Racism incident in PSG v Istanbul match

[Ibragol]

This whole thing is absurd. Apparently you're not allowed to describe a black person as "black"? Does the same rules apply for other groups?
"Negru" in Romanian means black. As the color, you know. It's negro in Spanish, nero in Italian and noir in French. If the color of black is offensive to you then it's you who have problem.

They are ruining that referee's career because of false racist accusations. It's disgusting and society has gone fecking nuts.

 

[Siorac]

In this context yes, not when referring to the colour of a shirt or football boots etc., and if they have I agree that's wrong.

They have, and they did so in the Cavani thread as well. That's the point.

I wasn't defending the official - as I said, I think it's very reasonable to say he shouldn't use skin colour to identify someone. I also think there was no malice in it so he should not be punished; an apology should be enough in such a case. Some Caf users, however, do seem to believe that he should simply avoid using words like that altogether. Look up sammsky's posts in the Cavani thread. Or, well, look at the example @Moonwalker provided.

 

[mancan92]

That's the point, and Demba Ba was very explicit about it:

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Look at the pain and anguish from the assistant and Demba Ba yet you have people here acting like its a non issue. Clearly many of us feel strongly clearly strongly enough to protest and fight. Have some respect.

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

You are getting confused. Remember historical context and you will find your way to understanding.

Yes the historical context is we can’t use certain words to discriminate based on race. Describing someone by the colour of their skin isn’t racist and doesn’t at all link to historical connotations in Thai context unless you go looking for links. With this attitude we can’t even use the word black anymore.

 

[Siorac]

How is it unreasonable? Demba Ba for example seems to either be totally aware of what the official said or has been told.

Redcafe and its mostly English speaking posters had nothing to do with the incidents of yesterday. The comment was directed at a French speaking Cameroonian, working for a Turkish club. He was defended by a French speaking Senegalese, working for a Turkish club. And a Turkish manager. And was supported in walking off the pitch by a multi national team, only one of whom could be said to come from an English speaking country. He was accompanied by the players and coaches of a French team, none of whom could be said to be from an anglophone country.

The thoughts of Irish, Americans or Brits had nothing to do with what happened yesterday and its a bit of a cop out to suggest that as a defence.

And I don't think what that assistant did yesterday was racist.

Sigh. Again, I'm not using it as a defence of anything. I'm criticising Caf posters who suggested the referee should be mindful of using the word AT ALL because well, that's stupid.

And again, I understand that Demba Ba was aware of what the ref said and he felt it was inappropriate. And I agree! He shouldn't have done it. I'm not arguing with Ba here, nor with his teammates or with the PSG players. I'm arguing with Caf posters like this:

Something like that.
English is lingua franca today and everyone speaks it yet few really understand it and the culture behind it.
I will never forget when I hooked up with this white german girl in Vancouver, Canada and the night before we hung out with this black guy who was using the N word all the time in all his stories.
Next day me and her, we were walking this place which is really like a ghetto and she started impersonating him, dropping N word like its nothing... I was like wtf...do you know what youre doing, here out of all places?
And she had no idea N word was something bad, a taboo in English. She was just impersonating a guy from last night.



I guess the lesson here is if everyone speak english these days and if everything is in english people better learn the culture and the taboos too. No other way.
This ref is from Romania. Different culture. He should know better because he is a ref.
So yeah he only has himself to blame I guess.

Everyone will need to learn customs etc in the english language and culture if we all agree its the universal language of communication.

That last sentence is, well, stupid. And it should be clearly noted as such.

 

[mancan92]

Yes the historical context is we can’t use certain words of discriminate based on race. Describing someone by the colour of their skin isn’t racist and doesn’t at all link to historical connotations in Thai context unless you go looking for links. With this attitude we can’t even use the word black anymore.

The historical context is the same. "Black" has sooo many negative historical connotations attached to it that someone being pointed out as "black" can make you feel like no matter what I have done with my life all I will ever be is just the black guy and whatever stereotypical aspects that come with that.

Again look at the reaction of the assistant & Demba Ba and have some compassion. Clearly it is not a simple issue or the two people invovled wouldn't be so passionate about it. If you dont understand then listen to us.

 

[slyadams]

The most ludicrous outtake from this thread is the notion that one should refrain from using words in their own language if they happen to be synophones with pejorative words in another language, cause 'they should know better'.

Do yourself a favor and read the thread.

The guy said:

But even apart from that: it looks like he didn't say 'the black guy' (with those English words), but something including the Romanian word 'negru'. I have no idea about the connotations in Romanian, but certainly the close relatives I know (English 'negro', French 'nègre', Dutch 'neger') are not used anymore and would all be seen as condescending, if not insulting. Certainly a ref should know better than speaking like this, whatever language he uses.

How is this equivalent? The words here are not the generic term for black in these languages! 'nègre' and 'neger' both translate to 'negro', not black (noir and zwart respectively). The original post I disagreed with said that people were claiming people should not be allowed to use the word 'black' in any context and you backed that up by someone suggesting we shouldn't use the term 'negro'. Personally, I'm 100% OK with saying negro isn't an OK word to use anymore.

 

[Berbaclass]

I feel like this is just a massive misunderstanding. I personally didn't consider it racist.

 

[Moonwalker]

He is clearly talking about using the words when referencing a person, not in any context at all. You can tell this by the use of the words "condescending, if not insulting ". Generally people only worry about being condescending to people and not shirts or boots.

He is talking about a specific word and its 'relatives'. The English phonetic relative of the word 'negru' would be a word that's mainly not used to describe objects, which clearly isn't the case with the word's semantic relative 'black'. Clearly he is talking about not using the word at all. You don't have to read Truth and Method to figure that out.

 

[horsechoker]

Istanbul Basaksehir bench saying: "In my country, Romanians are gypsies".

This needs looking at as well.

 

[Vialli_92]

Totally overblown. It's racism now to identify someone with the colour of their skin? It was unprofessional of the ref to use that term but definitely a total over reaction of the incident. If I was the only white guy in a group of people and someone identified me by the colour of my skin and said "the white one" I would not take any offence to that.

 

[Berbaclass]

This needs looking at as well.

Yeah. To me, this is overtly more racist than the actual incident being talked about as there is a negative connotation to it.

 

[AC1689]

I feel like this is just a massive misunderstanding. I personally didn't consider it racist.

Well that settles it then. Someone go and tell Pierre and Demba that it was all a misunderstanding.

How silly of them to construe it as racist.

 

[Berbaclass]

Well that settles it then. Someone go and tell Pierre and Demba that it was all a misunderstanding.

How silly of them to construe it as racist.

Grow up.

 

[2mufc0]

Totally overblown. It's racism now to identify someone with the colour of their skin? It was unprofessional of the ref to use that term but definitely a total over reaction of the incident. If I was the only white guy in a group of people and someone identified me by the colour of my skin and said "the white one" I would not take any offence to that.

That's because you've never experienced racism and not qualified to talk about it and hence feel as though it can't be offensive.

This incident looks like a misunderstanding to me. But as others have pointed out it was unprofessional.

 

[horsechoker]

Totally overblown. It's racism now to identify someone with the colour of their skin? It was unprofessional of the ref to use that term but definitely a total over reaction of the incident. If I was the only white guy in a group of people and someone identified me by the colour of my skin and said "the white one" I would not take any offence to that.

Not all words or ways of talking about people mean the same thing to everyone.

If someone calls me "boy" I don't take take much offence but if somebody calls a black person and in particular an African-American man "boy" well that becomes very insulting and offensive due to how that word has been used in a disrespectful and racist manner by police in America towards African-Americans.

 

[mancan92]

Totally overblown. It's racism now to identify someone with the colour of their skin? It was unprofessional of the ref to use that term but definitely a total over reaction of the incident. If I was the only white guy in a group of people and someone identified me by the colour of my skin and said "the white one" I would not take any offence to that.

Of course you wouldn't because there is not hundreds of years of negative connotations attached to "white"

 

[Berbaclass]

That's because you've never experienced racism and not qualified to talk about it and hence feel as though it can't be offensive.

This incident looks like a misunderstanding to me. But as others have pointed out it was unprofessional.

I think everybody agrees that calling somebody black in certain contexts is absolutely racist, just maybe not this one.

Like you say it looks like a misunderstanding and I would agree.

 

[Zlatan 7]

This needs looking at as well.

It will just be ignored, same as the poster who was xenophobic towards Romanians earlier in the thread who has now deleted the post.

there’s levels to discrimination

 

[WeePat]

Totally overblown. It's racism now to identify someone with the colour of their skin? It was unprofessional of the ref to use that term but definitely a total over reaction of the incident. If I was the only white guy in a group of people and someone identified me by the colour of my skin and said "the white one" I would not take any offence to that.

But your experience as a white person in Europe is hardly the same as a black person in Europe so whether you would take offence to being referred to by your skin colour has very little relevance to this situation.

 

[Vialli_92]

Of course you wouldn't because there is not hundreds of years of negative connotations attached to "white"

What about equality? Why is it ok to say a white guy but not a black guy? If someone is black they are black and if someone is white they are white I don't understand how this has gone this far. It's totally overblown. Maybe i'm just too simple to see a problem with this.

 

[mancan92]

What about equality? Why is it ok to say a white guy but not a black guy? If someone is black they are black and if someone is white they are white I don't understand how this has gone this far. It's totally overblown. Maybe i'm just too simple to see a problem with this.

Did you read my posts or any of the other posts in the thread. I explained to you why its different. Hundreds of years of negative use of the word vs zero years of negative use of a word. You still don't see the difference

 

[africanspur]

What about equality? Why is it ok to say a white guy but not a black guy? If someone is black they are black and if someone is white they are white I don't understand how this has gone this far. It's totally overblown. Maybe i'm just too simple to see a problem with this.

Well we still don't have equality in Europe or North America between white and non-white citizens, as well as the much more drastic inequality between the global north and the global south so yes, let's talk about equality? What about it?

 

[Zlatan 7]

Of course you wouldn't because there is not hundreds of years of negative connotations attached to "white"

Just to be clear as I’ve read a number of your posts saying the same thing, it is ok to identify a white Person by their colour but not a black Person? This is a genuine question as you seem to making the point that black people can not and should not be identified by their colour due to the past hundred plus years, is there an end point to this in your opinion? This is a genuine question

 

[africanspur]

Just to be clear as I’ve read a number of your posts saying the same thing, it is ok to identify a white Person by their colour but not a black Person? This is a genuine question as you seem to making the point that black people can not and should not be identified by their colour due to the past hundred plus years, is there an end point to this in your opinion? This is a genuine question

The two are not the same because of the historical connotations of the terms.

Regardless, for me personally, I would prefer to move away from any descriptors using colour. Particularly when talking in a professional context.

If humanity had a different history, one in which the dominant global cultures didn't just spend the last few hundreds years importing black Africans by their millions from one continent to others to be used as slaves and racism didn't still exist, then sure, go ahead.

That world doesnt exist though so until we even get to something resembling proper equality, then I'd prefer to avoid it.

 

[mancan92]

Just to be clear as I’ve read a number of your posts saying the same thing, it is ok to identify a white Person by their colour but not a black Person? This is a genuine question as you seem to making the point that black people can not and should not be identified by their colour due to the past hundred plus years, is there an end point to this in your opinion? This is a genuine question

If you read the post you wouldn't need to ask me this question. Is there a difference between a word/ phrase used and attached to hundreds of years of oppression and negative attachment and a word with zero years of oppression and negative attachment?

 

[africanspur]

Sigh. Again, I'm not using it as a defence of anything. I'm criticising Caf posters who suggested the referee should be mindful of using the word AT ALL because well, that's stupid.

And again, I understand that Demba Ba was aware of what the ref said and he felt it was inappropriate. And I agree! He shouldn't have done it. I'm not arguing with Ba here, nor with his teammates or with the PSG players. I'm arguing with Caf posters like this:


That last sentence is, well, stupid. And it should be clearly noted as such.

To be clear, I wasn't saying you were defending the official, I was talking about posters in general.

What I've noticed from some posters (again, not you) whilst using this particular anglophone sphere defence is to pretend that we're imposing English cultural norms on (insert a particular Southern or Eastern European, South American, East or South East Asian) cultures while they're just doing something they do in their culture. Even if that particular action or comments are demonstrably offensive or racist themselves. Its nonsense.

To counteract that particular point, you had South American posters in the Cavani thread (again, I do not think Cavani had any racist intent AT ALL to what he said) pretend that this was some European imperialism against the South Americans, who don't see race or have racism in their continent.

 

[RoyH1]

Istanbul Basaksehir bench saying: "In my country, Romanians are gypsies".

That needs looking into as well. Dumb thing to say after you’ve been complaining about racist language. And here there’s no ambiguity about the intent.

 

[Moonwalker]

Well that settles it then. Someone go and tell Pierre and Demba that it was all a misunderstanding.

How silly of them to construe it as racist.

People misconstrue things as racist all the time; just look at history of outrage over the use of the word 'niggardly', where students were in tears over teachers using that term before they knew what the word means.

Doesn't look like Demba Ba has misconstrued anything though, he doesn't like the color of someone's skin to ever be referred to in this type of exchange. I think he is right on that point but it just seems a bit too academic to cause the sort of emotional impact that it did, when we've seen countless incidents that were far worse over the years, with players soldiering on/reporting it afterwards.

It could be the proverbial straw, or it could be Webo took it for something even worse than what it was due to phonetic similarity. If it were the latter this whole incident would make so much more sense to me.

 

[Zlatan 7]

If you read the post you wouldn't need to ask me this question. Is there a difference between a word/ phrase used and attached to hundreds of years of oppression and negative attachment and a word with zero years of oppression and negative attachment?

Ok, I tried. You carry on

 

[mancan92]

That needs looking into as well. Dumb thing to say after you’ve been complaining about racist language. And here there’s no ambiguity about the intent.

Yep 100% uefa should be seriously looking into this.

 

[kouroux]

Just to be clear as I’ve read a number of your posts saying the same thing, it is ok to identify a white Person by their colour but not a black Person? This is a genuine question as you seem to making the point that black people can not and should not be identified by their colour due to the past hundred plus years, is there an end point to this in your opinion? This is a genuine question

It's not that it's ok, it's simply the fact that a black person reacting very strongly and angrily to someone talking about his skin color is more understandable than if it was the case with a white person.
This is a sensitive issue still and if some black people react like that, they should be understood. Different races react to equivalent words very differently

 

[mancan92]

Ok, I tried. You carry on

What do you mean you tried? You asked the question. Is it that you don't like the truth of the answer?

 

[Zlatan 7]

The two are not the same because of the historical connotations of the terms.

Regardless, for me personally, I would prefer to move away from any descriptors using colour. Particularly when talking in a professional context.

If humanity had a different history, one in which the dominant global cultures didn't just spend the last few hundreds years importing black Africans by their millions from one continent to others to be used as slaves and racism didn't still exist, then sure, go ahead.

That world doesnt exist though so until we even get to something resembling proper equality, then I'd prefer to avoid it.

Ok, fair enough and thanks for your explanation of it, I can see that and it’s understandable.

I’m at the point where yes I can see a descriptor may cause offence because of the past use of the word, but at the same time it’s pretty much a fact that our eyes see and would use to identify someone.
im sure I’ve seen people of colour mock others who say they don’t see colour so it’s just pretty confusing and we’re heading to a place where it’s better to just keep your mouth shut and not converse.

I don’t know so I’ll stay out of it

 

[Siorac]

To be clear, I wasn't saying you were defending the official, I was talking about posters in general.

What I've noticed from some posters (again, not you) whilst using this particular anglophone sphere defence is to pretend that we're imposing English cultural norms on (insert a particular Southern or Eastern European, South American, East or South East Asian) cultures while they're just doing something they do in their culture. Even if that particular action or comments are demonstrably offensive or racist themselves. Its nonsense.

To counteract that particular point, you had South American posters in the Cavani thread (again, I do not think Cavani had any racist intent AT ALL to what he said) pretend that this was some European imperialism against the South Americans, who don't see race or have racism in their continent.

I see that attitude online quite a bit: "these Americans and Brits always obsessed with race; where I'm from no one cares about the colour of your skin" and it's almost always blatantly disingenuous, admittedly.

But there were a couple of posters in that Cavani thread who suggested that he shouldn't use that word even when talking to his own friends in the UK (not on instagram but in person). And that rubs me the wrong way because it's very close to the "this is England, speak English" attitude. This, admittedly, has very little to do with our new favourite Romanian referee and much more to do with Caf posters.

When it comes to cultural norms in this particular case, I don't think they're all that relevant. The average Romanian is probably not all that different to the average Hungarian (despite what dimwitted far-right nationalists in either country might try to sell you) and I can testify that the average Hungarian wouldn't see a problem with saying "the black guy" in this context. But this is not an average Romanian we're talking about, it's a FIFA referee so it's reasonable to expect him to know better. I don't think it's a heinous offence and I think calls for long bans are totally out of whack - he should just admit that he shouldn't have done it and he'll be mindful of it in the future.

 

[Zlatan 7]

It's not that it's ok, it's simply the fact that a black person reacting very strongly and angrily to someone talking about his skin color is more understandable than if it was the case with a white person.
This is a sensitive issue still and if some black people react like that, they should be understood. Different races react to equivalent words very differently

Ok I agree with that but I don’t think it’s what I asked the poster.

 

[mancan92]

Ok, fair enough and thanks for your explanation of it, I can see that and it’s understandable.

I’m at the point where yes I can see a descriptor may cause offence because of the past use of the word, but at the same time it’s pretty much a fact that our eyes see and would use to identify someone.
im sure I’ve seen people of colour mock others who say they don’t see colour so it’s just pretty confusing and we’re heading to a place where it’s better to just keep your mouth shut and not converse.

I don’t know so I’ll stay out of it

I do understand this. What I say to all of the people who ask me as a black man is we all know our friends and have relationships with them so whatever you say to each other you will know how to feel.

But out in public just have a quick think before you speak and little compassion and you will be totally fine. The problem only comes when compassion is not there.

 

[Zlatan 7]

What do you mean you tried? You asked the question. Is it that you don't like the truth of the answer?

You didn’t answer anything

 

[Berbaclass]

I see that attitude online quite a bit: "these Americans and Brits always obsessed with race; where I'm from no one cares about the colour of your skin" and it's almost always blatantly disingenuous, admittedly.

But there were a couple of posters in that Cavani thread who suggested that he shouldn't use that word even when talking to his own friends in the UK (not on instagram but in person). And that rubs me the wrong way because it's very close to the "this is England, speak English" attitude. This, admittedly, has very little to do with our new favourite Romanian referee and much more to do with Caf posters.

When it comes to cultural norms in this particular case, I don't think they're all that relevant. The average Romanian is probably not all that different to the average Hungarian (despite what dimwitted far-right nationalists in either country might try to sell you) and I can testify that the average Hungarian wouldn't see a problem with saying "the black guy" in this context. But this is not an average Romanian we're talking about, it's a FIFA referee so it's reasonable to expect him to know better. I don't think it's a heinous offence and I think calls for long bans are totally out of whack - he should just admit that he shouldn't have done it and he'll be mindful of it in the future.

Yeah I agree with you on that. I think it's a case of being unprofessional. I don't believe he was acting deliberately racist but absolutely agree he should not be using the word in the way he did. I understand the reaction from the Istanbul bench but at the same time it's also disappointing that they chose to respond with an actual racist comment.

 

[OutlawGER]

Yep 100% uefa should be seriously looking into this.

While "the black one" is at least debatable, the "Romanians are seen as gypsies in our country" sentence is clearly racist and deserves an own thread imo.