Rafael | Lyon Player

[finneh]

The complete opposite is true. Was hyped up by most people on here as the best right back in the league but the vast majority of opposition fans didn't rate him at all. I would struggle to think of any player in our squad more regularly and persistently over-rated by his own fans. And that's coming from someone who really liked him as a player.

Most opposition fans didn't rate him for the same reason they didn't rate De Gea until the evidence was so strong to the contrary that only an idiot could not rate him. Lazy statements that were dealt to De Gea years after they stopped being true "can't deal with crosses", or "gets muscled out easily", just like the lazy statements against Rafael "red card waiting to happen", or "he's one brain fart from costing you the game". Unfortunately most opposition fans don't rate a (particularly young) player until they become consistently good for a lengthy period of time, so as to completely dispel any negative statements.

Likewise this is the case with the "experts" on TV, who spout aged nonsense as a substitute for their inability to be insightful. The same pundits were championing Valencia as "Mr Reliable who'll always give you 7/10" even when he was deep into an absolutely horrendous period of 3/10 performances week in, week out (before being turned into a RB).

Rafael completely dispelled the negative tags that were associated with him as a young player (that he was anything other than a great full back) by the end of the 12/13 season, where alongside Carrick he was our second best player (after RVP) and alongside Zabaleta was the best RB in the League. Anyone that watched him throughout that season could say nothing about him other than that injuries have halted his progress as a potentially World Class right back.

 

[Amar__]

I suppose that having a list of injuries Rafael's had during his time here he simply figured out that water is wet. I have no idea how you've come up with idea that LVG 'doesn't like the guy'.

I can understand that injuries played the part, as I said. However, I can't understand that he didn't want to use him once later in the season when he was fit, and our attacking play from RB/Valencia was shit(he was far from great defensively too). At the same time we played some players like Blackett, or even Evans who were far worse than Rafael(Evans was probably worse even injury wise).

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Most opposition fans didn't rate him for the same reason they didn't rate De Gea until the evidence was so strong to the contrary that only an idiot could not rate him. Lazy statements that were dealt to De Gea years after they stopped being true "can't deal with crosses", or "gets muscled out easily", just like the lazy statements against Rafael "red card waiting to happen", or "he's one brain fart from costing you the game". Unfortunately most opposition fans don't rate a (particularly young) player until they become consistently good for a lengthy period of time, so as to completely dispel any negative statements.

Likewise this is the case with the "experts" on TV, who spout aged nonsense as a substitute for their inability to be insightful. The same pundits were championing Valencia as "Mr Reliable who'll always give you 7/10" even when he was deep into an absolutely horrendous period of 3/10 performances week in, week out (before being turned into a RB).

Rafael completely dispelled the negative tags that were associated with him as a young player (that he was anything other than a great full back) by the end of the 12/13 season, where alongside Carrick he was our second best player (after RVP). Anyone that watched him throughout that season could say nothing about him other than that injuries had halted the progress of a potentially World Class right back.

If only all those fans stopped watching him at the end of the 12/13 season, eh?

 

[shamans]

I thought the twins were going to own the flanks for years

 

[finneh]

If only all those fans stopped watching him at the end of the 12/13 season, eh?

The fact that Falcao is now useless doesn't automatically mean he was overrated at Atletico Madrid.

 

[Ole's_toe_poke]

Basically, too many fitness issues have caused him to stall in his development. Plus we'd never be able to achieve a steady back four with him.

Right decision.

 

[ChrisNelson]

I'm genuinely surprised by the love for Rafael on here. Each to their own obviously, as I'm sure there are players I rate that others on here probably don't. I had 11 notifications in total for my comment below:

On the contrary to all the popular opinions, may I offer to drive Rafael to his next club please just to make sure he goes. Biggest liability to wear a United shirt in the last 10 years. I usually refer to him as a walking red card nowadays, just bracing myself for the bad decisions he makes a living out of. Hopefully in Darmian we will see a much more responsible player

Which is fine, that's what the forum is all about. But no matter what you think, the above is not wrong, it's simply an opinion. An opinion based on having watched United constantly for 27 years and coming to the conclusion that Rafael is just a very mediocre player. I simply feel I have to watch him with my hands partly covering my face because a face palm moment is just around the corner. No hard feelings to the guy I'm sure he will find another club and put in a 'decent' shift, he just isn't what I'm looking for in a United right back.

 

[ChrisNelson]

Have Southampton replaced Clyne yet - if not that could be a good move for him

A move there for Bertrand to replace Shaw seemed to breath new life in to him, may be the same for Rafael

 

[Nights]

wouldn't it actually be the other way round, since if it was really rose-tinted Darmian would be more highly rated.

He stayed fit for a long time last season but the manager preferred not to use him, it is not his fault

I'm saying that it seems the longer Rafa is out, the better he becomes - at least according to the resident experts on the caf.

I love him as a player, and if he'd managed to stay injury free, I'm sure he'd be our first choice right back.

The fact is though, injuries have really blighted his progress. And if the manager chooses not to use him, there has to be a reason behind it, either he's not training well, or he can't adapt to the system. Either way, that's on him.

 

[devilish]

People who have never rated him coming out the woodwork on here ain't they.

This is a wrong decision in my opinion unless the medics have advised us that he'll probably never stay fit but given his injuries were never localised it seems unlikely. The lad was simply one of our better players most seasons and without the injuries will be one of the best.

It'll be Jones next no doubt, just as injury prone and he's shown much less form.

I once rated him. In matter of fact I thought that he would be a much better full back than Gaz was, the only right back to actually claim Irwin's place. However you cant deny reality. The boy had never learnt not to be rash in his game and is prone to spend ridiculous amount of time in the treatment room because of it.

We all like United to develop youths however ultimately we're a top club and not a nursery, a retirement home, a funny place for a funny players or a clinic. If a player fails to deliver the good year in year out than he's out irrespective if he's a homegrown talent, the manager's favourite pet, a great servant of the club etc. I am glad we finally have a manager with that line of thought

 

[Red_toad]

I once rated him. In matter of fact I thought that he would be a much better full back than Gaz was, the only right back to actually claim Irwin's place. However you cant deny reality. The boy had never learnt not to be rash in his game and is prone to spend ridiculous amount of time in the treatment room because of it.

We all like United to develop youths however ultimately we're a top club and not a nursery, a retirement home, a funny place for a funny players or a clinic. If a player fails to deliver the good year in year out than he's out irrespective if he's a homegrown talent, the manager's favourite pet, a great servant of the club etc. I am glad we finally have a manager with that line of thought

Take the sentiment out of the game & what's the point? Fans get attached to certain players, it's part & parcel of the game. Lad is a very good player when fit & wanted to stay & try to win a place in the team. I doubt he's on a massive wage & would rather see him fill in at right back over Valencia or Jones....

 

[devilish]

Take the sentiment out of the game & what's the point? Fans get attached to certain players, it's part & parcel of the game. Lad is a very good player when fit & wanted to stay & try to win a place in the team. I doubt he's on a massive wage & would rather see him fill in at right back over Valencia or Jones....

I am attached to the club not to players. There was a time when we used to say that no one is bigger than the club. Its time to start implementing it

 

[stevoc]

I'm genuinely surprised by the love for Rafael on here. Each to their own obviously, as I'm sure there are players I rate that others on here probably don't. I had 11 notifications in total for my comment below:



Which is fine, that's what the forum is all about. But no matter what you think, the above is not wrong, it's simply an opinion. An opinion based on having watched United constantly for 27 years and coming to the conclusion that Rafael is just a very mediocre player. I simply feel I have to watch him with my hands partly covering my face because a face palm moment is just around the corner. No hard feelings to the guy I'm sure he will find another club and put in a 'decent' shift, he just isn't what I'm looking for in a United right back.

Everyone has their opinions on certain players to varying degree's that's natural. But when you share a view of one on a forum and an extreme one at that, and as you say get 11 notifications strongly disagreeing with you then it's a fair bet your opinion is maybe too extreme and possibly wrong.

That's a good thing about forums it helps you guage your own views on things like football, you could think a player is the best in the world but if no one else on a forum agrees then they most probably aren't. If we never discussed football with anyone else we would probably all rate certain players a lot better/worse than they actually are.

 

[RedRonaldo]

I'm genuinely surprised by the love for Rafael on here. Each to their own obviously, as I'm sure there are players I rate that others on here probably don't. I had 11 notifications in total for my comment below:



Which is fine, that's what the forum is all about. But no matter what you think, the above is not wrong, it's simply an opinion. An opinion based on having watched United constantly for 27 years and coming to the conclusion that Rafael is just a very mediocre player. I simply feel I have to watch him with my hands partly covering my face because a face palm moment is just around the corner. No hard feelings to the guy I'm sure he will find another club and put in a 'decent' shift, he just isn't what I'm looking for in a United right back.

Too rash? A bit of headless chicken? I understand where you come from though, he never look like a complete package, abit out of place at times, but he isn't that bad either. Seems full of passion and his attacking run is not bad at all.

 

[ChrisNelson]

Everyone has their opinions on certain players to varying degree's that's natural. But when you share a view one on a forum and an extreme one at that, and as you say get 11 notifications strongly disagreeing with you then it's a fair bet your opinion is maybe too extreme and possibly wrong.

That's a good thing about forums it helps you guage your own views on things like football, you could think a player is the best in the world but if no one else on a forum agrees then they most probably aren't. If we never discussed football with anyone else we would probably all rate certain players a lot better/worse than they actually are.

I only got 11 notifications because people rarely respond to posts they agree with, only ones they don't - which is why people are always arguing on here!
I know a number of fellow United fans who will be glad to see the back of him, none of us think he's the worst player to pull on a United shirt but the decision to replace him is correct without a doubt IMO.

 

[Amar__]

none of us think he's the worst player to pull on a United shirt

This is not far from that tbf:

Biggest liability to wear a United shirt in the last 10 years.

 

[Barca84]

I'm genuinely surprised by the love for Rafael on here. Each to their own obviously, as I'm sure there are players I rate that others on here probably don't. I had 11 notifications in total for my comment below:



Which is fine, that's what the forum is all about. But no matter what you think, the above is not wrong, it's simply an opinion. An opinion based on having watched United constantly for 27 years and coming to the conclusion that Rafael is just a very mediocre player. I simply feel I have to watch him with my hands partly covering my face because a face palm moment is just around the corner. No hard feelings to the guy I'm sure he will find another club and put in a 'decent' shift, he just isn't what I'm looking for in a United right back.

No you're not on your own with this one Chris. Plenty of folk have long held reservations about his ability including myself and invariably on here you got attacked for expressing it. I can understand people liking him as an individual but I see what you see and him being shipped out simply makes me more confident that we are heading in the right direction

Everyone has their opinions on certain players to varying degree's that's natural. But when you share a view of one on a forum and an extreme one at that, and as you say get 11 notifications strongly disagreeing with you then it's a fair bet your opinion is maybe too extreme and possibly wrong.

But then again you get plenty of folk like myself who simply agree with the sentiment and don't feel the need to post and say so.

Rafael has always polarised fans re his ability but not for much longer it seems.

 

[stevoc]

I only got 11 notifications because people rarely respond to posts they agree with, only ones they don't - which is why people are always arguing on here!
I know a number of fellow United fans who will be glad to see the back of him, none of us think he's the worst player to pull on a United shirt but the decision to replace him is correct without a doubt IMO.

Plenty of people quote each other on here to agree with someone, you only have to look at the player bashing threads. Loads of muppets agreeing with each other about the same nonsense every week.

Whether it's the right decision for him to leave or not is irrelevant, your post wasn't about whether he should leave or not. It was total hyperbole bordering on the ridiculous, a player who has only been sent off 3 times in his career is not a walking red card come on.

 

[Black Adder]

You can't count on him being healthy and that's the main reason he's going to get sold.

You can have all the talent in the world (and he does) but if manager can't count on you being fit for more than just few matches then it's no wonder he's been told to go.

I like Rafael, really thought he would be our first choice RB for the years to come, but with him it's always injurie waiting to happen and no wonder club decided to end that cooperation.

Wish him all the best whenever he goes, he's still decent player that can make good career for himself, shame he didn't make it here, had all the tools but and the same time was so unlucky.

 

[stevoc]

But then again you get plenty of folk like myself who simply agree with the sentiment and don't feel the need to post and say so.

Rafael has always polarised fans re his ability but not for much longer it seems.

Everyone will have their own opinions on every player.

But do you personally share the view that Rafael is the biggest liability to play for United and a walking red card despite only getting sent off 3 times in his career?

 

[ChrisNelson]

Plenty of people quote each other on here to agree with someone, you only have to look at the player bashing threads. Loads of muppets agreeing with each other about the same nonsense every week.

Whether it's the right decision for him to leave or not is irrelevant, your post wasn't about whether he should leave or not. It was total hyperbole bordering on the ridiculous, a player who has only been sent off 3 times in his career is not a walking red card come on.

How he's only been sent off 3 times absolutely staggers me. Ok let me put it this way, I simply don't trust him because he's too rash and now we're back in the Champions League I'd like to see us play a bit more responsibly and he would be flying in to the opposition thinking he's immune from being sent off. And what would the continental winger do? Triple somersault. It's about not giving them the opportunity to do this - Rafael does far too often. There's only Rafael out of all the defenders that I don't trust to make the right decision in 1v1's. Ok the rest of them might not be perfect but I trust their heads are in the right place.
Same with Scholes, his inability to tackle got laughed off for years. But was it really funny? A centre mid that can't tackle? Fortunately his all 'round game more than made up for it!

 

[That'sHernandez]

I'd have kept him as cover at right back because one of those toy horse heads on a stick, propped up against the corner flag, is better than Antiono Valencia at right back.

 

[ChrisNelson]

This is not far from that tbf:

When I say liability I mean from a disciplinary point of view, he plays far too on the edge. When I say he's not the worst I'm talking about footballing ability - left wingers won't just walk around him, he's not that bad. From and out and out quality point of view there's plenty of others that fall shorter than him.

 

[stevoc]

How he's only been sent off 3 times absolutely staggers me.

Maybe he's been a bit lucky but he is a better defender than he's given credit for, in a similar period Vidic got sent off 6 times to put Rafael's record into perspective.

Ok let me put it this way, I simply don't trust him because he's too rash and now we're back in the Champions League I'd like to see us play a bit more responsibly and he would be flying in to the opposition thinking he's immune from being sent off. And what would the continental winger do? Triple somersault. It's about not giving them the opportunity to do this - Rafael does far too often. There's only Rafael out of all the defenders that I don't trust to make the right decision in 1v1's. Ok the rest of them might not be perfect but I trust their heads are in the right place.
Same with Scholes, his inability to tackle got laughed off for years. But was it really funny? A centre mid that can't tackle? Fortunately his all 'round game more than made up for it!

Fair enough that's a much more reasonable opinion on him than the one you shared yesterday.

While i don't necessarily agree 100% i can see where you are coming from now, he is very gung ho which is also probably the reason he is so popular with so many supporters but not so much with LVG who i think prefers his fullbacks to be similar to how you like them.

 

[Verminator]

If we're getting shut of him because of injuries, how did Jones get a new contract?

 

[Robbie Boy]

The complete opposite is true. Was hyped up by most people on here as the best right back in the league but the vast majority of opposition fans didn't rate him at all. I would struggle to think of any player in our squad more regularly and persistently over-rated by his own fans. And that's coming from someone who really liked him as a player.

Agree here. I like him as a player and he's always given his all but he's overrated beyond belief on here and not rated at all by oppo fans. He's one of those players on here with a **** following that gets very overrated due to people's undying love for him. When people say "he's my favourite player at the club" - it's obvious their judgements on him will be one sided and biased. He enjoyed one very good season, I'll give him that. He's like Nani with his hardcore following but without the divisiveness.

He's a good lad by all accounts and I wish him well. Just don't get all the grief on here.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

If we're getting shut of him because of injuries, how did Jones get a new contract?

Because he's a younger, better player with huge potential.

 

[Smores]

Everyone will have their own opinions on every player.

But do you personally share the view that Rafael is the biggest liability to play for United and a walking red card despite only getting sent off 3 times in his career?

It's because opinions get formed easily and rarely changed. I can see why opposition fans might think he's rash after watching a select few games but after watching every game I'm suprised it's even a minority opinion on here.

Only criticism I'd lay on Rafael was he was too short.

Anyway people seem to rate Valencia as a right back, it's a funny old world

 

[Pogue Mahone]

It's because opinions get formed easily and rarely changed. I can see why opposition fans might think he's rash after watching a select few games but after watching every game I'm suprised it's even a minority opinion on here.

Only criticism I'd lay on Rafael was he was too short.

Anyway people seem to rate Valencia as a right back, it's a funny old world

When the bloke who earns a shit-load of cash to manage this football club - and spends every day training with the two players concerned - obviously shares the same opinions, they might not be as outlandish as you think,

 

[Smores]

Because he's a younger, better player with huge potential.

Better than Rafael? During what period has he been superior or shown more potential?

I honestly fail to see how a critic of Rafael could be fond of Jones who comes with the exact same problems.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Better than Rafael? During what period has he been superior or shown more potential?

I honestly fail to see how a critic of Rafael could be fond of Jones who comes with the exact same problems.

He hasn't had a consistently great season like Rafael did in 2012/13 but - IMO - for his age, he's a better player. When he has been good he's been really outstanding. I rate Jones very highly, though. I know not everyone on here does.

 

[Amar__]

He hasn't had a consistently great season like Rafael did in 2012/13 but - IMO - for his age, he's a better player. When he has been good he's been really outstanding. I rate Jones very highly, though. I know not everyone on here does.

No, he's not.

Not only that season, but season before that(or was it two seasons before that?) Rafael also had a very good season. Many people were saying that him and Ivanovic were the two most in form fullbacks in league up to January/February. Jones was never one of our best CBs, let alone close to being one of league's best.

Jones barely ever had, or actually played 5 impressive games in a row without injurying himself.

 

[Smores]

When the bloke who earns a shit-load of cash to manage this football club - and spends every day training with the two players concerned - obviously shares the same opinions, they might not be as outlandish as you think,

Deferring to the authority is a very lazy justification of an opinion, a flawed one at that considering the previous two managers thought the opposite.

Regarding your other response. I also rate Jones but I fail to see how one could find fault in Rafael for being injury prone, rash, liable to booking but then excuse Jones for the same.

Hopefully our new RB will be of such a high standard that such discussions aren't necessary. If Rafael does depart I'd like to think our fans would recognise and appreciate his contributions to a greater extent than this thread demonstrates, the lad doesn't deserve his reputation being relegated to the low levels of an Anderson.

 

[Verminator]

Because he's a younger, better player with huge potential.

Disagree with this. Jones sells himself usually by running past the play. He consistently overruns the ball, then dives in recklessly. More injury prone, usually self - inflicted.
We all have our right to an opinion though.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Deferring to the authority is a very lazy justification of an opinion, a flawed one at that considering the previous two managers thought the opposite.

Regarding your other response. I also rate Jones but I fail to see how one could find fault in Rafael for being injury prone, rash, liable to booking but then excuse Jones for the same.

Hopefully our new RB will be of such a high standard that such discussions aren't necessary. If Rafael does depart I'd like to think our fans would recognise and appreciate his contributions to a greater extent than this thread demonstrates, the lad doesn't deserve his reputation being relegated to the low levels of an Anderson.

That's not happening. Not even close. This thread is full of almost unanimous praise, with a tiny minority saying he maybe had some flaws in his game. The Anderson thread is the exact opposite.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

If we're getting shut of him because of injuries, how did Jones get a new contract?

Well, it probably ain't JUST the injuries. If LVG was confident Rafael would outgrow his injury problems AND thought the world of him as a player, then he'd want to keep him, obviously.

Plus, we don't know what advice LVG has been getting from the medical people. Both players are made of glass from our perspective - but the nature of their respective injury proneness could be very different.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Comparisons to the Ando thread because some posters are trying to put a bit of context on things

 

[Red_toad]

I am attached to the club not to players. There was a time when we used to say that no one is bigger than the club. Its time to start implementing it

How do you support a club with no players? We're you never a child who's hero's pulled on the United shirt? Sentiment is still part of the game, can still remember meeting Robbo a few years back & was in awe of the bloke. He was very injury prone, but what a player when he was fit, wonder if the Caf was around back in the day, how many would slate him for putting his body on the line for the good of the team?
Didn't state anyone was bigger than the club, just that Raf is a worthy addition to the squad based on his ability. He's not on a huge contract & is willing to fight for a place. In addition to being a real character, every club needs its characters.

 

[Red_toad]

If Rafael does depart I'd like to think our fans would recognise and appreciate his contributions to a greater extent than this thread demonstrates, the lad doesn't deserve his reputation being relegated to the low levels of an Anderson.

Agree fully, but a fair section of our fans have very short memories.

 

[BennyBlanco]

We're not getting rid due to injuries, we're clearly getting rid because Van Gaal thinks he's not disciplined enough to play his system, which I 100% agree with.
Why are people so upset suddenly over this, he's been a dead man walking at the club for several months, personally I can't wait until we move on.