Rafael | Lyon Player

[fallengt]

Also, talking about tradition nonsense. I fail to see how Louis willing to give Evans chance after chance, because he came through rank? because he's British? Guess what Rafael is home-grown too and nationality is irrelevant.
Rafael barely played and had a bad season but seriously, Was it as bad as Jonny (to some extent, Backett and few others) ? Bloody no. Assuming Darmian is an auto-starter, If Rafael willing to fight for his 2nd choice RB place with Tony fecking Valencia and McNair, I don't see what the point getting rid of him here. It's not like he's on huge wage nor we will get crap load money from selling him.

 

[Ole's_toe_poke]

If Rafael does depart I'd like to think our fans would recognise and appreciate his contributions to a greater extent than this thread demonstrates,

170 games in 7 years. He's hardly been integral.

 

[SirBobbysCombover]

One of the most overrated full backs in all my time watching United, decision making really let the lad down, unfortunately never seemed to learn from previous mistakes. A big shame as I thought he would go on to be a leading right back in world football, after that Bayern game and consecutive seasons after, it seemed he would never reach the heights once set out for him and his twin brother.

 

[sajeev]

170 games in 7 years. He's hardly been integral.

he was our second-best player, the last time we won the league.

and till november of Moyes season, he along with Rooney & De Gea were the only ones proving themselves worthy of the shirt.

Even previous to 2012/13, he was a key part of the team. We played much better when he played, as simple as that

 

[Ole's_toe_poke]

Even previous to 2012/13, he was a key part of the team

Not really. In 12/13 he played 40 games and he did well. Other than that the maximum apperances he's managed is 28. That's not the appearance record of a key player. He wasn't the difference between us winning things and not winning things IMO. That's how I'd define a key player.

People liked his style because he is energetic and shows 'passion'. But in reality he could be rash and brainless. Anyway, his injury record itself made him a liability. He couldn't be relied upon to play 4 or 5 games in a row except for the one season.

 

[BennyBlanco]

It's worse when you consider during those appearances, both Fabio & Rafael were never reliable to complete the full 90, my lingering memory of the guy will be him getting up slowly off the ground around the 60-70 minute mark, looking dazed and confused and being subbed off.

 

[Sied]

Also, talking about tradition nonsense. I fail to see how Louis willing to give Evans chance after chance, because he came through rank? because he's British? Guess what Rafael is home-grown too and nationality is irrelevant.
Rafael barely played and had a bad season but seriously, Was it as bad as Jonny (to some extent, Backett and few others) ? Bloody no. Assuming Darmian is an auto-starter, If Rafael willing to fight for his 2nd choice RB place with Tony fecking Valencia and McNair, I don't see what the point getting rid of him here. It's not like he's on huge wage nor we will get crap load money from selling him.

Because we don't need 3 dedicated right backs and Rafael will want to play. It makes no sense for either party for him to stay on.

This thread ties in with the ruthless LVG thread for me. My heart wants rafael to stay, but my head knows LVG is making the right decision.

 

[ravelston]

Deferring to the authority is a very lazy justification of an opinion, a flawed one at that considering the previous two managers thought the opposite.

Regarding your other response. I also rate Jones but I fail to see how one could find fault in Rafael for being injury prone, rash, liable to booking but then excuse Jones for the same.

Hopefully our new RB will be of such a high standard that such discussions aren't necessary. If Rafael does depart I'd like to think our fans would recognise and appreciate his contributions to a greater extent than this thread demonstrates, the lad doesn't deserve his reputation being relegated to the low levels of an Anderson.

Kind of flies in the face of the facts. In his four seasons at United, Jones has started 25 more games than Rafael. If you exclude 2012-13, when he was essentially the backup to an excellent (and mostly fit) Rafael, the starts are Jones (93) and Rafael (50). This while, for most of the period, Rafael was first choice and Jones was a backup.

As for bookings, Jones averages about one every seven games - almost identical to Terry's average for the last seven years - and he's never been sent off. Rafael averages one every five games - high for a full back - and has had three reds. There's not really any comparison.

[Edit: Don't get me wrong - I like Rafael, don't understand why Valencia was preferred last season and hoped he would get a chance to win his place back this season. Darmian put paid to that so, if he wants to get his career back on track, leaving is the best thing he can do. I'll be sad to see him go - one of my favourite players.]

 

[finneh]

No, he's not.

Not only that season, but season before that(or was it two seasons before that?) Rafael also had a very good season. Many people were saying that him and Ivanovic were the two most in form fullbacks in league up to January/February. Jones was never one of our best CBs, let alone close to being one of league's best.

Jones barely ever had, or actually played 5 impressive games in a row without injurying himself.

To be honest I think it's just a question of age. I think if Rafael were still 23 we'd probably give him a new 3 year deal and try to get the best out of him. The fact that he's now 25 and is still struggling with injuries means the club are more likely to let him leave.

Likewise if by Summer 2017 Jones is still constantly getting injured I imagine he'll be allowed to leave. There's no question which of the two have shown greater potential in their time here though, and it isn't the Englishman.

 

[POF]

So much nonsense in this thread. Amazing how many's opinions of him are still influenced by the Munich game. It was five years ago!

Rafael leaving in this manner really shows the huge benefits United have had from the continuity under Fergie. Van Gaal clearly just doesn't like Rafael's style of play. It happens. Some managers just don't rate certain types of player. When you have changes of manager it means certain fan favourites will leave the club. It's sad but it will now happen more and more at United.

 

[Robbie Boy]

he was our second-best player, the last time we won the league.

I'm sorry but this blatantly isn't true. Carrick, De Gea and Rio were all better. He wasn't even the best RB in the league that season, even though it was by fat his best for us.

 

[Verminator]

Because we don't need 3 dedicated right backs and Rafael will want to play. It makes no sense for either party for him to stay on.

This thread ties in with the ruthless LVG thread for me. My heart wants rafael to stay, but my head knows LVG is making the right decision.

For all my defending him against some of the mud slinging, I think you are right, but we have learnt nothing from our left back situation last year.
If Darmian gets hurt or struggles, I have to watch Valencia there again.

 

[2mufc0]

I'm neutral about him leaving, wouldn't mind him staying but wouldn't be too bothered if he left either.

One thing that always annoyed me about him is that he never learned from his mistakes, all the rash tackles and stupid yellow cards he would just do them over and over again, would also make stupid challenges in the most unnecessary situations and whenever he got a yellow you were always worried that he would get sent off eventually. Maybe this and his injury record made LVG discard him.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Why are people so upset suddenly over this, he's been a dead man walking at the club for several months, personally I can't wait until we move on.

People love the wee bugger. Which is good to see, actually - I don't blame them for having become emotionally attached to a player like him.

Rationally, though, the arguments seem to be lacking to a great extent. "He was one of our better players in a campaign several years ago" doesn't really cut it.

Besides, there's the LVG factor. People may not like it, but if a player isn't suited to the system, what can you do? Get rid of LVG? Yes, in theory he could stay and fight for a place - but that isn't realism talking. It's perfectly obvious why Valencia (clearly a worse right back in many a sense) is a much more plausible man to keep around.

 

[Kaos]

If anything we should be applauding LVG for trying to build his own team, if Rafael isn't part of that vision then tough titties.

 

[finneh]

I'm sorry but this blatantly isn't true. Carrick, De Gea and Rio were all better. He wasn't even the best RB in the league that season, even though it was by fat his best for us.

Rafael and Zabaleta both had great campaigns. The difference was that Zabaleta was City's best player by far that year, whereas everyone in our squad was in RVP's shadow; so naturally he stood out more. For me Rafael outperformed him, but I can understand if people think Zabaleta was slightly better.

In terms of Rio/Carrick for me that season had far less to do with our defensive solidarity, it was much more to do with how we were going forward. We outscored City by 20 goals, but conceded 9 more. It sounds bizarre to say it for a full back but Rafael was comfortably our second most important attacking player after RVP in my opinion.

The only reason that I could understand people giving more credit to Carrick would be because he had Cleverley next to him; which made his job much more difficult.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Rafael and Zabaleta both had great campaigns. The difference was that Zabaleta was City's best player by far that year, whereas everyone in our squad was in RVP's shadow; so naturally he stood out more. For me Rafael outperformed him, but I can understand if people think Zabaleta was slightly better.

In terms of Rio/Carrick for me that season had far less to do with our defensive solidarity, it was much more to do with how we were going forward. We outscored City by 20 goals, but conceded 9 more. It sounds bizarre to say it for a full back but Rafael was comfortably our second most important attacking player after RVP in my opinion.

The only reason that I could understand people giving more credit to Carrick would be because he had Cleverley next to him; which made his job much more difficult.

Well they all made the PFA team of the year ahead of him. Rafael was excellent that season but Zabaleta was better, IMO. The main reason we won the league that season was obviously RvP and our brilliant defence was slightly on the wane but Rio had an outstanding season.

 

[ravelston]

No, he's not.

Not only that season, but season before that(or was it two seasons before that?) Rafael also had a very good season. Many people were saying that him and Ivanovic were the two most in form fullbacks in league up to January/February. Jones was never one of our best CBs, let alone close to being one of league's best.

Jones barely ever had, or actually played 5 impressive games in a row without injurying himself.

The season before (2011-12) Rafael only started 10 PL games (15 total). The season before that he started 15 (25). He may have been impressive when fit, but he wasn't fit very often.

Jones was rated best U23 CB in Europe by Opta, and the best CB in the PL by Opta and whoscored. Now we all know that stats based rankings are meaningless (unless they confirm our prejudices) but, still, he must be doing something right.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Rafael and Zabaleta both had great campaigns. The difference was that Zabaleta was City's best player by far that year, whereas everyone in our squad was in RVP's shadow; so naturally he stood out more. For me Rafael outperformed him, but I can understand if people think Zabaleta was slightly better.

In terms of Rio/Carrick for me that season had far less to do with our defensive solidarity, it was much more to do with how we were going forward. We outscored City by 20 goals, but conceded 9 more. It sounds bizarre to say it for a full back but Rafael was comfortably our second most important attacking player after RVP in my opinion.

The only reason that I could understand people giving more credit to Carrick would be because he had Cleverley next to him; which made his job much more difficult.

Sorry but that's bananas. To appreciate how important Carrick was in that season all you needed to do was pay attention to the games when you watched them. Himself and RvP were the stand-out performers. Head and shoulders above the rest. Similarly, if you seriously think that Carrick's contribution can only be judged in the goals against column, you really need to pay more attention.

 

[finneh]

Well they all made the PFA team ahead of him. Rafael was excellent that season but Zabaleta was better, IMO. The main reason we won the league that season was obviously RvP and our brilliant defence was slightly on the wane but Rio had an outstanding season.

They did not make the team of the year ahead of him. They made the team of the year ahead of other central defenders and midfielders, of which there were very few good ones that year. The fact that Vertonghen was the other central defender probably tells you all you need to know about the state of defending during that campaign. Likewise there were no other central midfielders that performed particularly well that year either, highlighted by the fact that Mata was in the team... in central midfield.

A comparison I'd give is Courtois this season. He was very, very good and it's arguable that he was actually the best; however the fact that De Gea stood out so much meant Courtois didn't stand a chance. It doesn't mean Courtois had a worse season than Cahill, I'm sure every Chelsea fan would admit he was far superior; but had far better competition.

Sorry but that's bananas. To appreciate how important Carrick was in that season all you needed to do was pay attention to the games when you watched them. Himself and RvP were the stand-out performers. Head and shoulders above the rest. Similarly, if you seriously think that Carrick's contribution can only be judged in the goals against column, you really need to pay more attention.

I disagree that he was a stand-out performer alongside RVP. Van Persie was several echelons above both of them and then Carrick/Rafael were quite similar in putting in consistent 8/10 performances every week. Also, no-one is saying his only contribution was defensive.

Again I can understand people rating Carrick higher, because his job was more difficult with Cleverley next to him. However my belief is that Rafael had a greater impact offensively and that's what won us the league in the end. It's certainly worthy of a debate though, if RVP was a 10 that year Rafael/Carrick were both an 8 or an 8.5.

 

[Robbie Boy]

They did not make the team of the year ahead of him. They made the team of the year ahead of other central defenders and midfielders, of which there were very few good ones that year. The fact that Vertonghen was the other central defender probably tells you all you need to know about the state of defending during that campaign. Likewise there were no other central midfielders that performed particularly well that year either, highlighted by the fact that Mata was in the team... in central midfield.

A comparison I'd give is Courtois this season. He was very, very good and it's arguable that he was actually the best; however the fact that De Gea stood out so much meant Courtois didn't stand a chance. It doesn't mean Courtois had a worse season than Cahill, I'm sure every Chelsea fan would admit he was far superior; but had far better competition.

To say he was difinitively our 'second best player' isn't accurate. We had better players that season. Doesn't mean Rafael wasn't excellent, as I have alluded to.

 

[Sied]

For all my defending him against some of the mud slinging, I think you are right, but we have learnt nothing from our left back situation last year.
If Darmian gets hurt or struggles, I have to watch Valencia there again.

How many of our rivals have more than 2 dedicated full backs? Fair enough if you don't rate Valencia, but teams just don't have 3 dedicated full backs for either side. 2 and a utility player is normal.

 

[devilish]

How do you support a club with no players? We're you never a child who's hero's pulled on the United shirt? Sentiment is still part of the game, can still remember meeting Robbo a few years back & was in awe of the bloke. He was very injury prone, but what a player when he was fit, wonder if the Caf was around back in the day, how many would slate him for putting his body on the line for the good of the team?
Didn't state anyone was bigger than the club, just that Raf is a worthy addition to the squad based on his ability. He's not on a huge contract & is willing to fight for a place. In addition to being a real character, every club needs its characters.

Of course I did although in the past players had to do much more than the likes of today's players to be considered as heroes and legends. Having said that the more time passes the more I understand that what truly matter is not the people at the club, most of whom are just employees who would move elsewhere for a pay rise. What truly matter is the club, the fans and what it represents. People come and go. Its the club that remains and everything must be made to make its as strong and as successful as possible

 

[Amar__]

The season before (2011-12) Rafael only started 10 PL games (15 total). The season before that he started 15 (25). He may have been impressive when fit, but he wasn't fit very often.

Jones was rated best U23 CB in Europe by Opta, and the best CB in the PL by Opta and whoscored. Now we all know that stats based rankings are meaningless (unless they confirm our prejudices) but, still, he must be doing something right.

It was 10/11 season definitely. Yes, his performances were great for half of the season and then he got that serious injury(he was hospitalized for his shoulder if I am not wrong).

He did have 29 apps in total though, which isn't that bad, he played a lot in CL, but missed a lot of games in PL.

Back then we had threads like this, so I am definitely not imagining things:
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/is-rafael-now-the-best-right-back-in-the-country.319440/

As for Jones, stats means nothing, as you said. I don't think anyone ever suggested that Jones is one of our best performers, let alone league's.

 

[Green_Red]

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[United22]

One of the most overrated full backs in all my time watching United, decision making really let the lad down, unfortunately never seemed to learn from previous mistakes. A big shame as I thought he would go on to be a leading right back in world football, after that Bayern game and consecutive seasons after, it seemed he would never reach the heights once set out for him and his twin brother.

That Bayern game was in 2010, and he produced his best ever form for us in 2012/13. There would be no complaints here if he could have maintained that 12/13 form

 

[finneh]

To say he was difinitively our 'second best player' isn't accurate. We had better players that season. Doesn't mean Rafael wasn't excellent, as I have alluded to.

I don't think anyone has said he was "definitively" our second best player. My personal opinion is that he edged it over Carrick that year. I'd say it was certainly between Carrick and Rafael though, with Rio being very solid defensively but not much more (and as I said our defensive form definitely didn't win us the league).

 

[Verminator]

How many of our rivals have more than 2 dedicated full backs? Fair enough if you don't rate Valencia, but teams just don't have 3 dedicated full backs for either side. 2 and a utility player is normal.

Not disputing that.
I agreed that it makes sense. (Valencia being more available).
It is just depressing that he is our back-up, when he offers so little going forward, or defensively.
But he will be available.

My doubt on Rafa going is that he may be over his injuries (last two were impacts).
That is all moot if VG thinks he can't do as requested.

 

[Amar__]

I don't think anyone has said he was "definitively" our second best player. My personal opinion is that he edged it over Carrick that year. I'd say it was certainly between Carrick and Rafael though, with Rio being very solid defensively but not much more (and as I said our defensive form definitely didn't win us the league).

As Fergie said it:

"I think we've got two developing players, first of all, in Rafael and David De Gea," explained Sir Alex. "They have had outstanding seasons.

"Then there is Michael Carrick and Robin van Persie. That is the four and I wouldn't like to choose between them. I think they have definitely elevated themselves this season."

 

[ravelston]

It was 10/11 season definitely. Yes, his performances were great for half of the season and then he got that serious injury(he was hospitalized for his shoulder if I am not wrong).

He did have 29 apps in total though, which isn't that bad, he played a lot in CL, but missed a lot of games in PL.

Back then we had threads like this, so I am definitely not imagining things:
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/is-rafael-now-the-best-right-back-in-the-country.319440/

As for Jones, stats means nothing, as you said. I don't think anyone ever suggested that Jones is one of our best performers, let alone league's.

Actually I have - several times. The thing about Jones is that he does sometimes look like a disaster about to happen but, if you watch him for long enough and carefully enough, you start to realise that not only do those disasters not happen, but also that he prevents a lot of other disasters from happening. He's a remarkably effective player and, in a footballing sense, a very smart one. Which of course is why he's been played in so many different positions by so many managers - not many 20 year olds would have been given the job of shutting down Spain's midfield let alone succeeding at it.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Actually I have - several times. The thing about Jones is that he does sometimes look like a disaster about to happen but, if you watch him for long enough and carefully enough, you start to realise that not only do those disasters not happen, but also that he prevents a lot of other disasters from happening. He's a remarkably effective player and, in a footballing sense, a very smart one. Which of course is why he's been played in so many different positions by so many managers - not many 20 year olds would have been given the job of shutting down Spain's midfield let alone succeeding at it.

Good post.

 

[Robbie Boy]

I don't think anyone has said he was "definitively" our second best player. My personal opinion is that he edged it over Carrick that year. I'd say it was certainly between Carrick and Rafael though, with Rio being very solid defensively but not much more (and as I said our defensive form definitely didn't win us the league).

The poster I responded to said "he was our second best player" - that's all I'm concerned about. If in your opinion he was our second best player, then all well and good. My point is that it's not conclusive and shouldn't be said in any definitive manner.

 

[Sied]

Not disputing that.
I agreed that it makes sense. (Valencia being more available).
It is just depressing that he is our back-up, when he offers so little going forward, or defensively.
But he will be available.

My doubt on Rafa going is that he may be over his injuries (last two were impacts).
That is all moot if VG thinks he can't do as requested.

Oh sorry I misunderstood. How is it similar to the left back situation then? We just got unlucky with injuries. If anything that backs up the argument for getting rid of injury prone players and keeping dependable players like Valencia.

But ye, other than that I'm not exactly Valencia's biggest fan either. Dependable just about sums him up.

 

[ravelston]

Good post.

Thanks. It's become fashionable to dismiss Jones as "stupid" and "reckless" and "a red card about to happen" and "a walking sick note" - none of which is true. He's clearly a very smart footballer who mostly knows exactly what he's doing and is capable of some exceptional improvisation when the unexpected happens. He gets injured, but no more than most other CBs, and he's never been sent off - that in itself should put paid to the reckless tag. I don't think he's a better CB than Smalling, but it's a little like comparing Vidic and Rio - they just work well together.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Thanks. It's become fashionable to dismiss Jones as "stupid" and "reckless" and "a red card about to happen" and "a walking sick note" - none of which is true. He's clearly a very smart footballer who mostly knows exactly what he's doing and is capable of some exceptional improvisation when the unexpected happens. He gets injured, but no more than most other CBs, and he's never been sent off - that in itself should put paid to the reckless tag. I don't think he's a better CB than Smalling, but it's a little like comparing Vidic and Rio - they just work well together.

Only ever conceded one penalty too.

 

[Top]

With Nani and Rafael gone and ADM looking to be out the door as well, it will be interesting to see who Pogue picks as his new target for "countering Caf hype".

Smart money is on Depay.

 

[Verminator]

T

Oh sorry I misunderstood. How is it similar to the left back situation then? We just got unlucky with injuries. If anything that backs up the argument for getting rid of injury prone players and keeping dependable players like Valencia.

But ye, other than that I'm not exactly Valencia's biggest fan either. Dependable just about sums him up.

he similarity in letting Evra go, only to have it bite us in the arse. You can't have top back ups in every position, but after Darmian, what we have is just about functional from players of other positions.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

With Nani and Rafael gone and ADM looking to be out the door as well, it will be interesting to see who Pogue picks as his new target for "countering Caf hype".

Smart money is on Depay.

You forgot to mention Anderson and Kagawa. All of which means that, whoever I pick, smart money should be on me being proved eventually right

Having said that, I never really had it in for Rafael, did I? Always been a fan of his. Just found myself sticking up for Valencia as a RB last season because he was getting a lot of (IMO) unfair stick. Rafael had clearly declined from his 2012/13 peak but I used to think he would turn things round up until fairly recently. Same was true of Nani, for a while, although he ended up stuck in the doldrums much longer.

 

[m1y2]

Most opposition fans didn't rate him for the same reason they didn't rate De Gea until the evidence was so strong to the contrary that only an idiot could not rate him. Lazy statements that were dealt to De Gea years after they stopped being true "can't deal with crosses", or "gets muscled out easily", just like the lazy statements against Rafael "red card waiting to happen", or "he's one brain fart from costing you the game". Unfortunately most opposition fans don't rate a (particularly young) player until they become consistently good for a lengthy period of time, so as to completely dispel any negative statements.

Likewise this is the case with the "experts" on TV, who spout aged nonsense as a substitute for their inability to be insightful. The same pundits were championing Valencia as "Mr Reliable who'll always give you 7/10" even when he was deep into an absolutely horrendous period of 3/10 performances week in, week out (before being turned into a RB).

Rafael completely dispelled the negative tags that were associated with him as a young player (that he was anything other than a great full back) by the end of the 12/13 season, where alongside Carrick he was our second best player (after RVP) and alongside Zabaleta was the best RB in the League. Anyone that watched him throughout that season could say nothing about him other than that injuries have halted his progress as a potentially World Class right back.

exactly

 

[Loublaze]

To be honest I think it's just a question of age. I think if Rafael were still 23 we'd probably give him a new 3 year deal and try to get the best out of him. The fact that he's now 25 and is still struggling with injuries means the club are more likely to let him leave.

Likewise if by Summer 2017 Jones is still constantly getting injured I imagine he'll be allowed to leave. There's no question which of the two have shown greater potential in their time here though, and it isn't the Englishman.

I don't believe age has anything to do with it. LVG made his mind up probably based on his injury record. Rafael's agent said that LVG told him he couldn't count on him.