Ralf Rangnick's consultancy role has been scrapped

[cyberman]

thank god we stole Martinez and Antony

Any better than going after that French kid who went to Madrid for 100m?
Most of his list had ties to Red Bull somewhere, it was like he was trying to do his friends a favour. Nkunku even after signing a new contract so another 100m plus there.
Ten Hag could have ended up being the cheaper option to that nonsense. Haaland ffs!

 

[204Red]

That’s not true now is it.

Vidic practically retired a year later.
Young was never anything special, turned out to be a better full back than he was a winger at United.
Valencia was completely ineffective as a winger by then, even in SAF’s last season, we won the league with no midfield and without wingers.
Carrick was solid still but he was literally our only midfielder.
RvP was injury prone from then on, well he’s always had injury issues throughout his Arsenal career but he was clearly bought to win us the league in SAF’s last season which he did, but it is what it is, he never hit the same highs for us in the following 2 years.
Rooney? Come on now, SAF knew he was on the decline, Rooney although he was only 28 years old he’s played an entire career worth of football by that point, add genetics and his lifestyle to the mix on top of the way he played the game with complete disregard to his own safety and how he left it all on the pitch every game since he broke through at 16 and you get a player who’s probably peaked at 26.
Nani? Great player for 2-3 years, was completely ineffective in SAF’s last season as well, hardly set the world alight since leaving us.

Problem with the SAF quote you’ve posted was that even SAF didn’t realize how good of a manager he actually was, that team was nowhere near a vintage United side, no shot any other manager could’ve walked the league with Carrick and Cleverley in midfield and no effective wingers, it was not a great side by any means man.

The academy was not in a good state by all accounts, and it was revamped and we’re seeing the results now with the likes of Zidane, Garnacho, Savage and few years back with you know who.

Its a shame really how that all turned out, all the money we wasted since.
Imagine SAF with all that money to spend, the team he would’ve built… fecking hell.

This is probably a debate for a different thread... but since you went there... In addition to the core group of veteran players you have largely disparaged (the majority of whom held multiple Premier League winners medals) you are conveniently omitting the array of youth players assembled who (if correctly managed at United) could have gone on to have far more promising careers - that's not on SAF in any way shape or form. Names in our title winning squad included De Gea, Rafael, Jones, Evans, Smalling, Wellbeck, Hernandez and talent in the system included Zaha, Januzaj, Lingard and Michael Keane. The team were league champions (having won 5 of the last 7 years - missing out on the other two by a point and goal difference - one point and one goal away from 7 in a row).

The failure lies in not adding to / augmenting this squad and properly managing the talent / assets the club held. That failure is directly on Moyes and the people who hired him. LVG at least attempted to do something about it, but those sides played horribly boring football and he was largely let down by his signings.I'm kind of sick of of the SAF set Moyes up to fail... no, Moyes managed to that all by himself by being not the right man for the job.

Don't start comparing the mess that is the state of our current squad to the time when SAF retired. That squad was in far better shape than we are now.

In many ways Ralf reminds me of the job LVG tried to do... both may have been better at the DOF role, but they couldn't get it done managing the team (Although I will concede that LVG did a much better job of managing than Ralf did)

 

[CarbonStoolBites]

This is probably a debate for a different thread... but since you went there... In addition to the core group of veteran players you have largely disparaged (the majority of whom held multiple Premier League winners medals) you are conveniently omitting the array of youth players assembled who (if correctly managed at United) could have gone on to have far more promising careers - that's not on SAF in any way shape or form. Names in our title winning squad included De Gea, Rafael, Jones, Evans, Smalling, Wellbeck, Hernandez and talent in the system included Zaha, Januzaj, Lingard and Michael Keane. The team were league champions (having won 5 of the last 7 years - missing out on the other two by a point and goal difference - one point and one goal away from 7 in a row).

The failure lies in not adding to / augmenting this squad and properly managing the talent / assets the club held. That failure is directly on Moyes and the people who hired him. LVG at least attempted to do something about it, but those sides played horribly boring football and he was largely let down by his signings.I'm kind of sick of of the SAF set Moyes up to fail... no, Moyes managed to that all by himself by being not the right man for the job.

Don't start comparing the mess that is the state of our current squad to the time when SAF retired. That squad was in far better shape than we are now.

In many ways Ralf reminds me of the job LVG tried to do... both may have been better at the DOF role, but they couldn't get it done managing the team (Although I will concede that LVG did a much better job of managing than Ralf did)

Welbeck, Rafael, Hernandez, M. Keane, Jones, Smalling, Januzaj, Lingard, yeah, hardly world beaters.
They all hardly set the world alight after leaving the club.

I repeat, the only manager that could’ve walked the league with that squad was SAF, it was ages away in quality from the 06-09 team. The core of that team was on its last legs and the young players weren’t good enough.

I have no doubt that if SAF was younger and was building his 4th great side and the third to win the European Cup for him, most of the “younger players” wouldn’t have made the cut, it would have been an entirely different team.
Can you imagine Smalling and Jones at the core of a CL winning defense? Exactly, me neither. You can’t turn a Smalling into a Rio Ferdinand or a Jaap Stam, doesn’t matter how good of a manager you are.

I’m not blaming SAF for anything, it made sense to leave the rebuild for his successor and again, I truly believe even SAF underrated his abilities as a manager.
You expected anyone else to compete with a midfield of Carrick and Cleverley and Young/Zaha/Valencia and Nani on the wings a crocked Van Persie and a past it Rooney against the likes of City with truly brilliant players at their peak like Silva, Aguero and Toure or Chelsea with Hazard and Fabregas and Costa for titles?
Unrealistic.

LVG, Ralf, Moyes, they were all crap in different ways. At least LVG had charm and won us the FA cup so I’ll give him that.

 

[Zen86]

If you see his actual alleged list you'd think otherwise.

The one that included Haaland?

 

[stevoc]

If by pouring petrol you mean exposing the actual culprits who lit the fire then yes.

Indeed, he was able to point out problems but seemingly had no solutions to any of the immediate ones and the season tanked.

Perhaps if he'd spent less time exposing people (including himself) and concentrated more on the job at hand maybe the season wouldn't have ended quite so badly.

 

[fezzerUTD]

Which was the wrong thing to do.

Sir Alex Ferguson should have been kept as a club Ambassador/Associate Director with no decision making powers whatsoever. This hasn't happened. He has consistently made bad choices/bad decisions since he retired. Actually, since before he retired as he ran the squad down & basically set up his replacement (Moyes) to fail.

Never should have got involved in the return of Ronaldo, that one is still causing problems now.

They should have kept RR - who was basically sacked for speaking truth to power. They certainly should not then have given his 'consultancy' role to these ex-heroes.

The other thing is and nobody likes to mention this, whilst SAF continues to work at the club, not just watch matches as a guest/figurehead, he acts as a buffer between the fans and the Glazers. There is a whole thread on this because someone started one by asking if SAF would take the opportunity to speak out against the American owners. Of course he won't because he is on £ 1 million a year - and I read one report saying its even more than that. His refusal to criticise the Glazers, his decision to continue working for them is technically him supporting them. Which is always going to be a problem for the Glazers out campaign.

There are 2 boards as you will know. The football board and the board of directors. The football board consists of SAF, Gill, Robson along with Arnold and Murtough. They make footballing decisions then go to the big board if you like and then decide to act on them decisions. Its not all on SAF.

 

[King Azaz the Unabridged]

I’m not blaming SAF for anything, it made sense to leave the rebuild for his successor and again, I truly believe even SAF underrated his abilities as a manager.
You expected anyone else to compete with a midfield of Carrick and Cleverley and Young/Zaha/Valencia and Nani on the wings a crocked Van Persie and a past it Rooney against the likes of City with truly brilliant players at their peak like Silva, Aguero and Toure or Chelsea with Hazard and Fabregas and Costa for titles?
Unrealistic.

There's a massive middle ground between competing for the title with the squad SAF left behind and what Moyes ended up doing with it - the best managers can't turn Smalling into Rio, but only managers who clearly aren't cut out for a top job can take the champions from 89 points to 64 in a year.

The debate isn't whether that 2012/13 squad was the best in the league (it wasn't). The person you quoted was replying to the tiresome, overused "Ferguson set his replacement up to fail" take that gets peddled now and then, usually by non-supporters.

 

[mu4c_20le]

Spoiler

 

[Greck]

Ralf rarely mentioned any names so I'm not sure what secret list is being referred to. If you believe this you probably also believe that top secret dossier story. With the club going against every obvious recommendation we're now having to use "recommendations" printed in tabloids that have no trail of verification. At least the ones that were being laughed at all summer actually came from his words.

 

[Rightnr]

Its honestly baffling and weird as you put it. Two wins in a row, two big signings in the last week and signs of significant change on and off the pitch yet the same people can't get away from their Ralf fixation.

Right on, Joel, Glazers forever.

 

[Loon]

In fairness the guy said we needed a new team and, even if ten Hag never had communication with him, it would appear to be ten Hag's assessment and current strategy too.

 

[RuudTom83]

Tbf Ralf will be asked about United in every single press conference from now until his last.

He wasn’t great at the role of interim, just as every other member of the squad was terrible at their own jobs during his time at the club.

 

[Halftrack]

For us fans yes. But not obvious for former managers and ETH wanted to give them last chance! Thank god we had a bad start!

And yet we failed to address them over and over.

This

Turns out he’s a pretty good advisor.
https://metro.co.uk/2022/08/27/form...helsea-off-buying-cristiano-ronaldo-17255661/

and this

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are not amazing insights, and definitely not ones you need to keep an advisor on retainer to get. It's "you need to outscore your opponent to win" level stuff.

Yes, Ralf knows a lot about building clubs and teams, which makes it even more strange that obvious "observations" like these keep getting posted as proof of his brilliance.

 

[jem]

Its honestly baffling and weird as you put it. Two wins in a row, two big signings in the last week and signs of significant change on and off the pitch yet the same people can't get away from their Ralf fixation.

mostly agree with you but what are the significant changes off the pitch (other than our new manager)?

 

[jem]

The most useless appointment we have ever made..Carrick would have taken us to top 4..

And you base that on what, exactly?

 

[RopersReturn]

Presupposing Rangnick had stayed on as DoF, I could imagine resentment developing between him and TenHag over the style of play and training regime. Gegenpress requires huge levels of fitness and a squad rotation of like for like players, so it probably wouldn’t have worked out.

 

[VidaRed]

Indeed, he was able to point out problems but seemingly had no solutions to any of the immediate ones and the season tanked.

Perhaps if he'd spent less time exposing people (including himself) and concentrated more on the job at hand maybe the season wouldn't have ended quite so badly.

His solution was open heart surgery which ten hag has already started by signing half a dozen players.

The vast majority of the blame for last season lays at the feet of the board and the players.

 

[Real Name]

A dozen new players, not ground breaking revelations, is it?

As a manager he failed big time and didnt take any responsibility whatsoever for our woeful form last season.

 

[Spoony]

A dozen new players, not ground breaking revelations, is it?

As a manager he failed big time and didnt take any responsibility whatsoever for our woeful form last season.

Was such a bizarre appointment. Gegenpress! Yes? No! He no cash and the players clearly didn't want to play under him - an authoritarian interim. His management skills are so difficult to judge from his time at OT. Great at press conferences though.

 

[frostbite]

"If you want to win, you must score more goals than the other team."

-- Ralf

 

[Andy_Cole]

Was such a bizarre appointment. Gegenpress! Yes? No! He no cash and the players clearly didn't want to play under him - an authoritarian interim. His management skills are so difficult to judge from his time at OT. Great at press conferences though.

An idea man but clearly struggles to actually manage and implement the ideas.

 

[crossy1686]

And you base that on what, exactly?

On the basis he wanted that to happen

 

[Fortitude]

thank god we stole Martinez and Antony

 

[Maticmaker]

Ralf has a football brain, he knows what is required overall to build a winning team/club, but his man-management/face to face skills let him down. He should have stuck to the consultancy role first offered and not have been be tempted/or allowed himself to be coerced into taking on the interim manager role,...a mistake I doubt he will ever make again!

 

[Sky1981]

Our fans sure are funny lot. Managers coming here have to be either young and progressive or past it dinosaur.

Not every manager suited a club, Ralf was by no means an idiot, nor jose, nor LVg, not even Moyes. They're just noy the right fit considering we're a behemoth built based on a vision of a single SAF from the tea lady to the coaching department.

What Raplh said was a no shit Sherlock moment. But then again it is what it is. Being smart means calling a spade spade. We're so bad last year that you dont need a high level technical analysis to come out with the facts.

 

[Sky1981]

Ralf has a football brain, he knows what is required overall to build a winning team/club, but his man-management/face to face skills let him down. He should have stuck to the consultancy role first offered and not have been be tempted/or allowed himself to be coerced into taking on the interim manager role,...a mistake I doubt he will ever make again!

No manager can succeed without given the sword to reign. Let alone in this toxic team.

He's gone in 6 months, he knew it the player knew it. He could have been selfish and lick their boots and made them happy but he didnt. He stick to his word and throw them under the bus. For that i salute him.

He might not last, but he's the straw that break the team up. He's shown the fraud that the teams are so that ETH would get total support to overhaul this team.

 

[Rolaholic]

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[stevoc]

His solution was open heart surgery which ten hag has already started by signing half a dozen players.

The vast majority of the blame for last season lays at the feet of the board and the players.

Well that's my point Ralf had no solutions to any of the immediate problems he faced as first team manager.

Ten Hag is a new manager, new managers usually sign 4-5 players. Solskjaer signed 5 in his first full season, Mourinho signed 4.

Plus ETH is trying to dramatically change the team's style of play, couple that with the high number of players who left (plus the Greenwood situation) then Erik signing 5 players suddenly doesn't seem so drastic.

 

[stevoc]

was slapped down for being 'inappropriate' by Ralf Rangnick

 

[VidaRed]

Well that's my point Ralf had no solutions to any of the immediate problems he faced as first team manager.

Ten Hag is a new manager, new managers usually sign 4-5 players. Solskjaer signed 5 in his first full season, Mourinho signed 4.

Plus ETH is trying to dramatically change the team's style of play, couple that with the high number of players who left (plus the Greenwood situation) then Erik signing 5 players suddenly doesn't seem so drastic.

The only solution was to get rid of the players.

If there was nothing wrong with the players and it was solely down to ole and then rangnick being inept then why didn't ten hag not go along with the same set of players ?

Ole tried to change the way we played, its why the players hit rock bottom because they cant play that way and ten hag knows that and that is why he signed new players without even giving a chance to the old players to prove themselves to him.

Rangnick got no pre season, got no backing from the board and had players in open revolt and downing tools. Yeah lets blame the manager

 

[VidaRed]

No manager can succeed without given the sword to reign. Let alone in this toxic team.

He's gone in 6 months, he knew it the player knew it. He could have been selfish and lick their boots and made them happy but he didnt. He stick to his word and throw them under the bus. For that i salute him.

He might not last, but he's the straw that break the team up. He's shown the fraud that the teams are so that ETH would get total support to overhaul this team.

Agreed.

 

[King Azaz the Unabridged]

Ole tried to change the way we played, its why the players hit rock bottom because they cant play that way and ten hag knows that and that is why he signed new players without even giving a chance to the old players to prove themselves to him.

Who are we even talking about here, seeing as Ten Hag went into the first league game of the season with De Gea, Maguire, Shaw, Fred, McTominay, Rashford and Fernandes all starting? Odds-on that Martial would have been playing if fit too.

Lindelof and Wan-Bissaka? Pretty sure they're the only ones who played regularly last season, didn't leave on free transfers, and haven't played yet.

 

[VidaRed]

Who are we even talking about here, seeing as Ten Hag went into the first league game of the season with De Gea, Maguire, Shaw, Fred, McTominay, Rashford and Fernandes all starting? Odds-on that Martial would have been playing if fit too.

Lindelof and Wan-Bissaka? Pretty sure they're the only ones who played regularly last season, didn't leave on free transfers, and haven't played yet.

 

[King Azaz the Unabridged]

I know who we signed. That's not what I asked.

 

[VidaRed]

I know who we signed. That's not what I asked.

If all these 5 are starters then surely 5 existing players will get relegated to the bench ?

 

[RedPed]

And you base that on what, exactly?

On the same assumptions that are bizarrely attributed to this Rangnick fella.

 

[Big Ben Foster]

Hilarious image in my head of Ralf slapping Ronaldo for having the gall to suggest that.

 

[King Azaz the Unabridged]

If all these 5 are starters then surely 5 existing players will get relegated to the bench ?

You implied these 5 were signed "without even giving a chance to the old players to prove themselves", which is the bit I was questioning. 2 of the 5 new guys haven't even started a game yet.

More to the point, since I'm familiar with your repeated line of reasoning across 70 pages of this thread: if we end up doing decently this season relative to the last one (let's say, 70-75 points in the league, in the ballpark of 2020/21) and a majority of the 8 old players I named play an important part (in the interest of quantifying things, let's say 5 of them end up playing the majority of games, i.e. making 20+ starts in the league), would you be willing to accept Rangnick did a poor job as a coach and should have gotten a better tune out of the players he had instead of spending six months doing nothing but saying he needed an entirely new squad?

Because I'm willing to flip it around and say if we do well this season and the old players do not play a significant role (i.e. fall short of the threshold I proposed), or indeed if they end up playing significant roles and we have another shite season (sub-70 points), I will retract my previous stance that our squad of players for at least the last five seasons has been closer to the level we aspire to be than the 3 managers we've had in this period. Just curious to see if the people still so vocal about Rangnick's virtues and relative blamelessness for last season will do the same and challenge their own views.

 

[jem]

On the same assumptions that are bizarrely attributed to this Rangnick fella.

Well at least Rangnick has a CV, in team building and coaching. What does Carrick have?

 

[Drz]

I agree with a lot if not all that Rangnick said in public whilst managing us, though I do wish he'd have kept it for the powers that be.

For example the "open heart surgery" comment, I agree with but:
a/ it puts a group of players who aren't good enough and low in confidence even lower in confidence, so they wouldn't even perform to their average ability
b/ sends a big signal that we are going to be desperate to buy in the upcoming transfer window to anyone we'd be negotiating purchases with
c/ makes the few players worth selling even less worth it from a price perspective to potential buyers
So that message, however true, was putting the club in a position of weakness, declared and acknowledged publicly.

The comment that sticks-out though for me was that what we need to do to remedy the situation is "obvious". Well if it's obvious what use would Ragnick have in a consultancy role? He can just submit his report and move on.
I don't know if it's because of my previous job, but I have a very poor impression of consultants, I think it was a TV show that described them as "people you pay to take your watch and sell you the time", in my personal experience I have found that extremely accurate, and that "obvious" comment just made it obvious to me that his presence was redundant.