Not that confusing. To just forget previous atrocities and act like they didn't exist is disrespectful to those who went through it and continue to go through it. As well as opening ourselves up to making the same mistakes again.
Racism incident in PSG v Istanbul match
- Thread starter Theafonis
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It wasnt demba ba he was talking about, he was the one who reacted to it
Bizarre
I'll admit my world probably looks a bit diffrent - you being so high upon the pillar of moral righteousness - but a touch of perspective and nuance could go a long way here.
When asked to pick out an object from amongst other objects, using a descriptive word is helpful - nay - imperative. Especially when time is of the essence.
In this case, Demba Ba presumably heard the Romanian word and assumed - which is fine - that it was the far more offensive English word.
Had the official said 'negro' in English, he should be fired on the spot. Because of the history you mention. Demba Ba was rightly offended believing this to be the case.
However, at this stage that pesky 'nuance' bit comes in: the official did not do that.
Could the official have tried to come up with other terms to use? Of course. Is him using the most obvious one an indication of his desire to invoke three hundred years of systemic abuse based on skin color? No.
If we judge all acts without context or nuance, we might as well give up now.
Turkey is one of the most racist countries out there. It's so ironic to see this situation and reaction.
Probably because like the reaction of Demba Ba and the assistant is something extremely close to home and painful. You have had a number of people in the thread explain many times but chose not to read them and reiterate the same harmful conversation which has already been had. Then when I answered you then act like you didn't read what I had just written before. At some point we get tired of educating and re educating again and again. Apologies if it came off aggressive but you can probably understand why that might happen.
The only reason they react like this is because they thought he said the N word. That’s what triggers the reaction not being called black. I understand that would cause a reaction but once you see the intention and context there’s no compassion needed, just a misunderstanding.
Not a bad point to bring up. Perhaps the emotions were running higher because in Turkey there's a very real chance of a racial chant being heard on a football pitch. I can certainly understand higher sensitivity from the staff/players towards any perceived racial remarks if that's the reality they live in.
The new audio surfacing with someone in the Istanbul bench supposedly calling the refs slurs needs seems to be being investigated as well. That would probably explain why UEFA is slow to reacting. Trial by Twitter is rarely a good idea and waiting for all the facts is the right way to go.
What has that got to do what what I said? Have you even seen what my thoughts were on the actual situation? All I have done is reply to the people who keep saying that saying "white guy" and "black guy" are the same.
In my opinion the official should of done better and UEFA should do better to train their coaches. Do I think he meant it to be racist ? No he thought it'd be the easiest way to describe him.
Did he use it because its become a culture norm in a world of systematic oppression? Yes
Do I want to see people describe us as more than just "the black guy" in the future? Yeah I pray for the day people who meet to don't just immediately say "your different from the other black guys I know" or "you dress differently to other black guys" or "you talk differently from the other black guys" or "you treat people better than the other blacks" etc etc
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Oh. Whoosh. Not seen any of his films. ApologiesBorat always uses the word gypsy in a derogatory manner but always thinks it's totally normal. It was a joke mate
I simply expanded what you insinuated. Probably sounded stupid, due to the stupidity of the original comment.
Oh. Whoosh. Not seen any of his films. Apologies
Yeah of course you did.
Read my post above this you'll probably get a little bit of understanding about how referring to someone as "the black guy" can be damaging based on the historical stereotypical context.
Do you have any source to back up that claim because that's not what the conversations on film insinuate so you must have something right?
In general, yes, it's nonsense. But we're not talking in general. We're talking about the referees of an international football game. If they haven't had race sensitivity training from UEFA that covers this sort of thing, then UEFA are idiots; and if they have and have ignored it, then they're the idiots (or racists, depending on the intent).
I mean, what if Romanian had the n-word and it means blue, and they'd be using it point someone out ('the guy with the blue shoes'). They wouldn't be doing anything wrong, but someone overhearing it in this same context would surely get the wrong impression. Surely UEFA has training in place to help avoid those situations.
I think that’s far more likely than getting outraged by being described as black.
While I don't think it's explicitly racist to identify someone by their race, it's not very professional, and at the worst quite insensitive. It can sound very innocuous to someone that hasn't experienced a lifetime of racism of some degree, but I think it's completely ok for a black person to want someone to not identify them as 'the black one', even in a group of white people(for example). I also think black players playing for Turkish teams(probably stands true for most leagues unfortunately) would be more sensitive to any mention of their skin colour, given the abuse they seem to receive on a semi-regular basis.
All in all, maybe Ba misunderstood what the official was saying in the first place(Negro vs Negru) and it escalated from there, but the point still stands, the official should have tried to identify the assistant manager in a better way, and it's ok for black people to not want to be identified in that way. If I put myself in that situation, the instinctive part of my brain would want to say 'the black guy', if it was the easiest way of identifying him, but the more sensible part of it would tell me that it is not appropriate to actually say that.
All in all, maybe Ba misunderstood what the official was saying in the first place(Negro vs Negru) and it escalated from there, but the point still stands, the official should have tried to identify the assistant manager in a better way, and it's ok for black people to not want to be identified in that way. If I put myself in that situation, the instinctive part of my brain would want to say 'the black guy', if it was the easiest way of identifying him, but the more sensible part of it would tell me that it is not appropriate to actually say that.
It most obviously was: "You would never say 'that white man', you would say 'that man'. So why do you say 'that black man' when you mean a black man", I think this is the shortest and most obvious explanation of racism I have ever heard, and I compliment Mr Ba!
Demba Ba specifically talks about the issue with just calling him the "black guy". The video shows him talking to the ref about that specific issue
But that's not even correct, how many people regardless of their "race" would say "that white guy" when he was easy to single out among people of other "races"? Clearly many. Not saying this is correct but it would obviously happen.
That does only come after the use of the word negru, everyone getting angry about that, and presumably when it was being explained to him that no harm was intended.
We don't know that he'd have voiced the same objection if it hadn't have gone down like that and if the official had used the English word for black instead to begin with. He may still have done, not saying he wouldn't have but we can't know. In a series of events everything is interlinked/intertwined.
Not saying that makes what Ba said invalid, but there are people saying the use of the word negru had nothing to do with it when they don't know that.
I can say with 100% certainty I’ve said more than once in my life “the white guy” seems mad that needs to be questioned.
Bulgaria is one of the most racist countries out there. It's so ironic to see this response and reaction.
Apparently the Romanian officials received the racial abuse first. Someone in the background called Romanian is ''gipsy''.
Edit: Never mind, someone in the background said: ''In my country Romanian are gypsy. But I can't say gypsy''. So it wasn't a racial abuse.
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Edit: Never mind, someone in the background said: ''In my country Romanian are gypsy. But I can't say gypsy''. So it wasn't a racial abuse.
Aside from the discussion whether that is acceptable/offensive, I really don't understand why you make this claim. It is quite obviously not true.
Okay, on which planet do you live?
It’s not true though. Put a white man in the middle of a crowd of black men (all wearing the same clothes) and you’d look like an absolute idiot if you tried to single him out, verbally, without mentioning the colour of his skin.
I am not so sure. If a white man was sitting among loads of black men, I think someone might say the white man as well.
Not that I think it is the right way to go about things. But I think that is very much a possibility.
A planet on which I expect a thoughtful response and not a snarky remark. I find it very hard to believe that you wouldn't call the only white person among a group of non-white people "the white guy/girl" not knowing their name. I certainly would and it would sound ridiculous if I started referrring to his or her attire or something instead. Whereas in the reverse situation some people might refrain from saying "the black guy" even though their instincts might tell them so as @Conor said above.
But thats all if buts and maybes clearly it affected Demba Ba he talked about the specific issue with it and many on here have aswell. If someone in my work just referred to me as the black guy I'd be absolutely fuming (this has happened during a presentation a top property developer as I was presenting a product one of the c level executives said "I wanted to ask a question to the black one" at which point I asked to be excused and made an official complaint to the CEO who did absolutely nothing ) Its not nice really and unfortunately its a phrase thats been used alot for me in my life and not with any positivity behind it except to say "you are better than the other black guys" which is totally messed up.
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Have you never heard anyone called Gringo?
IMO calling someone N word is offensive, but "the black guy" is just ignorant and labelling based on ethnicity, but I don't think it's scandalous. It's the language and how that word sounds in Romanian language that makes this situation much worse.
At least someone's using a brain
You can guess what happened on social media. He was attacked for saying his opinion
You can guess what happened on social media. He was attacked for saying his opinion
In front of the person (so that she/he actually hears it)? Never.
Yeah, I think I agree with this. I don’t think what he did was particularly out of order and I don’t think he should be accused of being racist but - given the context of an already inflamed situation - it might have been best avoiding mentioning his skin colour altogether. I certainly think I would have, if I was in his situation.
I just keep coming back to how crazy it is that the first time a really important match gets called off over alleged racism it’s such a trivial incident. To me, that’s a pity, when we think of all the previous incidents of genuinely malignant and obvious racism where games were allowed to go to their conclusion, with black players forced to ignore vile abuse aimed in their direction.
I guess it’s good that it keeps this stuff being talked about but it also feeds the over-sensitive, exaggerating minor issues narrative which actual racists like to use to shout down movements like BLM.
100% bang on. Everything should be equal for all races and cherry picking what's ok and what's not ok for certain races is just dumb and needs to be addressed. On the news and TV I hear people referred to as black all the time but that's not racist but identifying someone for being black is being racist now?
Society has seriously gone mad.
Either it's ok to address someone by the colour of their skin or it isn't. Can't have it both ways.
I absolutely agree with Micah on this. As commendable as it was for both teams to show solidarity and walk off together I think they've maybe picked the wrong hill to die on here. Like he said "Ignorant? probably. Racist? Probably not."
I think it's been lost in translation with the fact the Romanian word for black sounds fairly similar to the n-word. Because the controversy caused by it just seems a bit over the top.
Yeah the guy is bang on but the people who go through it arent......... Ok I'll move on