, off the court as much as on it.
CounterPunch - which focuses on the impact that the likes of Mayweather have had for influencing a generation of black kids who aspire to be just like him.
If you can find the documentary about LeBron then i'd definitely recommend that also.
OJ Made in America is really great because that discusses the racial aspect quite heavily throughout.

I've seen Iverson and OJ: Made in America - the latter is superb, and far better than The People vs OJ Simpson.

I'll look into your other suggestions - thanks.

 

[Feed Me]

yeah I'm sure Sterling go it worse than most, especially at that age. Apparently that rag paper was following him about in a Gregg's and all that.

They're absolute scum and the entire Sterling discourse now seems to centre on a characature of the bloke being a greedy, money grabbing, show off.

It all stemmed from him wanting to better himself by leaving Liverpool.

 

[villain]

No idea why you've quoted me there. Do you not think those players were ever compared?

PM if you think it's off. Don't want to rant at each other in-thread.

Your series of posts in this thread is the reason I quoted you.
The fact that myself and at least 2/3 other people have pointed out that highlighting a few individuals which don't fit the stereotype, or contrast whatever argument being made doesn't take away from the fact that on a wider level - this is an issue.

Therefore plucking out a handful of examples is only done to deflect from the main point that's been debated.
So @Synco saying 'black players almost never get compared to white players' and you highlighting a few black players who have been compared to white players doesn't make his point any less true at all. All it does is make you look like you're going out of your way to prove that his point isn't factual.

But I'm happy to take this to PM's.

 

[kouroux]

Literally no one worth their salt has called him "dumb" though - that would be outrageous and totally unacceptable. People like Henry and Pardew have called a spade a spade: Rom is a great finisher but he needs to refine his game now he's stepped up to play at United.

And before anyone counters my point with Merson, I'm not getting into it - the man is a certified imbecile. The fact that he compared Morata favourably to Lukaku is more a reflection of his anti-United stance, which has been a feature of his punditry for years.

Maybe the word isn't clearly used but the idea behind it is that Lukaku isn't a clever player.

 

[Feed Me]

I think this is a big issue, and I think the pundits do reinforce it. There's racial stereotyping in a lot of the off-field reporting and it gets brought through into the way pundits talk about "off field antics" and throw around words like lazy, indisciplined etc that plays back into it.

Even on here, there's often a general response to our Spanish players social media presence that talks about how good it is for team bonding etc. Whereas black players often seem to get responses that feel like accusations of irresponsibility or lack of focus.

It's a very good point, actually. Lingard gets pelters as compared with the likes of Mata. That said, I don't think Jesse helps himself with the nature of some of the stuff he posts online. That said, I'm sure I was as much, if not more, of a tit aged 24

 

[villain]

They're absolute scum and the entire Sterling discourse now seems to centre on a characature of the bloke being a greedy, money grabbing, show off.

It all stemmed from him wanting to better himself by leaving Liverpool.

Before he left Liverpool the media would print out stories about him having multiple baby mothers and lots of kids - even I believed it until I actually took the time to find out the truth.

 

[SteveJ]

What made you assume I am a casual thinker on this subject? Socrates once said; "when the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser"

Again, if you have an intelligent response to what I said, please state it, if the best response you can come up with is the above, you already lost the debate..

Your general impatience with this subject - clearly evident in your posts - makes you appear little better than the 'casual thinkers' I mentioned.

I note, also, that your discussion of Rooney omits the other cliché endlessly spouted about him: his 'fantastic football brain' (something that's debatable at least).

By the way, neither you nor Socrates get to decide when the argument is lost.

 

[kouroux]

I don't think there is any doubt about it tbh - there is an implicit racism in the way the media portray black footballers. I highly doubt it is deliberate but that doesn't excuse it.

If you disagree, I would ask you to name me one black African player who is talked of first and foremost as having a great footballing brain and brilliant technical ability, because I can't think of one! They are usually portrayed as powerful athletes who race around the pitch getting stuck into the opposition.

Also, Eric Bailly, for example, is a great footballer. Very adept at passing the ball out from the back and has a great first touch. Is this ever mentioned? Nope.

This, x100

 

[Feed Me]

Part of that is down to the college system in the US. Those who play in the NFL would have been the stars of their university teams, and those who played at university would have been the stars of their high school teams and so on. So they are exposed to the media from a young age, so would be a combination of becoming more comfortable with it, plus having likely received media communications training.

Good point - and while they were at university, they were probably picking up a lot of good knowledge of transferable skills. In England, serious footballers basically drop their education at 16.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

I would say that this is the definition of racisim if the basis for the generalisation or assumption is race.

There are a million people lined up. You need to pick one at random to solve a math problem. What do they look like?

Same sample size every time, you need to get the best result;

- an engineering problem
- a 100m sprint
- a fight
- a long distance run
- a parallel park (kidding)
- pour a pint
- wrestle
- swim 100m
- penis size

Everyone knows their answers. Stereotyping is not racism. Asians are good at math, white folks are engineers, etc etc. For a perfect pint I'm picking a ginger that looks Irish.

I'm sure as shit not picking an athletic black male to swim and win. There will be a white guy with huge shoulders, a triangle shaped torso and thin enough legs in there.

Why do people have an issue with saying that different races and nationalities are predisposed to be above average straight out the gate? It's ok.

If anyone finds me to be bigoted for this shit, pm me. I'll give you my number and we can talk.

This whole thread issue is rapidly becoming centred on political correctness and protectionism.

 

[Feed Me]

Before he left Liverpool the media would print out stories about him having multiple baby mothers and lots of kids - even I believed it until I actually took the time to find out the truth.

That's a good point, actually. Now you mention it, I remember there were a number of jokes made on the Caf about it.

 

[Feed Me]

Good article. Toure is a prime example. He was always a 'physical beast' first and foremost, even though he's possibly the most technically gifted player I've ever seen in a City shirt. There is a definite emphasis on the physical prowess of players of colour, whereas a white player is more likely to be praised for their technical skills. I think Rooney is a good example. How often is his physicality used when praising him? Very rarely, I'd say. Instead we always hear about how intelligent he is on the pitch, his movement, the timing of his runs etc. If he was black, I guarantee his physicality would be cited far more frequently.

I would, however, defend the comparison of players to someone of the same race, irrespective of how lazy it is. Skin colour is an obvious feature of someone's appearance, so people will see Kante in a Chelsea shirt and compare him to Makelele. Likewise, people will see Dybala in an Argentina shirt and compare him to Messi. I do not have a problem with this in itself, but I do agree that comparisons such as Lukaku and Heskey are more problematic.

Good parallel drawn between Toure and Rooney. When it comes to the former, I agree that he's a technically fantastic player, but the first thing that comes to mind for me at his peak was him ramraiding his way through entire teams and players bouncing off him - I don't think I've seen a more apt use of the word "tank" than in Toure's case, and I mean that in nothing but glowing terms. I used to watch in awe and shit myself when United went up against him.

When it comes to Rooney, the modern day version isn't talked about for his physicality, but when he broke through until the age of about 26 he was often refererred to as a boy in a man's body, a force of nature and I've lost count of the times his family's affinity with boxing has been brought up.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Your series of posts in this thread is the reason I quoted you.
The fact that myself and at least 2/3 other people have pointed out that highlighting a few individuals which don't fit the stereotype, or contrast whatever argument being made doesn't take away from the fact that on a wider level - this is an issue.

Therefore plucking out a handful of examples is only done to deflect from the main point that's been debated.
So @Synco saying 'black players almost never get compared to white players' and you highlighting a few black players who have been compared to white players doesn't make his point any less true at all. All it does is make you look like you're going out of your way to prove that his point isn't factual.

But I'm happy to take this to PM's.

Sure. Flick me one if you have questions.

Just think about how many of each side represents cherry picking. That wasn't my goal. I felt I have enough to rebut the post.

Just because you're smart, doesn't mean you're right.

Usain Bolt is rarely compared with anyone. Who is Tyson Gay compared with? Or Mo Farah? It sure as hell is never a white guy.

Football is waaaay more nuanced than athletics, but players of a certain build will always be compared to players that resemble them because 99% of the time, build is correlated with output.

Modric, Iniesta, Xavi, Silva, Scholes... complete that set with world class black footballers. Nedved, Giggs, Robben, Ronaldo... same again.

It's not that black footballers cannot thread a pass or drop a shoulder.

But as a subset, black footballers (and humans) are a few inches taller and stronger. All the way through their football education they thrive off of their 'advantages' and live by them. If you're an extra yard faster or a few inches taller you simply don't have to be insanely perfect at things*.

The best spot to look is in the true melting pot. Kaka, Ronaldinho, Veron, South American players basically. No real black or white. Just a bunch of footballers that cross this weird divide that people seem to feel exists.

The idea that you can't generalise or that black = black and white = white is juvenile.

I am Certain that some old as fcuk daft pundits spout nonsense. But this forum is way smarter than that.



*Players that become world class all work almost exactly as hard as each other. (Excluding Ronaldinho, he was born with stardust).

 

[Hullyback]

Absolute tosh. Utter horror show of an article. Go looking for an angle and you'll find one.

Lukaku is not as nuanced as Sheringham or as naturally talented with his feet as Ibra and I'd argue he doesn't have that natural ability that Ruud had. Yet I could trade those three out for Djorkaeff, Henry and Weah. It's not a black/white thing.

But he's never called out for being 'unintelligent' by the majority. He always comes across as measured and is referenced for being cerebral more often than the opposite. People often cite him as a huge study of the game and his ability to speak several languages.

Lukaku is more like Ronaldo than anyone else. 'How do I get better? Because I'll do it all'. He's not the guy that floats and plays intricate one-twos. He doesn't ghost into penalty boxes. He's frickin huge. He's a danger that defenders have to pay attention to all the time. He works on his movement to find space. He works on his weaknesses. That's a far better character trait to have than almost anything else.

The Henry comment was not "Oh, people say black players are stupid". Peoples say that footballers are stupid.

ALL footballers get called stupid more often than not. Clumsy footballers get called clumsy. We didn't call Wellbeck Bambi because he's black. We did it because he couldn't stay on his feet. Ditto for Falcao. Forlan copped the same kind of flack. Roy Keane would have been called all the same things if he was White & English or Black & French.

The starting point for the article could, and should have been "Lukaku and Pogba don't get enough credit for how damn good they are". But that will provoke zero controversy, so let's go with race.

To be clear : I'm sure there are some in the media with daft ideas and ideals. Not really shining a light on that. Just pointing out that the 'article' is shite.

Great post. it's reverse racism if anything, making a big deal out of something that isn't even there and nobody would have even thought about until the journalist yammers on. Ali G sprang to mind as soon as I started reading that article.

 

[tommkell]

I think you all need to look at this in the context of which it was said. All footballers are technical, when someone is of far higher technical qualities than their peers, their technically is going to be noted & commented on.

No one is saying someone like Lakuku is rubbish technically, but you will find that a characteristic that west African players commonly are superior in to White/Asian counterparts, is athleticism. I have actually seen much more articles on Ibrahimovic's, Ronaldo's & David Luiz' athleticism than I ever have of any black player, so I think Gary Linekar has a point when he says you don't see it because you aren't looking for it.

The guy's reply on twitter however was pretty racist, saying when are white players described as 'small, slow and weak'. I think this shows, like usual, the people crying about racism tend to be the racists themselves. That guy clearly has an underlying complex.

If it's so offensive that black players are commented in a positive light on their athleticism, then maybe the people who get offended shouldn't play sports. Advantageous traits in sports are always going to be commented on, Black boxers are continuously noted for their speed, it isn't racist, it's just impressive how fast some West Africans are. The fact is their are differences between populations in terms of physical ability, more black players are going to be faster than more white players, so more black players are going to be commented on this aspect of their game than white players. It isn't racism, it's a fact of life.

The most recent athletes I have seen commented on on having footballing intelligence, was an article on Kante & an article on Evra, who are both black.

I get their is a problem with racism in parts of the world, but it get's to a point where it just gets silly. There are stupid things you see, like comparisons of black players for no other reason than they are black (i.e. comparisons to Heskey, like mentioned earlier), I agree with this completely and always raise my eyebrows when I see it.

At the same time, guess what, look at the 100m, 200m, 400m 1500m etc etc. Black people dominate sports with a few exceptions, & if you play close attention, Black people utterly dominate sports that don't cost any money to play. If black populations tend to produce more athletic humans than other populations, it's likely that more black players are going to be noted for being athletic.

100% this. Always thought myself that people who love to cry racism over anything they can are the ones with racist tendencies. And why is it racist to compare two black players? Should I get offended if someone compares two white players? If anything it can highlight the person doing the comparisons lack of knowledge or their stupidity but to me calling it racism can be silly. Some people just love to be offended.

 

[EyeInTheSky]

That's a very valid point. Obviously you can come up with countless of examples of non-black players who are stereotyped in exactly the way or manner as Pogba and Lukaku as described in the article.

Reversely the rather obvious bottom line is that, in general, you won't find many black people living in the Western world who aren't (at the very least occasionally, but usually regularly) suffering from some form of negative stereotyping. Which makes it incredibly unlikely that the same type of stereotyping isn't prevalent in the world of sport/footballing world/football journalism.

Agree. Also, it's only a matter of time in a thread of this nature before the "PC gone mad" police turn this into an echo chamber and for the "snow flakes" to go to war with them. There are different types of people in this scenario where they think that nothing is racist unless it's an overt and glaringly obvious use of racial slurs. This type will come out in defence of anyone accused of being racially motivated before they know the facts or have a default position of innocence. Then you get the other side of the spectrum where comments are taken out of context and are seen as racist.

I have noticed on here that there are people who will come out in numbers to defend a comment that on the face of it seems let's say "controversial" but when there is an incident where no one their right mind would argue against as being racist (physically or verbally) they are nowhere to be seen. You will find them on certain other threads where if something happens and is caused by a non-white spewing their garbage.

 

[RedChip]

There are a million people lined up. You need to pick one at random to solve a math problem. What do they look like?

Same sample size every time, you need to get the best result;

- an engineering problem
- a 100m sprint
- a fight
- a long distance run
- a parallel park (kidding)
- pour a pint
- wrestle
- swim 100m
- penis size

Everyone knows their answers. Stereotyping is not racism. Asians are good at math, white folks are engineers, etc etc. For a perfect pint I'm picking a ginger that looks Irish.

I'm sure as shit not picking an athletic black male to swim and win. There will be a white guy with huge shoulders, a triangle shaped torso and thin enough legs in there.

Why do people have an issue with saying that different races and nationalities are predisposed to be above average straight out the gate? It's ok.

If anyone finds me to be bigoted for this shit, pm me. I'll give you my number and we can talk.

This whole thread issue is rapidly becoming centred on political correctness and protectionism.

I'm sorry but it is racist. It may not be egregious racism, but it definitely is.

Here is one of the definitions of racism from dictionary:

the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

Sounds a lot like stereotyping by race to me. This is why, for example, using algorithms to predict which individuals are going to engage in a crime can be racist.

 

[P-Nut]

They're absolute scum and the entire Sterling discourse now seems to centre on a characature of the bloke being a greedy, money grabbing, show off.

It all stemmed from him wanting to better himself by leaving Liverpool.

Before he left Liverpool the media would print out stories about him having multiple baby mothers and lots of kids - even I believed it until I actually took the time to find out the truth.

Although not wanting to be nice to a city player I once saw Sterling in a furniture shop near my house. He's incredibly switched on and actually sensible with money. His sister wanted a bedroom suite that was around 8k and he told her to pick something cheaper as the price was extortionate. For a player with money coming out of his ears it was refreshing to hear that he still had a sense of what money is worth.

I realise you were both already making similar points but wanted to add my 2 cents to back up your earlier points.

There are a million people lined up. You need to pick one at random to solve a math problem. What do they look like?

Same sample size every time, you need to get the best result;

- an engineering problem
- a 100m sprint
- a fight
- a long distance run
- a parallel park (kidding)
- pour a pint
- wrestle
- swim 100m
- penis size

Everyone knows their answers. Stereotyping is not racism. Asians are good at math, white folks are engineers, etc etc. For a perfect pint I'm picking a ginger that looks Irish.

I'm sure as shit not picking an athletic black male to swim and win. There will be a white guy with huge shoulders, a triangle shaped torso and thin enough legs in there.

Why do people have an issue with saying that different races and nationalities are predisposed to be above average straight out the gate? It's ok.

If anyone finds me to be bigoted for this shit, pm me. I'll give you my number and we can talk.

This whole thread issue is rapidly becoming centred on political correctness and protectionism.

See now because you yourself have a preconceived idea about who will be best do you not think that, that in itself is part of the problem. How do you know in your theoretical list of people that there isn't a black engineer that is the best of the lot to do that job?

In the same situation I'd probably take a minute to ask if anyone had any experience in the field I was choosing for instead of basing everything off of what they look like.

 

[Synco]

They do. Pay attention.

Essien - Keane
Pogba - Gerrard
Pique - Ferdinand
Hargreaves - Makelele
Cole - Shearer (tenuous)
Ferdinand - Sammer
Vardy - Defoe
Defoe - Phillips

Also, very good black players being compared to very good black players is now a bad thing?!? Jesus wept.

Not sure you understand the concept of the word 'almost'. You can argue that 'almost never' is too strong, and I'll think about it. But the general tendency is there, and as far as my experience goes, your examples are still in the minority in everyday football talk.

Your last paragraph is completely besides the point, but I guess you already know that.