Racism incident in PSG v Istanbul match

[calodo2003]

I don't agree and doing so only softens what is termed as racism. A white guy is a white guy, a black guy is a black guy, a Chinese guy is a Chinese guy .... or woman, this is not racism.

Have you ever managed a multicultural group of subordinates in a professional setting?

 

[SilentWitness]

Knowing the names of the staff you're reffing isn't a requirement anywhere. I don't think any ref in the world does that.

In their own league they'd have more awareness of who is who but in international games it's less likely

It doesn’t have to be a requirement but it’s not difficult to do and avoids situations like this.

 

[LilyWhiteSpur]

What does this even mean? You’re excusing the inexcusable for what reason exactly?

Ahhh the old "I am excusing racism line" , if i hear ANY derogatory term used I will quite rightly blast it, funny thing is, you don't even know what race I am.

 

[VeevaVee]

Ok, so there is a white guy, a Chinese guy, a black guy and an Indian and you have to point one out, what do you say? And why do you say it?

"That guy there"? "Guy on the left?"

I also think context comes in to this a lot. I have a Chinese mate who wouldn't give a feck being referred to like this by a mate pointing him out to someone. But I'm almost certain if someone he didn't know did it it he wouldn't like it at all, especially in a professional setting. It would be, at best, rude and pretty disrespectful.

 

[Revan]

Why was he even talking in Romanian?
Had he said "this black guy there", surely there would have been no such reaction.

Because generally, Romanians speak to each other in Romanian.

We should cancel both Romanian and Spanish.

 

[Marat]

Doesn’t matter - as Demba Ba points out you do not have to mention it at all.

Of course you do. Simply because black people in Europe is not normative. (not yet)

 

[LilyWhiteSpur]

Have you ever managed a multicultural group of subordinates in a professional setting?

How does that matter? Are you calling me racist? What race am i?

 

[UncleBob]

By being a well prepared official that does their research prior to a game?

Is it common for officials, at any level whatsoever, to know the name and looks of the entire staff that's on the bench?

 

[SilentWitness]

Is it common for officials, at any level whatsoever, to know the name and looks of the entire staff that's on the bench?

I would feel confident in saying that most PL officials will know the names and faces of the majority of players/staff that they officiate.

 

[LilyWhiteSpur]

"That guy there"? "Guy on the left?"

I also think context comes in to this a lot. I have a Chinese mate who wouldn't give a feck being referred to like this by a mate pointing him out to someone. But I'm almost certain if someone he didn't know did it it he wouldn't like it at all, especially in a professional setting. It would be, at best, rude and pretty disrespectful.

"On the left of who?" Its not rude, to call it rude suggests you think there is something wrong with being black or Chinese, this is all shades of fecked up.

 

[Zehner]

Assuming that he really used the descriptive term "black" then this is the second incident of this within weeks, Cavani being the first one. I think it's quite weird that this problem only surfaces now. It's not racist in the language it was spoken but understood as such because of the similarity to a clearly racist word in English. And as this thread proves, there's not really a common ground how to deal with those things.

Personally I don't think you'd be punished for using a descriptive term, as long as it's not insulting. After all we do have different appearances and skin color is one of the most striking physical features. If it's discriminating to use it to describe a human being, where exactly do we draw the line?

 

[calodo2003]

Would surprise me if they didn't. In which case the refs maybe thought they can have a little off protocol chat there.

(Keeping in mind the "in black" explanation, as one user claimed, whatever its likeliness.)

This is close to the pinnacle of the profession, they undoubtedly receive training on their interactions with players & staff, if only as an insurance hedge by their national / international associations & very boilerplate.

As a professional at that level, you just can’t speak in such an obtuse way. The fact that some on here are saying it’s acceptable is baffling.

 

[LilyWhiteSpur]

I would feel confident in saying that most PL officials will know the names and faces of the majority of players/staff that they officiate.

The CL isn't the PL.

 

[ChaddyP]

I'm very pale (Irish) and when I was in Siciliy ~ 10 years ago I noticed I was referred to as by a certain word quite often in restaurants etc by the natives, I remember looking it up at the time and finding out it meant "pale person" or "ghost" - some loose translation like that.

My Italian was and still is very poor but from what I gathered it would be in situations like:

"Whose gelato is this?"
"The pale white guy and his woman"

I did find it quite rude to be honest, to be referred to by my pale skin so flippantly like that, especially with the "and his woman" part: like she is some accessory of mine.

At the time I begrudgingly chalked it down to just cultural/linguistics/whatever but it did leave a sour taste in my mouth.

I can't imagine how the Istanbul coach felt, after everything that has happened this year, for someone to do that.

Whether or not the official was in the right, as we become more global this is a conversation that needs to happen

Yeh it always leaves me annoyed when people refer to what they think my race is. The worst part is they think I'm something I'm not. But I don't consider them doing it out of spite or racism. They just do it because well that's just how they talk. I don't expect others to feel the way I feel about it but that's just my experience

 

[SilentWitness]

The CL isn't the PL.

Indeed, it’s a higher level.

 

[LilyWhiteSpur]

Indeed, it’s a higher level.

Yeah..... with less regular teams.... this is all bullshit and dilutes what racism is.

 

[VeevaVee]

"On the left of who?" Its not rude, to call it rude suggests you think there is something wrong with being black or Chinese, this is all shades of fecked up.

How do you point out anyone white then? You manage don't you?

 

[slyadams]

So here's the difference between saying "the blonde guy" and "the black guy" nowadays. People aren't stopped by the police for being blonde. Blondes haven't been systemically discriminated against for generations. There's no language close to calling someone blonde that is offensive.

I accept this is a very difficult distinction to make in the heat of the moment, but its basically the concept of a protected class: there are groups of people who have been, and continue to be subjected to, significant discrimination, so they are afforded increased protection. To me, this seems entirely reasonable, and the onus falls on those who are not in these groups to recognize this is not a problem we have and it isn't about us. Its not my place to comment on whether the coach should object to be being called "the black one".

 

[Wade3]

Thin ice this, but if the ref asked, which one did it and he doesnt know their names, referring to him as the black guy is sort of apt.

Please dont kill me for this internet

I agree with you.

 

[calodo2003]

How does that matter? Are you calling me racist? What race am i?

Of course I’m not calling you racist. I’m asking if you have ever had to operate professionally in such a setting.

I am still vacillating between racism or ignorance on the official’s part, but you just can’t use descriptors like he did if he wasn’t referring to the clothing worn by the player.

 

[Mogget]

Have you ever managed a multicultural group of subordinates in a professional setting?

I can just picture it now.

Senior manager: Hey @InLevyITrust, have you got an update for me with that report?

@InLevyITrust: I've asked the Indian to do it, but he's not at his desk. He's either with the Woman or with the Black one. I'll go send the Chinese one to look for him.

 

[LilyWhiteSpur]

How do you point out anyone white then? You manage don't you?

"the white guy with what ever colour of hair, build etc"

 

[Peyroteo]

How do you point out anyone white then? You manage don't you?

If there's a group of 15 people and there are 2 or 3 white guys then most people would use the term white to describe one of them no?

While if there's 15 people and 12 are white then it's less likely

 

[cheeky_backheel]

It is simply unacceptable and the guy should be banned for a few years.

 

[calodo2003]

The CL isn't the PL.

It’s closer to the pinnacle of the profession than the PL, both for teams & officials.

 

[Dismember]

what is worse than racism is the fake support and forced public outcry over it. In NBA, Harrel from the clippers called luka doncic ”bitch ass white boy” in the middle of the match and everyone wrote it off just because there is no agenda in making a public outcry. In fact people laughed at it. And harrel wasn’t pointing at him to identify him, he was disrespecting him personally.
in movies you can’t say anything if it’s a black person just because this is the agenda now, but you can mock Asians racially because the west hates China So for now it’s ok. The agenda decides what you can say and when. Lets not even go over what you can say to Arabs because everything is unrestricted when it comes to abusing Arabs.

 

[LilyWhiteSpur]

Of course I’m not calling you racist. I’m asking if you have ever had to operate professionally in such a setting.

I am still vacillating between racism or ignorance on the official’s part, but you just can’t use descriptors like he did if he wasn’t referring to the clothing worn by the player.

FFS if you have a staff of players, wearing the same clothes, what the hell else can you say? And again tell me what is wrong with calling a black person and black person? Trust me there is one here with me right now who cant see your argument?

 

[Hoboman]

I can guarantee that most PL officials will know the names and faces of the majority of players/staff that they officiate.

Same officials who mistakenly sent off Kieran Gibbs instead of Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain.

Again, if BLM slogan isn't regarded as racist, neither should official's use of word 'black' in this situation.

 

[LilyWhiteSpur]

It’s closer to the pinnacle of the profession than the PL, both for teams & officials.

Man, your basically saying calling black person black is wrong.

 

[calodo2003]

Assuming that he really used the descriptive term "black" then this is the second incident of this within weeks, Cavani being the first one. I think it's quite weird that this problem only surfaces now. It's not racist in the language it was spoken but understood as such because of the similarity to a clearly racist word in English. And as this thread proves, there's not really a common ground how to deal with those things.

Personally I don't think you'd be punished for using a descriptive term, as long as it's not insulting. After all we do have different appearances and skin color is one of the most striking physical features. If it's discriminating to use it to describe a human being, where exactly do we draw the line?

Insults affect recipients, not deliverers. You can’t use such a descriptor in a professional setting like this when managing a group.

 

[Peyroteo]

It’s closer to the pinnacle of the profession than the PL, both for teams & officials.

Referees are obviously less likely to know the names of the staff members in european competitions than in domestic competitions. Even if it's a higher level of football.

 

[The Oracle]

If it is true that the linesman/4th Official referred to Demba Ba as 'The black one', then I can completely understand Demba Ba's argument that the same person likely wouldn't refer to another player as 'The white one' etc.

Poor choice of words from the Official.

Only mitigating circumstances I can think of (and this is purely my opinion), is that the Official was describing the person's most distinct feature...
For example:
- The blonde haired one
- The tall one
- The short one
- The long haired one
- The black one

Of course describing a person as 'one' can be quite offensive...
Look at the difference is you change the word 'one' to 'person'
- The blonde haired person
- The tall person
- The short person
- The long haired person
- The black person

...much less offensive, if offensive at all (each person to their own).

 

[VorZakone]

At this point I don't think it's about "what could he have said to refer to or identify Webo"? I've been guilty of that myself.

There's always a way to identify or refer to somebody. But I can imagine sometimes it's simply quicker or more convenient to use skin color. And as long as the intent is innocent, I personally don't really see a problem with that.

That being said, will we hear an official explanation tomorrow?

 

[VeevaVee]

If there's a group of 15 people and there are 2 or 3 white guys then most people would use the term white to describe one of them no?

While if there's 15 people and 12 are white then it's less likely

Probably, but it's not as straight forward as that. I certainly wouldn't do it in a professional setting either

 

[JPRouve]

How on earth will they know the names of all the people on the staff?

It's supposed to be on the team sheet and iirc that information is under the possession of the 4th referee during games.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Wow. After all the genuinely vile and malicious racism we’ve seen in the stands at many football matches - without any meaningful consequences - it’s kind of mad that the first time we actually have a big match abandoned seems to be mainly down to a combination of naivety and something being lost in translation.

 

[calodo2003]

I can just picture it now.

Senior manager: Hey @InLevyITrust, have you got an update for me with that report?

@InLevyITrust: I've asked the Indian to do it, but he's not at his desk. He's either with the Woman or with the Black one. I'll go send the Chinese one to look for him.

But apparently because all the descriptors aren’t true pejoratives, it’s all kosher.

 

[UncleBob]

I would feel confident in saying that most PL officials will know the names and faces of the majority of players/staff that they officiate.

Doesn't sound like you're confident about answering my question, though.

In terms of your example of PL officials, christ, they officiate the league almost every weekend, but even then expecting them to know the names and faces of the majority of the staff is mental. Managers, obviously, but even assistant managers will be less known depending on the club they're at.

Referees in competitions in foreign leagues aren't sitting down to memorize the names and faces of the various members that make out the staff.

Why are we suddenly going to pretend that referees should damn well know how everyone in a foreign staff looks and what their names are. Bizarre.

 

[slyadams]

FFS if you have a staff of players, wearing the same clothes, what the hell else can you say? And again tell me what is wrong with calling a black person and black person? Trust me there is one here with me right now who cant see your argument?

Are you serious right now? If you have an opinion can I claim that all white people should agree with you? Its possible different people in the same race feel differently about this.

 

[LilyWhiteSpur]

It's supposed to be on the team sheet and iirc that information is under the possession of the 4th referee during games.

A team sheet wont have the picture of the person beside their name FFS.