Ralf Rangnick's consultancy role has been scrapped

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El Jefe

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I think people hoped he could help behind the scenes. That never happened. He was a completel failure as a manager but was correct in most of what he said.

Nobody is crushed by the fact that EtH is fantastic. Any United fan is happy.

Its only you and other weirdos who cannot seem to get over Rangnick. He was shite, got canned end of story.
This thread is kept alive by his defenders like you. You and a few others pretty much led the charge for the Ralf army and your post count in here is indicative of that.

I'm happy to never post in here again if we can all agree he was shite and his time here should be wiped from the history of the club. What I won't tolerate are the lies and misinformation spewed by his supporters which continuously get exposed as lies.
 

Withnail

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I did not say this! I only said Ralf 100% had a role in the process, he was pushing for ETH when the boards favorable option was Poch, this is well known. As for the arse kissing it literally was exactly that. Murtough wanted no one else but Ralf. The guy who 80% in this thread is calling a clueless moron who damaged the club.

I wonder who hired him and gave him 2 year consultancy role just to convince him to come here.. Are they not responsible? I thought Ralf did really poor with the time he had but he is getting an absurd amount of hate in this thread that is unwarranted.

The dressing room at that time was immensely toxic and he had to deal with the whole Ronaldo issue. What he said in terms of critique about the club was the same exact things that 95% of the fanbase was saying and now that Ralf is gone and suddenly things are going a bit better he is public enema number 1 and all of his criticism is seen as BS!

What pure hypocritical rubbish.
We seem to be at cross purposes here.

I'm arguing against this point you made:

Point is they had a whole list of candidates and Ralf had a big part in chosing the manager on that list. He took the best decision there and opted for the interesting choice rather than all other "safe picks"
You're probably right that he's getting too much stick but I think you're giving him too much credit tbh. Ten Hag wasn't unknown or a choice made out of left field nobody had ever heard of. It would have been negligent not to interview him.
 

Lyng

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This thread is kept alive by his defenders like you. You and a few others pretty much led the charge for the Ralf army and your post count in here is indicative of that.

I'm happy to never post in here again if we can all agree he was shite and his time here should be wiped from the history of the club. What I won't tolerate are the lies and misinformation spewed by his supporters which continuously get exposed as lies.
I was hoping he would work for us behind the scenes. And I have defended him from idiotic takes like "he has never managed anyone before, he hasnt any experience behind the scenes etc".
Where we can agree is that he was a shite manager for us. He was correct about us needed 10 players to be dominant again.
 

Levenstein

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Would be awesome to bring him back, if we should get new owners. Think he will work well with Ten Hag.
 

Halftrack

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Source for this?

And his contract included the consultancy role, it wasn't verbal. That was a misquote by the Daily Mirror headline writers, what Rangnick said was the opposite ""These are the things we haven’t spoken about. I’m not worried about that. I’m 64 very soon, so for me it’s not about having a contract on paper, it’s about what will really happen. How much does Erik and the board want my opinion and my experience? That’s what we haven’t spoken about.". He had a contract, but he was waiting to see whether EtH wanted him around and he didn't care what was written on paper.

What was reported was that Woodward wanted him at the club as a consultant for his experience "Sources say it was Ed Woodward pushing that consultancy role as he believes Rangnick’s "unbelievable knowledge and experience" will be key in helping those at board level.". I.e, the person who hired Murtaugh didn't trust his level of experience without a helper.
Even your own article paints the consultancy as a deal-sweetener rather than the main reason for his appointment. Which I think has the same basis as the reports that the consultancy was included at Rangnick's request.

As for it being vaguely defined, it was reported by SkySports and SportBILD via SportWitness independently.
 

Dion

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Even your own article paints the consultancy as a deal-sweetener rather than the main reason for his appointment. Which I think has the same basis as the reports that the consultancy was included at Rangnick's request.
I take it this means there isn't anywhere that said it was at Rangnick's request. Okay well glad we got that cleared up.
 

stevoc

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All reliable sources were saying clubs first choice was Poch
He may well have been but it's been pretty well documented that Ten Hag became first choice after impressing in direct discussions with Murtagh and Fletcher.

Also Murtough was the one who personally was kissing Ralfs arse and had multiple meetings with him begging him to come here as an intrerim, Ralf was hesitant at first so Murtough threw in a 2 year consultancy role to convince him!

Does that not answer your own question?
So the people running the club were able to identify and hire a competent fellow Rangnick on their own, so I dare say they did the same in hiring Ten Hag. Who knows how much Ralf was involved but Ralf himself said he had little to do with the hiring of ETH. I believe him.
 

Halftrack

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I take it this means there isn't anywhere that said it was at Rangnick's request. Okay well glad we got that cleared up.
You mean like there isn't a wingle source for "he was going to be the DoF" other than your brain?
 

stefan92

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I take it this means there isn't anywhere that said it was at Rangnick's request. Okay well glad we got that cleared up.
Probably it got assumed because he allegedly declined the interim job at Chelsea (whi then went for Tuchel) because he didn't want to do such a short term job. But as the rest of the season at United was much longer than it was at Chelsea we don't know if he actually needed that consultancy role to be convinced.
 

Halftrack

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Probably it got assumed because he allegedly declined the interim job at Chelsea (whi then went for Tuchel) because he didn't want to do such a short term job. But as the rest of the season at United was much longer than it was at Chelsea we don't know if he actually needed that consultancy role to be convinced.
Well that, and also the article @Dion himself linked suggests he was originally approached to be interim, and that the consultancy was only included after meetings were had. A further article linked in said article has more to say about it.

But he was definitely going to basically be the de-facto DoF, the sources for this are *fart noises*
 

horsechoker

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This thread has 2 sides

People who think Ralf didn't do a good job but was right about a few things

And

People who think Ralf did an awful job, got nothing right and is the worst person ever.

The former is accused of defending him despite barely doing so.
 

stevoc

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He was brought in to be a consultant to our DoF. That was literally announced. Consultants are hired to fill skill and knowledge gaps in an organisation. That's literally their job. Saying there's no evidence when it was announced when he signed he was doing exactly that because you want to believe some conspiracy about it being a bung is nonsense.
Now your basically agreeing with my assessment of the Rangnick situation but framing as if that's what you've been saying all along and that I'm a conspiracy theorist (I never mentioned any bungs btw). :lol:

Yeah there is evidence he was hired to be a consultant which was exactly my point. :lol: You're the one claiming he was actually going to be taking up a position that there's zero evidence for. It was pretty well documented that his role was envisaged to be aiding with recruitment and then it came out he would only be consulting a few days a month. So however you spin it mate that doesn't amount him being hired to be the DOF, the De Facto DOF, Assistant DOF, Co-DOF or anything remotely resembling that sort of position.

And if you think that the Glazers wouldn't hire someone without the requisite experience just because they were a comfortable yes man then I point you to Solskjaer, Woodward, Arnold and Murtaugh. It's their entire business model.
They can and do make bad recruitment choices but only because they don't know any better. But they aren't going to hire someone to secretly do someone else's job for them while also paying said person a Director of Football's salary. If they actually know that person (Murtagh) isn't fit for the job. Now that is conspiracy theory nonsense mate.
 

BlueHaze

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We seem to be at cross purposes here.

I'm arguing against this point you made:



You're probably right that he's getting too much stick but I think you're giving him too much credit tbh. Ten Hag wasn't unknown or a choice made out of left field nobody had ever heard of. It would have been negligent not to interview him.
In terms of the hiring of Erik I might be, as none of us really know the true inside story, all we can base our opinions on are what media were reporting at the time and many sources did indeed claim Rangnick was pushing for ETH while the board was leaning more towards Poch.

Do not forget, there was so much talks about the board favoring poch that 80% of this place was already thinking it was done and was dreading the option of him over ETH!
 

Dion

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Now your basically agreeing with my assessment of the Rangnick situation but framing as if that's what you've been saying all along and that I'm a conspiracy theorist (I never mentioned any bungs btw). :lol:

Yeah there is evidence he was hired to be a consultant which was exactly my point. :lol: You're the one claiming he was actually going to be taking up a position that there's zero evidence for. It was pretty well documented that his role was envisaged to be aiding with recruitment and then it came out he would only be consulting a few days a month. So however you spin it mate that doesn't amount him being hired to be the DOF, the De Facto DOF, Assistant DOF, Co-DOF or anything remotely resembling that sort of position.
You're just saying a lot of words which amount to Woodward wanted to hire someone to help our DoF do his job.


They can and do make bad recruitment choices but only because they don't know any better. But they aren't going to hire someone to secretly do someone else's job for them while also paying said person a Director of Football's salary. If they actually know that person (Murtagh) isn't fit for the job. Now that is conspiracy theory nonsense mate.
Unless their aim isn't to have the best DoF, it's to have someone who is willing to play by the rules. Which is something we've seen repeatedly in their appointments.

You mean like there isn't a wingle source for "he was going to be the DoF" other than your brain?
That and them hiring someone to do the DoF's job for him
 

Tom Cato

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Everyone on the Ralf train do understand that Ralfs intended role after his managerial stint was to be a brain to pick for Murtough, and nothing else? Not the DOF, not a restructure leader, not part of club leadership, not part of department leadership, not responsible for anything, not overseeing anything. Only a guy that could offer his opinion and be paid to do so. A guy who sends emails and gets invited to Teams meetings. Thats it.

There is never,and was never, any intention for Ralf to have any type of prominent role at the club. It was just a undefined consultanty gig where Murtough could lean on his experience from a similar role.

Rangnick made himself inedible to the club with his epic ablity to alienate himself from the squad, throw everyone but himself under the bus for the longest time, and point out things glaringly obvious to everyone who watches football and be hailed at Redcafeas some sort of wizard for saying things everyone knew anyway.

Every time Ralf got in front of a microphone after having the managerial bounce of a black hole, he made his position at the club weaker, and his role here ultimately pointless.

Appointing Ralf as a interim was a bizarre choice considering his current dayjob. They could have gone for the consultancy option from the get-go and actually made some use of him, instead of appoing a manager that attempted to change playingstyles overnight and blamed the players when it didnt go well.

Good leaders look at themselves first.
 

El Jefe

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This thread has 2 sides

People who think Ralf didn't do a good job but was right about a few things

And

People who think Ralf did an awful job, got nothing right and is the worst person ever.

The former is accused of defending him despite barely doing so.
Hey don't forget the lad who's adamant Ralf was meant the be the unofficial DoF despite no evidence pointing towards that.

For those saying he got nothing right, he got nothing right in the confines of his role as interim manager. It's more a bewilderment that he's seen as a martyr to some because of words at press conferences. I struggle to think of anything he got right that he needs praise for.

He said we need better players, younger players and better recruitment. There have been thousands of posts on here calling for the same thing for nearly a decade, hardly anything worth praising hin for.
 

saivet

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Even your own article paints the consultancy as a deal-sweetener rather than the main reason for his appointment. Which I think has the same basis as the reports that the consultancy was included at Rangnick's request. As for it being vaguely defined, it was reported by SkySports and SportBILD via SportWitness independently.
A couple other tweets saying as much. He ideally wanted to be the full time manager or he wanted this 'consultancy role that had significant power.
 

Adnan

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Well that, and also the article @Dion himself linked suggests he was originally approached to be interim, and that the consultancy was only included after meetings were had. A further article linked in said article has more to say about it.

But he was definitely going to basically be the de-facto DoF, the sources for this are *fart noises*
The Goal article clearly states that Woodward gave Rangnick the consultancy role to help the board, and the article specifically mentioned Richard Arnold. John Murtough isn't part of the board but is actually part of the football side of the club. So I agree with what you're saying.

It seems Woodward's parting gift was to push for the consultancy role to help Richard Arnold at board room level. But it doesn't seem like there was much joined up thinking and Rangnick was given a unspecified role by Woodward which became a problem due to Woodward leaving his role shortly after.
It was widely reported that Woodward pushed for the consultancy role to be given to Rangnick and all the reliable outlets reported the below information.


It's not difficult to be a well run club, you just have to have everyone working together on the football side of the club. And that's something hasn't happened at the club since the recruitment structure was modernised in 2016, but Woodward still allowed both Mourinho and Ole to operate independently by using their personal scouts. And when you have a recruitment structure and a coaching staff working independently from each other and hence reporting to Ed Woodward rather than connecting with each other to align the process, you've then repeated what Liverpool did with Brendan Rodgers who had his own personal recruitment staff.

Rangnick joined Hoffenheim under the billionaire Dietmar Hopp. And without Hopp investing almost half a billion € of his own money, Hoffenheim wouldn't have got anywhere. The same applies to the RedBull clubs who were backed with even bigger finances. But that doesn't mean Rangnick didn't do a good job, but what did he do and can it be easily replicated? Rangnick himself has admitted it's a simple process and there's many articles written on how he went about structuring the clubs in question at lower league level. And the way he did that was simply by building a scouting/football department that did the bulk of the work for him, whilst working towards a set guiding principle of wanting to target players for a specific way of playing the game.

It's very simple and why the biggest clubs in Germany have sporting directors from within their setup who empower the existing football structure already at the club and appoint a head coach to work and report directly to them and not the club's board, which is what we've been doing.
 

Robbie Boy

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This thread has 2 sides

People who think Ralf didn't do a good job but was right about a few things

And

People who think Ralf did an awful job, got nothing right and is the worst person ever.

The former is accused of defending him despite barely doing so.
So true :lol:
 

pcaming

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His tenure was abysmal, but was exasperated by the damage of Ole's half, the state of the players and the inability to bring proper coaches to assist. I don't think we would be in as good a position now if he were still coach and had good trainers, but I'm sure it wouldn't be as bad as last, we'd be competitive.

That being said, I think the man knew exactly how to fix the club, and I think we would have done well with him in a director's role. His transfer targets have proven to be on point, and he would have sorted out the squad.

There's no real need to think that negatively of him, as the conditions were honestly just crap for all involved. I can easily imagine us having a great transfer window and doing well this season with him in a capacity of power.

Anyway, it seems the club have stumbled across the correct decisions, and I just hope they get in someone to better assist ETH, improve us in the transfer market, and advise the owners.
 

stevoc

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You're just saying a lot of words which amount to Woodward wanted to hire someone to help our DoF do his job.
Yes that's basically what I'm saying mate, that's what every club does and that's what consultants do they help.

I don't know if you understand what a Director of Football does but as I understand it he directs the football side of a club. Which will involve a lot of people working under him or if you like 'helping' him. But he's still the DOF no one else.

Unless their aim isn't to have the best DoF, it's to have someone who is willing to play by the rules. Which is something we've seen repeatedly in their appointments.
Or their aim is to have the best DOF they can hire but they are just not very good at making appointments. Though to be fair it remains to be seen whether or not Murtagh is a good DOF or not. I don't think at this stage after 18 months or so you could definitively say he's been brilliant or awful.
 

Xaviesta

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This thread has 2 sides

People who think Ralf didn't do a good job but was right about a few things

And

People who think Ralf did an awful job, got nothing right and is the worst person ever.

The former is accused of defending him despite barely doing so.
Spot on.
 

Dion

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Yes that's basically what I'm saying mate, that's what every club does and that's what consultants do they help.

I don't know if you understand what a Director of Football does but as I understand it he directs the football side of a club. Which will involve a lot of people working under him or if you like 'helping' him. But he's still the DOF no one else.

Or their aim is to have the best DOF they can hire but they are just not very good at making appointments. Though to be fair it remains to be seen whether or not Murtagh is a good DOF or not. I don't think at this stage after 18 months or so you could definitively say he's been brilliant or awful.
A part of any senior role is to delegate work to subordinates and synthesise their outputs, that's a massive part of the job description. That's not "helping" someone to do their job. It's not remotely the same as hiring someone to do something you should be doing.

That this needs explaining at all is a sign this discussion isn't worth having. Farewell.

It's wild that you've managed to convince yourself of this.
No less wild than the idea that it was all a financial arrangement so he could leave his job in Russia and was never actually going to happen.
 

lsd

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Would be awesome to bring him back, if we should get new owners. Think he will work well with Ten Hag.

Unreal the state of these posts, he was absolutely useless, destroyed what little team spirit we had at the time and Ten Hag made it very clear he wanted nothing to do with him.

Just because the guy took the easy way and blamed everyone bar himself every single week some people seem to think he was the second coming
 

Halftrack

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Would be awesome to bring him back, if we should get new owners. Think he will work well with Ten Hag.
You mean the same ten Hag who didn't want to meet with him and had no interest in his opinions on the squad nor his suggested signings?
 

stevoc

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Be honest mate are you on a wind up? You're talking yourself round in circles here. :lol:

A part of any senior role is to delegate work to subordinates and synthesise their outputs, that's a massive part of the job description. That's not "helping" someone to do their job.
You were the one who brought up the idea of 'helping' so I ran with it as you seemed comfortable with the concept.

And I see we're using work speak now, I'll play along. A person in a senior position delegates tasks to trusted subordinates, as in most industries this allows one person to manage the completion of many tasks that they wouldn't have the time to do alone. So if a person in a junior position has been delegated with a task and completes said task then they are in effect 'helping'.

It's not remotely the same as hiring someone to do something you should be doing.

That this needs explaining at all is a sign this discussion isn't worth having. Farewell.
Are we talking about your theory here that Rangnick was hired to do Murtagh's job for him. :lol:
 

Dion

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Be honest mate are you on a wind up? You're talking yourself round in circles here. :lol:

You were the one who brought up the idea of 'helping' so I ran with it as you seemed comfortable with the concept.

And I see we're using work speak now, I'll play along. A person in a senior position delegates tasks to trusted subordinates, as in most industries this allows one person to manage the completion of many tasks that they wouldn't have the time to do alone. So if a person in a junior position has been delegated with a task and completes said task then they are in effect 'helping'.

Are we talking about your theory here that Rangnick was hired to do Murtagh's job for him. :lol:
This is spurious nonsense because when you hire a senior executive it's never intended for him to the work that's being delegated to junior positions. The executives job is the delegation. That's not the same as hiring in a consultant to do jobs that the executive would be expected to do himself.
 

stevoc

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Be honest mate are you on a wind up? You're talking yourself round in circles here. :lol:



You were the one who brought up the idea of 'helping' so I ran with it as you seemed comfortable with the concept.

And I see we're using work speak now, I'll play along. A person in a senior position delegates tasks to trusted subordinates, as in most industries this allows one person to manage the completion of many tasks that they wouldn't have the time to do alone. So if a person in a junior position has been delegated with a task and completes said task then they are in effect 'helping'.
This is spurious nonsense because when you hire a senior executive it's never intended for him to (do) the work that's being delegated to junior positions. The executives job is the delegation.
Yeah you must be on a wind up or at least I hope you are.
 

Dion

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Yeah you must be on a wind up or at least I hope you are.
Oh come on, even if you step away from the Rangnick thing you must see the fundamental difference between a DoF delegating work he's expected to delegate because it's not part of his role to actually do them, and bringing in someone to do work the DoF is expected to do. You can use "help" to describe both if you like but it's abundantly clear based on context which one you'd be referring to. This is getting silly.

You're arguing that two separate concepts could both be described by the same word and are thus the same, which is disingenuous to the extreme.

Completely excluding Rangnick and United from the equation do you accept the principle that a subordinate doing work which is expected to be delegated to him from someone senior is a different type of 'help' to an executive being unable to delegate said work correctly even though it's expected as part of the role, so bringing in an external consultant to do it?
 
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stevoc

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Oh come on, even if you step away from the Rangnick thing you must see the fundamental difference between a DoF delegating work he's expected to delegate because it's not part of his role to actually do them, and bringing in someone to do work the DoF is expected to do. You can use "help" to describe both if you like but it's abundantly clear based on context which one you'd be referring to. This is getting silly.

You're arguing that two separate concepts could both be described by the same word and are thus the same, which is disingenuous to the extreme.

Completely excluding Rangnick and United from the equation do you accept the principle that a subordinate doing work which is expected to be delegated to him from someone senior is a different type of 'help' to an executive being unable to delegate said work correctly even though it's expected as part of the role, so bringing in an external consultant to do it?
I think the silly ship sailed about 10 posts ago mate.

Rangnick wasn't brought into to be the Director of Football or any similar position of authority, that's the important point here in this thread.

There's no need for us to get further into a tedious discussion debating the semantics of delegating tasks.
 

Dion

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I think the silly ship sailed about 10 posts ago mate.

Rangnick wasn't brought into to be the Director of Football or any similar position of authority, that's the important point here in this thread.

There's no need for us to get further into a tedious discussion debating the semantics of delegating tasks.
I'm sorry but if you're going to dodge simple, straightforward yes or no questions then there's no point you replying at all anymore. I made the exact same point multiple posts ago and you drew it out into a semantic argument.
 

stevoc

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I'm sorry but if you're going to dodge simple, straightforward yes or no questions then there's no point you replying at all anymore. I made the exact same point multiple posts ago and you drew it out into a semantic argument.
:lol:

You're the guy who's been insisting for the last few pages that Rangnick was brought in to be the DOF or De facto DOF as you put it.
 

Iker Quesadillas

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It seems to me like Rangnick was spot on.
Rangnick was spot on in a trivial way: he didn't say anything even remotely insightful. Just a bunch of obvious and vague things that fit most situations.
 

AlPistacho

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He was correct about us needed 10 players to be dominant again.
RR did say a lot of correct things and did recommend very good players who would have no doubt improved us.

But he was absolutely wrong to say that, ETH has proved that wrong , and it was also incredibly stupid. How can you basically call your entire team crap and expect them to work for you?

So even if he was right, which he wasn’t, he was still wrong to say it publicly. Lost him the support of the dressing room.
 

Sviken

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RR did say a lot of correct things and did recommend very good players who would have no doubt improved us. But he was absolutely wrong to say that, ETH has proved that wrong , and it was also incredibly stupid. How can you basically call your entire team crap and expect them to work for you? So even if he was right, which he wasn’t, he was still wrong to say it publicly. Lost him the support of the dressing room.
How was he wrong? ETH basically got almost a brand new team and almost all of the players have been integral to this side. Sure, you can argue Rangnick's approach was wrong, should have been done behind the scenes, but his argument definitely wasn't
 

Dion

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Rangnick was spot on in a trivial way: he didn't say anything even remotely insightful. Just a bunch of obvious and vague things that fit most situations.
I don't think this is especially accurate. There wasn't anything vague about his criticisms. You can argue they weren't insightful, sure, but they were specific and accurate.
 

Iker Quesadillas

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He was correct about us needed 10 players to be dominant again.
This is a perfect example of what I mean by 'trivially true statements.'

Rangnick told Sky Sports:

If you look at the size of the way the team needs to be rebuilt, I mean, it’s not enough to bring in three or four new players. It will be more, bearing in mind how many players will no longer be here with the contracts running out.
It is trivially true that you need to sign lots of players if you lose lots of them due to contracts running out. It is true whether you're doing poorly, like United were, or doing great, like City were.
 
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