Premier League Gameweek 17 | Stop flogging a dead thread - Damien

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EyeInTheSky

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Except they're playing better than Zlatan and Pogba. Don't you agree?
What does that even mean :wenger:

Pogba and Zlatan are below their best yet they have scored and assisted more goal between them then your front 3. Imagine when they start firing with Mikhi coming back into things.

I think we are in a good place when they have struggled a bit this season yet outscored the 3 players you think are "playing better" than them.
 

Jed I. Knight

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In what way?

For such a gifted player, thus far he doesn't seem to be having a lot of end product?

I wouldn't say Dele Alli is gifted, although he's still a kid really at 20, and he is definitely struggling for form this season, but he has been producing more end product than Pogba.
Still harping on about this? :lol: And going from the fact that you're still completely in the dark regarding Pogba, I can only assume that you still haven't actually watched him this season, as per your own statement in the Spurs thread a couple of weeks back? I understand that Glaston has done well in training his little army!
 

podurban2

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Still harping on about this? :lol: And going from the fact that you're still completely in the dark regarding Pogba, I can only assume that you still haven't actually watched him this season, as per your own statement in the Spurs thread a couple of weeks back? I understand that Glaston has done well in training his little army!
His spirit lives in this thread.
 

LFC-Fans

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Henderson is not better than Pogba technically.

BUT. He has had better games this season so far
 

PickledRed

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Yeah team that is higher in league table means all their players are better. That logic means Cleverley was the best midfielder one season, Alonso is the best LB in the league this season.
These are straw men examples. If Henderson was as peripheral as Cleverley in United's team then the comparison would hold water. In reality, Henderson has been extremely important at winning the ball, keeping the ball and providing a platform at the base of midfield. It's a lot of heavy lifting, so less eye-catching.

He's been excellent at times and consistent since August. Accepting this doesn't mean Pogba is being accused of being a lesser player - although some bed wetters have wilfully jumped to this conclusion and rejoiced in 'deluded Liverpool fans'.

However, the truth is that Henderson (in an entirely different role and position) has put in more regular reliable performances than Pogba since August. Heck, there was a premature thread on here about Pogba disappointing that had hundreds of posts, wasn't there? 'Elephant in the room...' A very quick flick through his thread displays the disquiet about his performances over autumn - check this out: https://www.redcafe.net/threads/paul-pogba-2016-17-performances.420541/page-73

His recent improvement appears to have eliminated the notion that he's ever been under-par since the start.

Does all this make Henderson a better football player with more talent? No.

Does that mean Henderson is a very good midfielder at home and settled in a team with an established approach with a manager who has used him very well all season? Yes.

Does this mean that Henderson will necessarily have a better season than Pogba come May? No.
 

roonster09

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These are straw men examples. If Henderson was as peripheral as Cleverley in United's team then the comparison would hold water. In reality, Henderson has been extremely important at winning the ball, keeping the ball and providing a platform at the base of midfield. It's a lot of heavy lifting, so less eye-catching.

He's been excellent at times and consistent since August. Accepting this doesn't mean Pogba is being accused of being a lesser player - although some bed wetters have wilfully jumped to this conclusion and rejoiced in 'deluded Liverpool fans'.

However, the truth is that Henderson (in an entirely different role and position) has put in more regular reliable performances than Pogba since August. Heck, there was a premature thread on here about Pogba disappointing that had hundreds of posts, wasn't there? 'Elephant in the room...' A very quick flick through his thread displays the disquiet about his performances over autumn - check this out: https://www.redcafe.net/threads/paul-pogba-2016-17-performances.420541/page-73

His recent improvement appears to have eliminated the notion that he's ever been under-par since the start.

Does all this make Henderson a better football player with more talent? No.

Does that mean Henderson is a very good midfielder at home and settled in a team with an established approach with a manager who has used him very well all season? Yes.

Does this mean that Henderson will necessarily have a better season than Pogba come May? No.
There are many more examples, like Evra played 34 games when we won the league and he wasn't better than any LB in the league, similarly Evans played 28 games when we were 2nd, that doesn't mean he was better than all CBs bar City's. Using league table to prove Played X played better than Y is straw man argument.

One or two knee jerk thread doesn't prove your point. It's common here for every ManUtd player. Ibra is third highest goal scorer in the league and we have negative threads about him too. Pogba was underwhelming for the record transfer but he was good in most games than not. If Pogba played like Henderson then people would have said it's just average performance because of expectations. People expect goal or assists (match winning performance) every game and that's the reason for "elephant thread".

Is Henderson good midfielder? Yes
Is is having good season? For his level he is having good season.
 

PickledRed

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There are many more examples, like Evra played 34 games when we won the league and he wasn't better than any LB in the league, similarly Evans played 28 games when we were 2nd, that doesn't mean he was better than all CBs bar City's. Using league table to prove Played X played better than Y is straw man argument.

One or two knee jerk thread doesn't prove your point. It's common here for every ManUtd player. Ibra is third highest goal scorer in the league and we have negative threads about him too. Pogba was underwhelming for the record transfer but he was good in most games than not. If Pogba played like Henderson then people would have said it's just average performance because of expectations. People expect goal or assists (match winning performance) every game and that's the reason for "elephant thread".

Is Henderson good midfielder? Yes
Is is having good season? For his level he is having good season.
This doesn't really contend with my point which is that Henderson has been more consistent than Pogba so far this season. He really has, which is why I'm confused that United fans can't give way on this particular narrow point. It's really not the same as suggesting Henderson is better. Nobody has said as such.

He hasn't been average, he's been very good (based on anyone's level in his role as a DM) and integral to Liverpool's strong form and key to the current second placing - that's why using the league table in this particular instance isn't as daft as is being perceived.

Anyway, it's not necessarily right of me to expect acquiescence on this point on this forum so maybe I will drop it...from now on.
 

roonster09

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This doesn't really contend with my point which is that Henderson has been more consistent than Pogba so far this season. He really has, which is why I'm confused that United fans can't give way on this particular narrow point. It's really not the same as suggesting Henderson is better. Nobody has said as such.

He hasn't been average, he's been very good (based on anyone's level in his role as a DM) and integral to Liverpool's strong form and key to the current second placing - that's why using the league table in this particular instance isn't as daft as is being perceived.

Anyway, it's not necessarily right of me to expect acquiescence on this point on this forum so maybe I will drop it...from now on.
Like I said Henderson is good for his level, if Pogba played like Henderson then it wouldn't have been counted as good as the expectations are very different. It's not something I expect a Liverpool fan to agree though.
 

TheReligion

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Liverpool fans would rather have Henderson than Pogba..

And with that ambition they wonder why they haven't won a league title in 26 years.

:lol:
 

Rafateria

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......Pogba's recent improvement appears to have eliminated the notion that he's ever been under-par since the start.
The average rating given to Pogba by RedCafe posters (therefore naturally United fanatics) since the start of the season is ... 6.2. One would assume that is composed of much higher recent ratings and much lower ratings from early season.
 

Rafateria

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Liverpool fans would rather have Henderson than Pogba..

And with that ambition they wonder why they haven't won a league title in 26 years.

:lol:
Actually I'd rather have Henderson right where he is and have Pogba in front of him contributing, as he does for United, to the attack.
 

PickledRed

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Liverpool fans would rather have Henderson than Pogba..

And with that ambition they wonder why they haven't won a league title in 26 years.

:lol:
Just on this - is there a quote to corroborate your statement?
 

RobinLFC

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Liverpool fans would rather have Henderson than Pogba..

And with that ambition they wonder why they haven't won a league title in 26 years.

:lol:
You really live in your own little world, don't you? Literally no one has said that but please, continue to make up your own facts.
 

TheReligion

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LungiDevil

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This doesn't really contend with my point which is that Henderson has been more consistent than Pogba so far this season. He really has, which is why I'm confused that United fans can't give way on this particular narrow point. It's really not the same as suggesting Henderson is better. Nobody has said as such.

He hasn't been average, he's been very good (based on anyone's level in his role as a DM) and integral to Liverpool's strong form and key to the current second placing - that's why using the league table in this particular instance isn't as daft as is being perceived.

Anyway, it's not necessarily right of me to expect acquiescence on this point on this forum so maybe I will drop it...from now on.
"Henderson has been more consistent than Pogba". While this statement is correct, I wouldn't replace the word consistent with effective.

Pogba has brought a new dimension to the United midfield (not future potential, just these 20 games), that few if any in the league would have been able to contribute. There are so many aspects (that I am not sure stats are capturing) that Pogba is miles ahead of Henderson this season. Physicality, ball retention in tight spaces, flair, ability to beat a man and as a goal scoring threat are just a few of them. Reducing Pogba's play to touches, passes and forward passes is how you can consistently demonstrate that you've not watched him play.

You are underrating your forwards' contribution by saying his role as a DM is key to Liverpool's strong form and current position. Admittedly, I haven't watch all games, but isn't your whole approach scoring more than conceding? If anything your DM along with the Defense is culpable for the number of goals conceded. The answer to this question should tell me all I need: Do you think adding Henderson to United's midfield (in the place of anyone actually), would have made us any better? Now, what if we replace Martial and Rashford/Mata (pre Mkhi times) with Coutinho and Mane?

I suspect Henderson is only incidental to your current success, not integral or instrumental.

United's midfield is one of the best in the league currently because Carrick, Herrera and Pogba are having an effective partnership. The player Henderson is most similar to is Herrera (from the limited Liv games I have watched). You replace Carrick/Pogba with Henderson and the midfield will not be as potent. Based on the current season's performance, Henderson may shade it ahead of Herrera.
 

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Paul Pogba is obviously a vastly superior footballer to Henderson. It's not even a valid argument. Henderson - this season anyway - has found another gear playing for Klopp (as have one or two others). If he can keep to his current standard then we Liverpool fans will be more than happy. If Pogba lives up to his potential though he'll comfortably be in the world-class bracket.
 

Fridge chutney

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Really? I think Alli is a class act, but I can't see how anyone can say he is producing more end product than Pogba.
Additionally, Pogba did not make the FIFA world 11 for his end product.

We can't win, get laughed at for letting go one of the best midfielders in the world for free, and get laughed at for buying this suddenly overrated player back!
 

Mciahel Goodman

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I've always been of the opinion that Henderson was a bit crap. I'm not ready to change that opinion just yet, but he's having a very good season so far (Lallana too).
 

Prometheus

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We can't win, get laughed at for letting go one of the best midfielders in the world for free, and get laughed at for buying this suddenly overrated player back!
The laughter is more about buying him back for 125 times what you sold him for.
 

Manny

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Did anyone literally say that Henderson is better than Pogba?
I've been following the thread and no one actually said that. A couple of Liverpool fans have said Henderson has performed better than Pogba so far this season. That's about it.
 

The United Irishman

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Henderson is not better than Pogba technically.

BUT. He has had better games this season so far
Even in Pogba's poorest games he's still done more than Henderson at his very best, everyone's just blinded by Pogba's price tag, thus expecting much more from him.
 

njred

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I thought it's all about the stats though?

How do you define playing better?
By what I see, and by what you see. Those 3 have been better than Zlatan and Pogba. Pogba hasn't lived up to his billing, Zlatan is Zlatan.
I'm sure 99% of neutrals agree too. As a team this season LFC is better than united, mainly because of style of play and the Mgr.
 

TheReligion

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By what I see, and by what you see. Those 3 have been better than Zlatan and Pogba. Pogba hasn't lived up to his billing, Zlatan is Zlatan.
I'm sure 99% of neutrals agree too. As a team this season LFC is better than united, mainly because of style of play and the Mgr.
Pogba and Zlatan have more goals than Firmino , Mane and Coutinho..
 

giorno

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Hendo had fewer average/bad games than pogba. Pogba had better games than hendo. If liverpool had pogba and zlatan, they'd win the league
 

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Hendo had fewer average/bad games than pogba. Pogba had better games than hendo. If liverpool had pogba and zlatan, they'd win the league
Klopp would not be able to play gegenpressen with those two in the first team together. Not sure what tactics, if any other, he would employ. So that's all conjecture.
 

giorno

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Klopp would not be able to play gegenpressen with those two in the first team together. Not sure what tactics, if any other, he would employ. So that's all conjecture.
He would too. Pogba and Zlatan are physical freaks. They'd be great in Klopp's system
 

njred

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Pogba and Zlatan have more goals than Firmino , Mane and Coutinho..
Pogba and Zlatan have more goals than Firmino , Mane and Coutinho..
Really? Premier League-really? I don't think so. 11 for Zlatan -how many assists?.None. 3 goals (three)for Pogba? How many assists.Two. A big disappointment.
Coutinho has what , 5 goals,5 assists. Mane -8 goals,4 assists. Firminio 5 goals 3 assists.
I guess you're counting all competitions that united and Liverpool are in? Then it's close, just not in the Premier League.
 

njred

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He would too. Pogba and Zlatan are physical freaks. They'd be great in Klopp's system
Zlatan wouldn't fit at all. Great scorer, but has no assists - not one in the league. He wouldn't keep up in Klopp's system.
 

Dumbstar

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He would too. Pogba and Zlatan are physical freaks. They'd be great in Klopp's system
Zlatan would be good from the bench like a fitter/better Sturridge but no way is he able to run like Firminho up top. That is what Klopp's system demands. Goals are then just a happy by product of that work.

Pogba would instantly replace Wijnaldum I agree.
 

giorno

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You guys are seriously underestimating the Zlatan's energy. He's probably still got enough in the tank for gegenpressing. As for his having no assists, he's about the only guy consistently finding the net for united. Who should he assist? Put him on a team like liverpool and he'd have 8 goals and 12 assists by now
 

TheReligion

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Really? Premier League-really? I don't think so. 11 for Zlatan -how many assists?.None. 3 goals (three)for Pogba? How many assists.Two. A big disappointment.
Coutinho has what , 5 goals,5 assists. Mane -8 goals,4 assists. Firminio 5 goals 3 assists.
I guess you're counting all competitions that united and Liverpool are in? Then it's close, just not in the Premier League.
Let's keep it simple. This season. Pogba and Zlatan have more goals than Firmino, Mane and Coutinho. Fact.
 

Rafateria

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Let's keep it simple. This season. Pogba and Zlatan have more goals than Firmino, Mane and Coutinho. Fact.
Simple suits your rhetoric but not the pertinent facts because Z&P have been playing in Europe too, whilst Klopp often rested FMC for cup matches and all have been out injured at one time or another. How on earth do you think that we have scored nearly double your number of goals in the PL .. Karius ?
 
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