Premier League Gameweek 17 | Stop flogging a dead thread - Damien

[Fridge chutney]

People should also stop using Chelsea as an example of why managers do not need time. Comparing them to Liverpool or United, the core of whose squad have not won the league in recent years, is a false equivalence. Chelsea's core remains intact from when they won 16 months ago. They strengthened with Kante, who was key to Leicester winning the title 6 months ago.

Will we really discredit how far Klopp has brought Liverpool despite him finishing 8th last season and winning nothing? Of course not. Absurd. He needs time and the fruits of his labour are beginning to pay off.

Same thing with Mourinho (and begrudgingly, Pep). We as United fans are starting to see his team gel. It was more turbulent to start than many thought, and I expect more turbulence. But the things that I am certain of so far:

1) all of his signings have been absolutely class, despite Pogba's and Mhiki's lackluster start and Ibra's "goal drought". And Pogba's stats are more impressive than when he was part of the FIFA 11. Even though he has not reached that level yet for united, in my opinion.

2)And we are more interesting to watch than we were under LVG.

 

[Ramshock]

at the title. Henderson is a very good player so we cant deny that anymore. However he wont be at the same level as Pogba when both are at their peaks.

 

[Fridge chutney]

Why does it feel like a Liverpool forum in the footy section these days?

There are millions of Pool supporters here. That Klopper guy lives here. I don't mind the odd opposition fan but in all honesty I did join RedCafe to chat with fellow Utd supporters in general.

Seems like they can WUM all they want too.

The # of oppos makes this forum much more interesting. It would be a shame to lose that dynamic. And that klopper guy is one of the best posters on this website.

 

[Ruffian]

Nah, I'm pretty sure no one has proclaimed that Henderson is better than Pogba. It's probably just someone who phrased his opinion a bit wrong, a United fan picked up on it or interpreted it wrong and from there on, it's an easy leap to "Henderson better than Pogba? Feck sake all scousers are so delusional it's unreal", while I think (the majority of) Liverpool fans haven't said much wrong on the matter.

In fact, the last 100 posts are almost exclusively people saying the same thing who seem to agree with each other but express it differently - Henderson is having a great season but because Pogba is a superior talent and footballer, his performances are simply measured by higher standards. It's also pretty pointless to compare them or their statistics because they're very different players playing in very different roles carrying out very different tasks.

If they both continue playing like they have been, I'm sure they'll both have a strong case to be included in the team of the season come May.

Yep, good post. The title of the thread is silly, needlessly provocative.

Pogba is one of the most gifted players in the league, Henderson is an effective and very hard working midfielder.

 

[TheReligion]

at the title. Henderson is a very good player so we cant deny that anymore. However he wont be at the same level as Pogba when both are at their peaks.

He's not at the same level now either

 

[njred]

at the title. Henderson is a very good player so we cant deny that anymore. However he wont be at the same level as Pogba when both are at their peaks.

I agree with that. Pogba on his day is one of the best.I can only see him getting better at United. Henderson fits Klopps team perfectly though. All action and lately seems to be on the ball constantly.

 

[Bwuk]

Just seen the thread title.

Jesus. Pogba before he came here, every top side wanted him. If Henderson left Liverpool he'd be going to a lesser side, no better team would want him.

 

[TheReligion]

Check out his goals against Norwich, City, Chelsea, Swansea, Burnley and tell me he isn't a footballer.

Pogba cost a world record sum, respectfully speaking I don't think he is worth even half of what you paid (won't even get into his wages), and this shouldn't even be a debate.

To date Henderson has:
Made the most passes
Had the most touches
Has made the 2nd most amount of tackles
Covered the second most amount distance

It's his only goal this season, filmed with a calculator it seems. What's your point?

They're both different types of midfielders so it'd be difficult to compare anyway.

Henderson has been outstanding for Liverpool, whilst Pogba is growing into this United team and has only recently found his ideal positon in the setup.

I know stats aren't the be-all and end-all, but here are some for you to mull over

Who's a silly boy then

 

[sullydnl]

The comparison is obviously ridiculous. Some people are overrating Pogba's perforomances this season but even still, Jordan Henderson? C'mon.

 

[TheReligion]

Pogba and Zlatan have more goals than Firmino, Mane and Coutinho.

Fact.

 

[njred]

Pogba and Zlatan have more goals than Firmino, Mane and Coutinho.

Fact.

Except they're playing better than Zlatan and Pogba. Don't you agree?

 

[Carolina Red]

Pogba and Zlatan have more goals than Firmino, Mane and Coutinho.

Fact.

This season?

 

[Kraftwerker]

Why does it feel like a Liverpool forum in the footy section these days?

There are millions of Pool supporters here. That Klopper guy lives here. I don't mind the odd opposition fan but in all honesty I did join RedCafe to chat with fellow Utd supporters in general.

Seems like they can WUM all they want too.

There are some proper shit LFC posters but Klopper is a good poster tbf, and adds a lot to the forum.

Re: Henderson vs Pogba. Another poster had it right, it shouldn't be Henderson vs Pogba (stupid comparison), it should be Henderson vs Herrera.

That's a debate. In a direct match up, Herrera's performance at Anfield was straight up one of the best midfield performances this season. And he's been largely excellent throughout the campaign.

I suppose it boils down to whether you prefer consistently Herrera or consistently Henderson. Safe to say, I know what I prefer but it's all opinions.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Look at the successful take ons stat.

Pogba is better at dribbling than most wingers, that's what makes him so unique. His hold up play and dribbling under pressure sets him apart from other midfielders.

Henderson on the other hand, is a good midfielder albeit limited. He can thrive well and beyond his technical limits in a very good setup(Like Liverpool's).

Henderson is decent but much more limited than Pogba. Pogba brings excitement to the game and I love watching him play. Henderson is just a cog in a machine and unremarkable.

 

[SirHenryPercy]

Yep, good post. The title of the thread is silly, needlessly provocative.

Pogba is one of the most gifted players in the league, Henderson is an effective and very hard working midfielder.

In what way?

For such a gifted player, thus far he doesn't seem to be having a lot of end product?

I wouldn't say Dele Alli is gifted, although he's still a kid really at 20, and he is definitely struggling for form this season, but he has been producing more end product than Pogba.

As for Jordan Henderson, he's not a player I have ever rated highly but fair dues to him this season and indeed last he has been very effective for Liverpool. Their problems apart from Matip lie across the back line and between their posts.

I'm looking for the cracks at Liverpool as I think if we want top 4 then Liverpool is a team that we are going to have to get past. It's that defence that gives me hope but offensively they don't just have a good set-up but also a lot of confidence, which will I think keep carrying them forward. Klopp has done an outstanding job with on paper a fairly ordinary looking group.

 

[Pexbo]

In what way?

For such a gifted player, thus far he doesn't seem to be having a lot of end product?

I wouldn't say Dele Alli is gifted, although he's still a kid really at 20, and he is definitely struggling for form this season, but he has been producing more end product than Pogba.

Dele Alli is a pure AM, he has nothing like the impact on games Pogba has. You can't judge Pogba solely on Goals and Assists and besides our attackers have missed about 10 sitters this season he laid on a plate for them and he's hit the bar about 4 times.

The guy is an absolute phenom, Stevie Wonder could scout him, his gifts are that obvious.

 

[roonster09]

Dele Alli is a pure AM, he has nothing like the impact on games Pogba has. You can't judge Pogba solely on Goals and Assists and besides our attackers have missed about 10 sitters this season he laid on a plate for them and he's hit the bar about 4 times.

The guy is an absolute phenom, Stevie Wonder could scout him, his gifts are that obvious.

It's so obvious who has watched Pogba play and who just looks at goals and assists stats.

 

[Sad Chris]

Ridiculous. A team has to win the title to be given credit ? If we finish higher than you (4th and United 5th) then credit is still due. As far as the defence is concerned you are just repeating the mantra, seems you haven't actually been paying any attention to the facts given in this and the Klopp threads.

From your point of view I agree, because at the moment it's the more realistic goal for you. It's achievable this season. Also it shows how important we are to each other, that we almost enjoy losses of our nemesis as the next best option to winning ourselves.

But from a pure neutral standpoint you should only be pleased that you don't need to worry about us challenging this season. Finishing above us this season (so far) isn't an achievement for any team seriously hoping to win the league. Anything else than winning the league should be a disappointment. I doubt it'll get easier next time around with Guardiola and Mourinho working through their struggles, not to forget a likely European competition.

 

[Peanut Butter]

"My dad's harder than your dad."

It's an argument no fan of that respective team's player will back down from.

Pogba is light years ahead of Henderson in terms of ability mind you.

 

[BorisDeLeFora]

Henderson has been very good this season, because he in fact is a very good player.

Is he as good as Pogba? Obviously not.

Has his form relative to his ability been better than Pogba's this season? Depends on you you rate Henderson at his base line, and how good/bad you think Pogba has been. For what it's worth, as deep lying midfielders go I believe Henderson is probably in the top 5 in the league, and his performances are reflecting that. I'd have him over the likes of Wanyama/Matic/Dier for example, from an ability and form point of view.

But it's a shit debate, mostly because they're performing different roles, partly because Pogba quite blatantly is a more talented player.

 

[Agni]

Bizzare comparison as they are very different players. In terms of ability and role in the team Lallana is more comparable to Pogba.

 

[VanGaalEra]

Don't feck with Hendo guys, or he'll stare at you.

 

[Ballache]

 

[JJ12]

In what way?

For such a gifted player, thus far he doesn't seem to be having a lot of end product?

I wouldn't say Dele Alli is gifted, although he's still a kid really at 20, and he is definitely struggling for form this season, but he has been producing more end product than Pogba.

As for Jordan Henderson, he's not a player I have ever rated highly but fair dues to him this season and indeed last he has been very effective for Liverpool. Their problems apart from Matip lie across the back line and between their posts.

I'm looking for the cracks at Liverpool as I think if we want top 4 then Liverpool is a team that we are going to have to get past. It's that defence that gives me hope but offensively they don't just have a good set-up but also a lot of confidence, which will I think keep carrying them forward. Klopp has done an outstanding job with on paper a fairly ordinary looking group.

You seem to be a stat guy rather than somebody who actually watches football matches.

Watch Pogba and Henderson play and it's obvious one is far more talented than the other.

 

[Samid]

I wouldn't say Dele Alli is gifted, although he's still a kid really at 20, and he is definitely struggling for form this season, but he has been producing more end product than Pogba.

So now we have Dembele, Alli and Hendo la' all better than Pogba?

What were the world XI people thinking, they don't watch the PL?

Even an out of form Alli is producing more than Pogba. We were robbed by Juve

 

[Peanut Butter]

There are some proper shit LFC posters but Klopper is a good poster tbf, and adds a lot to the forum.

Re: Henderson vs Pogba. Another poster had it right, it shouldn't be Henderson vs Pogba (stupid comparison), it should be Henderson vs Herrera.

That's a debate. In a direct match up, Herrera's performance at Anfield was straight up one of the best midfield performances this season. And he's been largely excellent throughout the campaign.

I suppose it boils down to whether you prefer consistently Herrera or consistently Henderson. Safe to say, I know what I prefer but it's all opinions.

Aye I was grumpy last night, @Klopper76 seems like a good lad and an intelligent poster.

Like I said, I appreciate oppo supporters. I suppose I should post more in the Utd section for more discussion with fellow reds.

Merry Xmas oppo fans, hope you all have a great festive season and that your team drops points!

 

[Hammerfell]

That's a big picture.

 

[TheReligion]

Except they're playing better than Zlatan and Pogba. Don't you agree?

I thought it's all about the stats though?

How do you define playing better?

 

[Steven Seagull]

Henderson can only play the way he's facing. Shit player

 

[giorno]

Except they're playing better than Zlatan and Pogba. Don't you agree?

No

 

[Moby]

Except they're playing better than Zlatan and Pogba. Don't you agree?

The Everton - Liverpool game was a nice cure for insomnia. Awful football.

 

[Dumbstar]

No

So its not Firmino, Coutinho and Lallana (or Mane) that are playing better than Zlatan/Pogba. Herrera had THAT game at Anfield so is obviously untouchable compared to our players. Our defence, as has already been well documented, is a Christmas cracker joke. And Karius has been detected.

How the f*ck are we going to catch Man Utd up this season?

 

[giorno]

So its not Firmino, Coutinho and Lallana (or Mane) that are playing better than Zlatan/Pogba. Herrera had THAT game at Anfield so is obviously untouchable compared to our players. Our defence, as has already been well documented, is a Christmas cracker joke. And Karius has been detected.

How the f*ck are we going to catch Man Utd up this season?

You've been playing better as a whole since the beginning of the season, but let's not pretend you're playing better than united right now. Zlatan and pogba individually haven't been worse than coutinho, mané and firmino.

 

[roonster09]

So its not Firmino, Coutinho and Lallana (or Mane) that are playing better than Zlatan/Pogba. Herrera had THAT game at Anfield so is obviously untouchable compared to our players. Our defence, as has already been well documented, is a Christmas cracker joke. And Karius has been detected.

How the f*ck are we going to catch Man Utd up this season?

Yeah team that is higher in league table means all their players are better. That logic means Cleverley was the best midfielder one season, Alonso is the best LB in the league this season.

 

[Dumbstar]

Yeah team that is higher in league table means all their players are better. That logic means Cleverley was the best midfielder one season, Alonso is the best LB in the league this season.

No, I'm just trying to work out what it is that has put us that far high up in the table. Must be something right? As we are ruling out the players, are you saying we have a better manager?

 

[roonster09]

No, I'm just trying to work out what it is that has put us that far high up in the table. Must be something right? As we are ruling out the players, are you saying we have a better manager?

You think southampton and few other clubs had better players than Chelsea last season or Leicester had the best players?

 

[giorno]

No, I'm just trying to work out what it is that has put us that far high up in the table. Must be something right? As we are ruling out the players, are you saying we have a better manager?

For one thing, football's a team sport. The right combination of good players can be better than the wrong combination of great players over the course of a 38-games season. For another, your manager had your team figured out since July, which meant you were as good as you could be from the beginning. Other teams struggled to find the right set up. Finally, your manager is really good

 

[AXVnee7]

Yeah team that is higher in league table means all their players are better. That logic means Cleverley was the best midfielder one season, Alonso is the best LB in the league this season.

Yeah exactly, the table doesn't always indicate the best squad but usually does the better team.

Did Liverpool fans consider their squad inferior to West Ham last season?

 

[VorZakone]

Did anyone literally say that Henderson is better than Pogba?

 

[devil in me]

In what way?

For such a gifted player, thus far he doesn't seem to be having a lot of end product?

I wouldn't say Dele Alli is gifted, although he's still a kid really at 20, and he is definitely struggling for form this season, but he has been producing more end product than Pogba.

Really? I think Alli is a class act, but I can't see how anyone can say he is producing more end product than Pogba.