Racism incident in PSG v Istanbul match

[JPRouve]

Didn't get that, sorry. Could you rephrase?

What you said is true when you have time to think, it applies for example to cases where you think about formally complain about something. It doesn't really apply to the reaction you will have on the spot when the incident happened or is happening, in that case you don't think much and either confront the problem maker or try to avoid the problem/hide.

 

[Synco]

What you said is true when you have time to think, it applies for example to cases where you think about formally complain about something. It doesn't really apply to the reaction you will have on the spot when the incident happened or is happening, in that case you don't think much and either confront the problem maker or try to avoid the problem/hide.

Seems like a misunderstanding. I wasn't talking about the person who gets subjected to prejudice or abuse. I meant the counter-reactions after such cases reach the public, dismissing critics of racism (and comparable things) as hypocritical, dishonest, etc. Like the post you and OL29 quoted.

 

[JPRouve]

Seems like a misunderstanding. I wasn't talking about the person who gets subjected to prejudice or abuse. I meant the counter-reactions after such cases reach the public, dismissing critics of racism (and comparable things) as hypocritical, dishonest, etc. Like the post you and OL29 quoted.

I see, I misunderstood the context of your post.

 

[NotThatSoph]

I didn't want to respond initially but since you did. There is also the very obvious and common fact that generally people victim of discrimination won't react in public because they don't want to make a scene and be the center of attention or perceived as a victim, it doesn't mean that they aren't hurt. Other times they may react publicly.

Expecting people to have a robotic reaction to something that happens to them shows how much people have zero empathy.

It's also interesting that Webo is getting called out for having double standards because he's calling out this instance and not other instances, when he's not the one who brought this issue to the public. Even if it was Webo and not Demba Ba who did calling it a double standard is pretty messed up, but it wasn't even Webo.

 

[mancan92]

Interested to know if the last two examples are a problem if you replace the word black with the word white?

How many times have people explained the difference in this thread yet people still keep sprouting the same crap. I really wish the mods did more about this nonsense in these threads. The cafe is not the place for these discussions no one wants to learn anything

 

[mancan92]

If he is the one black guy in eyesight and everyone else is white, it shouldn't be a problem!

It should be because of the clear history of racial issues attached to using the word in that context.

 

[Stacks]

It should be because of the clear history of racial issues attached to using the word in that context.

What word? Black guy/person/man? What was actually said?

 

[mancan92]

What word? Black guy/person/man? What was actually said?

Yes the historical connatations of the describing someone as black as their main identity and nothing else doesn't just have huge negative stereotypical things attached to it (aggressive , thug, poor, uncivilised etc) but also was the one description of people that caused millions to be victimised and killed over the last few hundreds years. Just calling someone black as their main identitifier isn't just calling them black its all of the issues attached to the use of it up until this day.

 

[Stacks]

Yes the historical connatations of the describing someone as black as their main identity and nothing else doesn't just have huge negative stereotypical things attached to it (aggressive , thug, poor, uncivilised etc) but also was the one description of people that caused millions to be victimised and killed over the last few hundreds years. Just calling someone black as their main identitifier isn't just calling them black its all of the issues attached to the use of it up until this day.

I respectfully disagree. If he doesn't know who he is and that is the quick easy identifier I see no issue. Black isn't a taboo. White folk are often told to be sensitive and aware of how they speak around us (black people) so we are fine with being identified as black surely? Black lives matter refers to black people as their main identity and we have all sorts of other examples. I was listening to Malcolm X videos and he was doing it as it can also be empowering. I feel it's more individual insecurities. If someone describes me as a black guy I would never think of the things you listed because I am just a regular dude. Some people may think these things about me but that's their business

 

[mancan92]

I respectfully disagree. If he doesn't know who he is and that is the quick easy identifier I see no issue. Black isn't a taboo. White folk are often told to be sensitive and aware of how they speak around us (black people) so we are fine with being identified as black surely? Black lives matter refers to black people as their main identity and we have all sorts of other examples. I was listening to Malcolm X videos and he was doing it as it can also be empowering. I feel it's more individual insecurities. If someone describes me as a black guy I would never think of the things you listed because I am just a regular dude. Some people may think these things about me but that's their business

What are you talking about? It's not about insecurities. This is clear historical fact. It's not imaginary to this very day people all over the world use and continue to use describing someone as black in a negative way. Just because you personally take it on the chin doesn't mean that others don't constantly get affected hugely negatively. Even today I met a friend of a friend and he said to me "wow I didn't except you to be so well mannered blacks aren't normally like that." that's in London again that may not affect you but it has hugely affected me and what I thought about black people and honestly it caused huge identity psychological issues for me. So if you are black and you personally are OK with it fine. But your parents and grandparents and their parents generations and generations percuted and killed whilst being called as nothing else but black no other description except that one feature.

 

[RooneyLegend]

Just in theory, if the match was in Africa and most of the players were black, and there was one white player - if the white player is called "the white one", would that be considered racist?

Nope

 

[Cheimoon]

There are two issues here. One is referring to someone using the color of their skin while talking to a third party, even if you are using completely acceptable language (Demba Ba's complaint). I'd say Ba is right in point of principle, the complaint is valid, if a bit academic. You can obviously avoid it by walking up to the person and pointing your finger at them (even though I was brought up to think it's rude to point your finger at people).

Totally agree. And I agree it's messy with descriptors. I mean, skin colour is a pretty obvious feature of someone's appearance. If everyone is wearing a white coat and one person a black coat, you'd obviously use that, too, to identify them. And so I can understand that people think that it's nonsense that you can't say 'who? the black guy' - including black people. But many black people do dislike it (and other people in different contexts), and there's the history of racism to add it's weight to things; so I prefer to avoid using skin colour to refer to people. But I also agree with you that alternative ways to identify someone can become awkward as well.

I'll also add here, btw, that I appreciate the detailed response. I find this complicated subject matter and I'm honestly interested to learn and open to changing my mind. (I was reading an article today arguing how insane extreme wokeness is. I'm nowhere near that particular attitude, but maybe some of the criticism applies to me as well anyway.) So I appreciate discussion and being challenged; but there's nothing interesting in simply being called batshit crazy.

The second issue is using a word that might sound like an offensive word in another language. Given the sheer linguistic variance, that's potentially any word , which would then mean you're better off not speaking at all. But never minding that practical problem, just as a principle, from a normative point of view, it would be a validation of one's ignorance to the detriment of the innocent party. How about we explain to people that they shouldn't take offense before they understand what's being uttered in another language? Seems like the most basic and commonsensical principle to abide by. Surely a better way to go about things than saying "you know what, I don't know if you've said anything wrong or not and I don't even speak your language, but why don't you go and re-arrange your whole language, for my benefit, so we can avoid this error on my part?" It's just fatuous in the extreme.

I agree, it would make no sense in a general context. If the n-word meant 'socks' in Basque, then that's just too bad. Surely no-one would expect the Basques to change or mind their language!

But I'm only talking about referees at international matches. Even then, though, you're right that there are so many words that might give offense in so many languages; it'd be a never-ending crusade to try and identify (and then avoid!) all of it.

On the other hand, football matches aren't a great discussion venue. In the heat of the moment, there usually isn't the opportunity to calmly explain the linguistic issue that's happening. (See Wednesday's match.) So I'm thinking that maybe effort from UEFA would be useful to sensitive refs to the words (sounds) and speech habits (referring to someone as 'that black man') most likely to give offense. Thinking about it now, I'm not sure that would even include 'negro' for the former - but a Basque ref would probably have an easier job if he would not talk about socks in my made-up version of Basque. And the latter category (speech habits; there's probably a better term) would include saying something like 'that black guy'.

Still doesn't make sense? What do you think?

Then there's actually a third issue over whether you should avoid synophones only if they sound bad in a very specific language, which quite rightly prompts complaints over cultural imperialism. I'm an anglophile myself, and I don't mind English in the slightest. I'm okay if it's lingua franca out of convenience, but to make an explicit normative demand for other cultures to conform to it (contextually, not just as a tool of communication) is egregious anglocentric hubris.

I use English a lot in my life, but I'm neither an anglophone nor an Anglophile; it's just another language to me. In any case, I totally agree that the sounds and conventions and connotations of English can't become norms to judge other languages by. Each language stands alone and words have their own meanings, history, and connotations. So I'm good with labelling that batshit crazy here.

 

[cheeky_backheel]

I respectfully disagree. If he doesn't know who he is and that is the quick easy identifier I see no issue. Black isn't a taboo. White folk are often told to be sensitive and aware of how they speak around us (black people) so we are fine with being identified as black surely? Black lives matter refers to black people as their main identity and we have all sorts of other examples. I was listening to Malcolm X videos and he was doing it as it can also be empowering. I feel it's more individual insecurities. If someone describes me as a black guy I would never think of the things you listed because I am just a regular dude. Some people may think these things about me but that's their business

A (similarly easy) more appropriate and accurate identifier would have been to describe Webo's physical position (e.g. 3rd from the left). Which would likely have been the case if everyone was of the same skin color. The fact that he was the only black guy on the bench is not an excuse to refer to him using a phrase that is considered derogratory and/or racist.This does not mean that the 4th offical is a racist (as that would require intent), but simply that the phrase he used was racist and inappropriate.

As to people's thinking being their business, I dont think you would feel so indifferent when said thinking denies you opportunities you would have otherwise gotten on the merit, or worse, if it makes a law enforcement use deadly force against you. When people in position of authority have prejudicial thoughts, the consequence could be very dire.

 

[JPRouve]

I respectfully disagree. If he doesn't know who he is and that is the quick easy identifier I see no issue. Black isn't a taboo. White folk are often told to be sensitive and aware of how they speak around us (black people) so we are fine with being identified as black surely? Black lives matter refers to black people as their main identity and we have all sorts of other examples. I was listening to Malcolm X videos and he was doing it as it can also be empowering. I feel it's more individual insecurities. If someone describes me as a black guy I would never think of the things you listed because I am just a regular dude. Some people may think these things about me but that's their business

It's really for an other thread but you are somehow taking BLM out of context and edulcorating what Malcolm X said and thought by essentially mixing Malcom X observation and MLK approach. Malcolm X wasn't the 'that's their business" kind of guy.

 

[OL29]

It's really for an other thread but you are somehow taking BLM out of context and edulcorating what Malcolm X said and thought by essentially mixing Malcom X observation and MLK approach. Malcolm X wasn't the 'that's their business" kind of guy.

Thanks for teaching me a new word.

 

[Stacks]

What are you talking about? It's not about insecurities. This is clear historical fact. It's not imaginary to this very day people all over the world use and continue to use describing someone as black in a negative way. Just because you personally take it on the chin doesn't mean that others don't constantly get affected hugely negatively. Even today I met a friend of a friend and he said to me "wow I didn't except you to be so well mannered blacks aren't normally like that." that's in London again that may not affect you but it has hugely affected me and what I thought about black people and honestly it caused huge identity psychological issues for me. So if you are black and you personally are OK with it fine. But your parents and grandparents and their parents generations and generations percuted and killed whilst being called as nothing else but black no other description except that one feature.

Then your friend is a racist twat. simple. I didn't mean to dismiss your experiences. I am keen to know whether other demographic groups feel the same as you do. E.g. do the Jewish mind being referred to as Jews with the millennia of persecution experienced because they were Jewish? Do Muslims feel the same or any demographic that faced persecution and negative perceptions based off their demographic. It gets confusing because often they promote themselves as "such and such" community so you would think it's not taboo otherwise they would provide alternative terminology

 

[Stacks]

It's really for an other thread but you are somehow taking BLM out of context and edulcorating what Malcolm X said and thought by essentially mixing Malcom X observation and MLK approach. Malcolm X wasn't the 'that's their business" kind of guy.

Thanks for teaching me a new word too. What's amusing is that you are a French speaker and English is my first language. Regarding my point, in your opinion, is it ok to refer to "black people" as a collective but problematic when "black person" as an individual?

 

[Stacks]

A (similarly easy) more appropriate and accurate identifier would have been to describe Webo's physical position (e.g. 3rd from the left). Which would likely have been the case if everyone was of the same skin color. The fact that he was the only black guy on the bench is not an excuse to refer to him using a phrase that is considered derogratory and/or racist.This does not mean that the 4th offical is a racist (as that would require intent), but simply that the phrase he used was racist and inappropriate.

As to people's thinking being their business, I dont think you would feel so indifferent when said thinking denies you opportunities you would have otherwise gotten on the merit, or worse, if it makes a law enforcement use deadly force against you. When people in position of authority have prejudicial thoughts, the consequence could be very dire.

Calling someone black is not derogatory or racist. I'm sorry but that's crazy to me.

Obviously if they actively discriminate and use this against me then that's different. What I am getting at is I am aware backwards, moronic people exist. They will think what they think and they better keep it to themselves and stay out of my way.

 

[JPRouve]

Thanks for teaching me a new word too. What's amusing is that you are a French speaker and English is my first language. Regarding my point, in your opinion, is it ok to refer to "black people" as a collective but problematic when "black person" as an individual?

First I want to say that it's a complete tangent from the thread.

What does black people means as a collective? What does white people means as a collective? More often than not you shouldn't use the term black people to describe a collective because it has little meaning or relevance, it doesn't describe a particular geographical, cultural, ethnical or even social group. And a good example would be the US, while they are sometimes superficially lumped in the same group african immigrants and african-americans are two totally different cultural and social groups and african immigrants are divided in a multitude of subcultures and social groups.

It's one of these things that seem benign but are damaging because for some reason people have accepted the idea that blackness was a determining characteristic and they are judged based on that. You don't see that for people with other skin tones, slavs aren't white, they are slavs and aren't/shouldn't be confused with scandinavians or iberians, at the very least people accept it when they are told. So it's always strange that there is a push back on that, when people with a dark skin tone want to be given the right to choose what determine them and want to be given the benefit of their particularism.

 

[cheeky_backheel]

Calling someone black is not derogatory or racist. I'm sorry but that's crazy to me.

Obviously if they actively discriminate and use this against me then that's different. What I am getting at is I am aware backwards, moronic people exist. They will think what they think and they better keep it to themselves and stay out of my way.

Unfortunately, you dont get to define what is derogratory or racist for everyone else. Referring to someone as ' the black guy', particularly when there are other more appropriate phrases, is derogatory and racist. Its no different from referring to someone of smaller stature as a midget.

While its impossible to police people's thought, allowing discrimatory speech is only a step away from discrimatory actions and pervasive discrimatory speech also risks normalizing discrimatory thoughts.

 

[VorZakone]

I've lost what the word racism means. Is there an internationally agreed definition? Last time I checked it refers to believing a certain race is superior to others.

Simply identifying somebody by his skin color like in this case doesn't sound racist by definition. Does that assistant ref or whatever he was believe he is superior?

 

[JPRouve]

I've lost what the word racism means. Is there an internationally agreed definition? Last time I checked it refers to believing a certain race is superior to others.

Simply identifying somebody by his skin color like in this case doesn't sound racist by definition. Does that assistant ref or whatever he was believe he is superior?

Honestly I don't think that there is a lot of people arguing that it's a case of racism.

 

[ChatBat]

What are you talking about? It's not about insecurities. This is clear historical fact. It's not imaginary to this very day people all over the world use and continue to use describing someone as black in a negative way. Just because you personally take it on the chin doesn't mean that others don't constantly get affected hugely negatively. Even today I met a friend of a friend and he said to me "wow I didn't except you to be so well mannered blacks aren't normally like that." that's in London again that may not affect you but it has hugely affected me and what I thought about black people and honestly it caused huge identity psychological issues for me. So if you are black and you personally are OK with it fine. But your parents and grandparents and their parents generations and generations percuted and killed whilst being called as nothing else but black no other description except that one feature.

"wow, I didn't expect you to be so well mannered. People with such background aren't normally like that".

I have not used a single word that can be considered racist... heck, if you look at it the sentence is quite polite actually and yet... it's full blown racist.

And I don't understand how a country that has no cultural connection to black people at all (like zilch, none, non-existent... for many political reasons black people basically didn't exist until the 90s), have only started seeing a few here and there in the last 10 years, mostly in the big cities only, is immediately associated with being racist by saying the word black.

 

[MadMike]

Unfortunately, you dont get to define what is derogratory or racist for everyone else. Referring to someone as ' the black guy', particularly when there are other more appropriate phrases, is derogatory and racist. Its no different from referring to someone of smaller stature as a midget.

Yeah, but neither do you. In the UK society it's not particularly taboo to describe someone as black. The cultural content being produced very much reinforces that view. What you're doing in saying that referring to someone as "the black guy" is racist or derogatory, is basically the subject matter of the first clip from this BBC3 video below. Where it's openly mocking people for thinking the word black or describing someone as black is taboo or offensive.


And of course it's about how you use the word as well. In @mancan92's example: "wow I didn't except you to be so well mannered blacks aren't normally like that" . That's obviously racist because of the a negative false stereotype that person maintained about black people. And also "blacks" is at this moment considered not PC language. While saying "black people" is PC. Obviously, as always, context matters.

PS. That clip isn't ancient, it's only from September last year. And it's from BBC 3, not from the Daily Gammon. It's the channel that produces content for the younger generations and very often tackles sensitive racial subjects. It was written, directed and acted by Tai Campbell, who is also black.

 

[kiristao]

I've lost what the word racism means. Is there an internationally agreed definition? Last time I checked it refers to believing a certain race is superior to others.

Simply identifying somebody by his skin color like in this case doesn't sound racist by definition. Does that assistant ref or whatever he was believe he is superior?

Absolutely spot on. It has gone from when you treat someone differently based on skin colour or ethnicity to pretty much just referring to someone based on their skin colour or country of origin.
What makes it worse is that the black (or am I supposed to say African American) community happily uses the words 'black' and 'nigg*r' when referring to each other or in songs, etc but as soon as a white person uses the same word even to describe a physical characteristic with no malice meant whatsoever, there is hue and cry.

 

[Olly Gunnar Solskjær]

What makes it worse is that the black (or am I supposed to say African American) community happily uses the words 'black' and 'nigg*r' when referring to each other or in songs, etc but as soon as a white person uses the same word even to describe a physical characteristic with no malice meant whatsoever, there is hue and cry.

Some gay people use the word "faggot/fag", do you think it's ok and not offensive if a straight person uses it to refer to a gay person?

 

[kiristao]

Some gay people use the word "faggot/fag", do you think it's ok and not offensive if a straight person uses it to refer to a gay person?

Yes I do think it's offensive because faggot/fag is generally always used in a derogatory manner
Referring to someone as a black guy is not necessarily a derogatory reference. It could be a physical reference like white, tall, short, bald, etc.
My point was that people have stopped considering the thoughts behind the words and concentrate more on the word itself.

 

[mancan92]

Then your friend is a racist twat. simple. I didn't mean to dismiss your experiences. I am keen to know whether other demographic groups feel the same as you do. E.g. do the Jewish mind being referred to as Jews with the millennia of persecution experienced because they were Jewish? Do Muslims feel the same or any demographic that faced persecution and negative perceptions based off their demographic. It gets confusing because often they promote themselves as "such and such" community so you would think it's not taboo otherwise they would provide alternative terminology

You would have to ask them.

Yeah, but neither do you. In the UK society it's not particularly taboo to describe someone as black. The cultural content being produced very much reinforces that view. What you're doing in saying that referring to someone as "the black guy" is racist or derogatory, is basically the subject matter of the first clip from this BBC3 video below. Where it's openly mocking people for thinking the word black or describing someone as black is taboo or offensive.


And of course it's about how you use the word as well. In @mancan92's example: "wow I didn't except you to be so well mannered blacks aren't normally like that" . That's obviously racist because of the a negative false stereotype that person maintained about black people. And also "blacks" is at this moment considered not PC language. While saying "black people" is PC. Obviously, as always, context matters.

PS. That clip isn't ancient, it's only from September last year. And it's from BBC 3, not from the Daily Gammon. It's the channel that produces content for the younger generations and very often tackles sensitive racial subjects. It was written, directed and acted by Tai Campbell, who is also black.

Unfortunately this is where systematic racism comes into play. He told me exactly what he thought. Most people wouldn't they would just say black but without clearly saying the negative attachment they had to the word.
They will still think it but not say it.

"wow, I didn't expect you to be so well mannered. People with such background aren't normally like that".

I have not used a single word that can be considered racist... heck, if you look at it the sentence is quite polite actually and yet... it's full blown racist.

And I don't understand how a country that has no cultural connection to black people at all (like zilch, none, non-existent... for many political reasons black people basically didn't exist until the 90s), have only started seeing a few here and there in the last 10 years, mostly in the big cities only, is immediately associated with being racist by saying the word black.

No one said the guy was racist but in a professional environment uefa who are the second biggest football association in the world should be respectful of how they speak with people in a professional environment.

 

[mancan92]

Yes I do think it's offensive because faggot/fag is generally always used in a derogatory manner
Referring to someone as a black guy is not necessarily a derogatory reference. It could be a physical reference like white, tall, short, bald, etc.
My point was that people have stopped considering the thoughts behind the words and concentrate more on the word itself.

It is mostly used in a negative context literally only till a couple of years ago if you wrote black guy into Google the Google results would automatically show are thefts to finish your sentence. In my example the guy just clearly said what he actually thinks of black people most people are quiet. There's very few times in history where black has been attached to positive scenarios that is entertainment (sports music) every other time it is used for negative things.

 

[ChatBat]

No one said the guy was racist but in a professional environment uefa who are the second biggest football association in the world should be respectful of how they speak with people in a professional environment.

Only the whole western media.

 

[mancan92]

Only the whole western media.

No they said what he said has racist connotations behind it. He was ignorant and not educated in the issue. And what he said can offend someone but that wasn't his intention probably.

Is he racist? We don't know
Did he mean to offend? Probably not
Could what he did offend someone? Yes
Should he be better educated? Yes.

 

[MadMike]

It is mostly used in a negative context literally only till a couple of years ago if you wrote black guy into Google the Google results would automatically show are thefts to finish your sentence. In my example the guy just clearly said what he actually thinks of black people most people are quiet. There's very few times in history where black has been attached to positive scenarios that is entertainment (sports music) every other time it is used for negative things.

Well I would say that since then 60-70s with Black Power and Black is Beautiful movements and up to this day, a lot of work has gone to promote a positive image for the word black and for the community it represents by association. In went the opposite direction of the n-word and the word "coloured", while those became unacceptable verbalisation of racism the word black was heavily promoted. I don't know when it "arrived" but I wouldn't agree that it's so very recent as the last couple of years.

Obviously such things are not always shared experiences. Not everyone feels the same. I'm not telling you how to feel. But it seems a very large number of black people these days, particularly younger ones, take a pride in their black identity and don't see the word black itself as carrying a negative meaning without any other context. Because again, and this cannot be stressed enough, context is paramount. Whatever identifying word you use, if the rest of the sentence is full of racist tropes and stereotypes then what good is it?

No they said what he said has racist connotations behind it. He was ignorant and not educated in the issue. And what he said can offend someone but that wasn't his intention probably.

Is he racist? We don't know
Did he mean to offend? Probably not
Could what he did offend someone? Yes
Should he be better educated? Yes.

To be fair, a lot of people even in this thread said that what he said was racist based on the translation. Anyhow, I fully agree with the rest of your post. There was no reason to identify the coach by race there, it was insensitive and could of course offend someone.

 

[mancan92]

Well I would say that since then 60-70s with Black Power and Black is Beautiful movements and up to this day, a lot of work has gone to promote a positive image for the word black and for the community it represents by association. In went the opposite direction of the n-word and the word "coloured", while those became unacceptable verbalisation of racism the word black was heavily promoted. I don't know when it "arrived" but I wouldn't agree that it's so very recent as the last couple of years.

Obviously such things are not always shared experiences. Not everyone feels the same. I'm not telling you how to feel. But it seems a very large number of black people these days, particularly younger ones, take a pride in their black identity and don't see the word black itself as carrying a negative meaning without any other context. Because again, and this cannot be stressed enough, context is paramount. Whatever identifying word you use, if the rest of the sentence is full of racist tropes and stereotypes then what good is it?



To be fair, a lot of people even in this thread said that what he said was racist based on the translation. Anyhow, I fully agree with the rest of your post. There was no reason to identify the coach by race there, it was insensitive and could of course offend someone.

They work to promote it why do you think they have to do that?

To this day in Africa the biggest selling medical product is skin lightening cream why do you think that is?

Also yes recently kids who are more educated have taken a stand and embraced their blackness it's a movement and with any movement it takes time doesn't mean that things are great now we are fighting for things to get better. It's not changed over night. I'm from Nigeria it was only until a couple years back that people now tell me I'm co if I wear my. Nigerian clothes. But before that it would be just people laughing and calling you zulu.

 

[MadMike]

They work to promote it why do you think they have to do that?

Why do you think?

Ultimately every word that has been used to describe people of African descent has been tarred to some extent through history because of persisting racism and racist stereotypes. That would even apply to any new words we come up with, until we break those stereotypes. If we shift to using the word Asgardians over black in 50 years time, then the sentence "wow I didn't expect you to be so well mannered, Asgardians aren't normally like that" is still racist as feck. And then that word will be tarred. And on and on and on.

What has happened in the last 50 years has been an effort to promote a positive image about black people. For multitudes of reasons. To change the narrative, to increase visibility, to break negative stereotypes, to address injustice, to make people comfortable in their skin, to break systemic racism. To fix things. And the word that was chosen for promotion, was black. And we are where we are now.

One more thing, the way society is heading, is not a colour-blind society. We're comparing salaries by race, we're demanding boardroom quotas for minorities, we set up scholarship programmes targeting them, we have music awards only for black people etc. etc. We are, very openly, identifying people by race in many facets of society today. There is no sign of that decreasing any time soon. And while we keep doing that, we can't be also claiming that racial identification of individuals is problematic without any other context. Context matters.

 

[mancan92]

Why do you think?

Ultimately every word that has been used to describe people of African descent has been tarred to some extent through history because of persisting racism and racist stereotypes. That would even apply to any new words we come up with, until we break those stereotypes. If we shift to using the word Asgardians over black in 50 years time, then the sentence "wow I didn't expect you to be so well mannered, Asgardians aren't normally like that" is still racist as feck. And then that word will be tarred. And on and on and on.

What has happened in the last 50 years has been an effort to promote a positive image about black people. For multitudes of reasons. To change the narrative, to increase visibility, to break negative stereotypes, to address injustice, to make people comfortable in their skin, to break systemic racism. To fix things. And the word that was chosen for promotion, was black. And we are where we are now.

One more thing, the way society is heading, is not a colour-blind society. We're comparing salaries by race, we're demanding boardroom quotas for minorities, we set up scholarship programmes targeting them, we have music awards only for black people etc. etc. We are, very openly, identifying people by race in many facets of society today. There is no sign of that decreasing any time soon. And while we keep doing that, we can't be also claiming that racial identification of individuals is problematic without any other context. Context matters.

You first paragraph you have already explained to yourself why it can be painful and offensive. Thanks i don't need to reply. A movement has started so clearly we are no where near the end so till then we complain about these situations.

 

[OL29]

What makes it worse is that the black (or am I supposed to say African American) community happily uses the words 'black' and 'nigg*r' when referring to each other or in songs, etc but as soon as a white person uses the same word even to describe a physical characteristic with no malice meant whatsoever, there is hue and cry.

When you say the ‘black community’ who exactly are you referring to? Because I know plenty of black people who wouldn’t even dream of using the word n*****r. So when you’re referencing the black community you need to be more specific, because to me you just sound like a racist cnut who’s desperate to use racial slurs.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

When you say the ‘black community’ who exactly are you referring to? Because I know plenty of black people who wouldn’t even dream of using the word n*****r. So when you’re referencing the black community you need to be more specific, because to me you just sound like a racist cnut who’s desperate to use racial slurs.

This./

What an utter disaster of a post he had. When the they say it so why can’t I say it argument rears it’s head it’s rather obvious you’re dealing with the denser members of the forum.

 

[kiristao]

When you say the ‘black community’ who exactly are you referring to? Because I know plenty of black people who wouldn’t even dream of using the word n*****r. So when you’re referencing the black community you need to be more specific, because to me you just sound like a racist cnut who’s desperate to use racial slurs.

Are you really trying to tell me that you have never heard black people refer to others as black or as 'nig**r'. There are literally thousands of videos online of black people using the word to other black people, to cops, etc.
Black standup comedians do it all the time. So do singers/rappers. I even remember Oprah saying it is time for America to have a black president when she was endorsing Obama. Can you imagine the uproar if some white celebrity had said it's now time to once again have a white president while endorsing Trump?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/newsbeat-44209141
Read the article and you will hopefully get what I am trying to say about how it's totally fine for a black person to use the word but when a white person does it, they are branded racist even without considering the context.

And I don't appreciate you calling me a cnut. You want to discuss something in a civilized manner than I am all for it or please do not respond to my post

 

[kiristao]

This./

What an utter disaster of a post he had. When the they say it so why can’t I say it argument rears it’s head it’s rather obvious you’re dealing with the denser members of the forum.

I never said they say it so I should be able to say it. My point was that black people say it often. At times out of anger. At times as a joke. At times as an adjective and that is all acceptable by everyone but when someone who is not a black person says it, no one looks at thr context in which it is said but just jump at the use of the word and brand him a racist just like you guys did to me now.
i come from India where even if I want to be racist, I can be racist as we don't have black people here.

 

[DrRodo]

I never said they say it so I should be able to say it. My point was that black people say it often. At times out of anger. At times as a joke. At times as an adjective and that is all acceptable by everyone but when someone who is not a black person says it, no one looks at thr context in which it is said but just jump at the use of the word and brand him a racist just like you guys did to me now.
i come from India where even if I want to be racist, I can be racist as we don't have black people here.

You mean black people in US media sometimes use those terms...

But you're saying "black people say that word" so also people from haiti, south africa, south america, british people, etc etc, they all say those words.

I hope you can notice now why your post is a disaster. You're stereotyping people based on their skin colour even without wanting to.

Thats racist