Good stuff. Best sign thus far that the new management team are doing the right things that we spot Hojlund isn’t up for it early on and sell him while he still has some value
Rasmus Hojlund (Out) | take performance chat to his performance thread
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I think this is a mistake, he has a lot to give in the right settings.
He was outperforming Hojlund at 21-22, his main issue during his early time at Arsenal was constant injuries.
But coming back to your assertion here, for ages 21/22, here is what chatgpt says:
Which seems to support what I remember.
The following season, he played more as the CF due to Henry being injured.
Then went back to playing other roles the next season.
Again, this supports the assertion that he was developed at Arsenal as a CF, he didn't really assume the role fully until Henry left
Found the troll guys
I agree with this. He's going to become a really good striker. I hope its here and that we find someone to share the burden with him in the meantime. Swappin him with an older player who is on huge wages is making the same mistakes of old. If they get a big fee for him then fair enough. Nobody is going to know his true c current worth better than people watching him for the last two seasons but to me he looks to have bags of potential as an old fashioned no 9
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I think between now and the end of the season the posters who think he should be sold will be changing their tune.
Rasmus is certainly good enough as a back up striker for us.
For £50m we’d be fools not to sell.
With the context that he played in a squad of far better players, in a settled team with experienced mentors
The question should be if we see enough upside for him to become the caliber of striker who would cost 70m. If not, if there is another young prospect available who could be the development striker and that would cost less than what we could sell Hojlund for it should be done.
We should be looking to improve the squad in all ways we can, and we should not forget the capital expenditure we made with Hojlund.
I'm not sure about him personally, maybe he has what it takes, maybe he doesn't, but if there is better available then we should certainly upgrade if its financially feasible and puts us in a better position squad wise. I also really don't think a short spell of maybe 2 months of good form should change anyone opinion on the matter either.
Ah come on
Sure, but he was still the better player. Even his career before Arsenal was better than Hojlunds before United
My point being comparison to RVP is stupid, they are not in the same league as players and Hojlund has much work to do to be in those types of conversations (even at the same age)
That wasn't a comparison with Hojlund. you don't see a complete player at the age of 22. Players grow at different pace.
So the question still stands.
The transfer fee reflects the market for strikers. Why do you think Arsenal haven't bought a striker? Chelsea are collecting wingers when they have Jackson up top, City have locked Haaland down on a stupid contract. There is a dearth of quality strikers out there hence why we paid an inflated fee for him.
End of the day he is here, he can improve - maybe not enough to be the starting striker for a United going for the title but for where we are now (as a backup) he would be fine.
Cash in the bank cannot start against Sociedad away in November, nor can it score goals or replace an injured player during a game. If we sell him we now need two strikers to bed in next season and after having sold him we need to convince the next young player that they can come here and develop after we just got shot of the last young player we told the same thing too.
No I wouldn’t compare them. RvP is like a key to hojlunds battering ram.
I will argue all day long though that the squad this year was not setup to score goals and we kept taking away options and not replacing them. So I personally think it’s unfair to seriously judge our front players based on this season. But I’ll leave it there
Read my post properly and you would see I never suggested cash in the bank, I suggested we should be open to moving him on if a better prospect is available for the right fee. Because as a club we should always be looking to improve the squad.
To spell it out to you again, if there is a better development striker available (with more upside) for less than what we can get for Hojlund we should do the deal.
We also need to make sure we don't hold on to players who have not performed at the required level for 2 years or more. By the way this season I don't think Hojlund has performed well enough even for a backup or second striker at United
Yeah and read my post again.
After you've sold the last development (I'm guessing you mean young) player, you then have to convince the next one that you won't just sell them halfway through the contract and give them time to, y'know, develop (key point here) and then they will need time to get used to playing for United, the league, the schedule etc etc.
Hojlund has had a tough season, as has the entire club and he has been put in a position he should never have been due to factors out of his control. Our focus should be on bringing in a more experienced senior starting striker, not getting shot of a young player after one terrible season.
I read your post, you made reference to cash in the bank which I never did hence the reply.
Yes and any player coming here should also be aware that if we deem their development to be going poorly and the club no longer has faith in them then we would sell them, that is high level sports and United as a club should have high standards. Especially if we forked out top money for the player.
By the way we also signed Antony and Sancho to develop them, maybe we should keep them on the books too until their contracts run out in case you know other young players might be scared to come here.
We're not a charity, its different if you sign a player for the u21/18s, you sign a player to be the backup striker they need to be able to perform to that level, the development is for them to become a starting then top level striker not a development one
I've been saying it for a while since last season.
Opinion might be wrong, might be right, only the future knows.
Above post is from last seasonShould score there
Get an experienced striker in January and give this guy some rest/time to perform without pressure.
Below 2 posts are from this season
He needs another striker to share the load, preferably an experienced striker, not another kid who will also be affected by the pressure to deliver.
He can't be the single striker we have at the club. This is not the way to develop young and upcoming players.
You're expecting a 21-22 year old young striker, who is in his 2nd season in one of the best and most physical leagues in the world, to constantly deliver for one of the biggest clubs in the world on a week by week basis.
Anyone who is not another R9 phenomenon regen will fail in these circumstances. The pressure is immense to the point where almost anyone else would fail.
Compare it to the period where we had Ibrahimovic leading the line with Martial/Rashford as back up (before they transitioned to the left attacking winger role).
An even better comparison would be when we got Chicharito at the club. He was allowed to have a soft landing and get accustomed to the league without having the burden of being our savior in the striker role, because we had established and experienced players as 1st choice.
The numbers I used were taken directly from transfermarkt, using Chatgpt for something like this is genuinely quite funny though.
We can't even have second thoughts about selling him if the offer is anywhere near £50m, it's an immediate sell. Even if it's at around £25m - £30m then the wise choice is to accept.
It is given it used transfermarkt and other references including heatmaps and official club line ups etc as its source
But do go ahead and produce your evidence, thanks
No, because he was a young player. And it took him 6 years to get to the point where he was ready to lead the line for a Premier League club.
I see you are again omitting the fact he was not a CF before he joined Arsenal and that was a huge factor in the time element given the fact he needed to be developed for the position (as well as injuries)
Not to mention he became the main striker within those 6 years
The cash in the bank was to make the point, which may have been to subtle, that just becaue money comes in for a player it does not necessarily mean you will be able to replace that player straight away - we've had that in the January transfer window.
The bolded is simplistic nonsense. Ignoring the fact that we are in a competitive landscape where the top talent has many options open to them and the power is completely in the players hands with regards to contracts, its also just not how real life works. It is the clubs responsibility to identify top talent and personality, Rasmus is clearly not good enough to lead the line week in week out (yet) and thats on the club not him.
22 years old, plenty of time to develop in his contract, look to have a good attitude and never kicks up a fuss. Perfect backup striker.
The model says it does, that doesn't mean it actually does. I'm being polite here, but it's not a remotely appropriate way to use something like ChatGPT.It is given it used transfermarkt and other references including heatmaps and official club line ups etc as its source
I did, in the post you're replying to.
Read my post again and note the following:
You are making excuses for something I have not suggested.
It's not nonsense, by the way, it's the reason why the development prospect we signed, Antony, will likely be leaving the club this summer before the end of his contract.
It's why players like Dan James didn't last long at the club, too
All clubs sometimes acknowledge they made mistakes and move players on and all players know there is a level/standard they need to play too even as a development player or they are at risk of being sold. Its different when you are signed for the youth team to when you are signed a s a first-team squad member.
Whether or not the club/Amorim feel Hojlund is good enough I guess we'll find out
I agree. He's had a rough season, and maybe it was too early for him to play at this level, in a horribly dysfunctional team, but I still believe he could be a top striker in a few years. He looks like one of those types that bloom a bit late. I also think he is a lethal finisher. A loan for a year or two, somewhere where he can be out of the spotlight and develop his game, would do him some good. I wouldn't sell him yet.
You didn't provide any links or stats you simply wrote he played as a central striker more in 5 of his first 6 seasons. Evidence requires you to reference your sources for verification / post the actual data points
I see you are omitting the fact that's there he played in the majority of every single one of this first 6 years at Arsenal. Also kind of ignoring the fact he was playing in a front 2 for Feyenoord. And that you're not extending that same time to Hojlund, and that he never became their settle main striker until 2010ish, which is why they ran through other strikers.
Again, I think you need to go back to the post you quoted just now which explicitly states where the figures came from. I'm surprised you have forgotten this already given you name dropped the source as evidence ChatGPT was accurate with a winky face.
Until you provide the evidence for this I cannot take it as fact.
Again if you are going to state things are fact you need to provide the evidence, he played mainly as a left wide player at Feyenoord and played some games as a 10 or second striker as I already posted previously. Hojlund played as a CF he whole professional career, its not the same situation clearly and even then as the same age RVP was outperforming him. The RVP comparison just isn't a good one, not sure this is the hill you want to die on here.
Hojlund isn't playing this season at a level that is good enough for a backup striker so yes his level is quite far below the level of RVP in 05/06 season, its not the same situation at all. Also Hojlund has always played as a CF
It was given it used more sources than you did for cross referencing. but again go ahead and post the stats or move on
EDIT: Just for your information Transfermarkt, as that database can shift or expand over time, and older matches sometimes have incomplete or updated positional labels.
It helps to use more source and data analysis tools which is why I used chatgpt to integrate the sources.
Ah yeah so you are talking about an imaginary scenario where someone offers a load of money and we are also able to convince someone else (who might be turn out to be a worse player considering they are a "development player") for about the same price (or more? how does this work in imaginationland?) we just sold RH for.
Antony wasn't signed to sit on the bench.
Dan James was a decent backup player for us, he got a brilliant offer to start for another PL club and we were stacked in his position (Greenwood, Rashford, Martial, Mata from memory). RH is a completely different proposition, signed with the idea that he would be given time to develop and now we want to sell him to leave Zirkzee as the only striker?
That was the premise of this thread, and I explicitly said this in my post which is why I kept telling you to refer back to it.
Dan James was sold because we deemed him not good enough, he was signed a player we wanted to develop with good amount of potential and updside. Even though he still had room to develop and time left on his contract we decided he didn't have the potential we originally believed, according to you this is not something we should do because it would deter other young players from wanting to sign. No need to try and shift the argument because no where have I suggested we sell Hojlund and leave Zirkzee as the loan striker. I would say go back and read my post but no point.
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That's not how LLM's work.
And like I said, the numbers were pulled directly from Transfermarkt.com;
Here's the 04/05 season:
https://www.transfermarkt.com/robin-van-persie/leistungsdaten/spieler/4380/plus/0?saison=2004
They're right there for you to look at. The stats have already been posted.
You can keep playing dumb with stuff like the below, but it's abundantly clear where my figures came from and I've been upfront with them. They're publicly available for anyone to check their veracity. Pretending there's some kind of opacity is just a childish attempt to avoid addressing them.
That’s likely under book value.
IF we sell, I hope that we well for a sensible price, one that fetches 40m+
Niether was Hojlund...
You seriously think Hojlund, 20 years old and scorer of 10? league goals for Atalanta was signed by United to start week in week out and score the majority of goals?
You sure about that bud? You don't think a certain local lad superstar was expected to be the main goalscorer for the forseeable?
In fact here is a quote from Murtough when he was signed:
"Working under Erik ten Hag and his coaches will provide Rasmus with the perfect development platform. Everyone across the club will ensure that he is given the time and all the support required to reach his immense potential."
and Hojlund himself:
"Once I had spoken to the manager, I knew that this environment would be perfect for my development."
Ok so we signed Hojlund to sit on the bench, so who was supposed to be the main striker starting as the CF going into the season?
And who was supposed to be the main striker this season given we signed Hojlund to sit on the bench?
Maybe you meant we should have signed Hojlund to sit on the bench, sure I would agree with that, and I guess then we wouldn't have forked out the money we did for him and signed a starting striker that summer or the next, but we didn't so... what does that tell you?
Yes because as stupid as it sounds that's exactly what happened.
Yeah, we should definitely sell our only striker, just to buy one striker and put ourselves right back into the same situation that has made it impossible to for Hojlund to adjust and develop properly.
As an added bonus, it will put added pressure on Obi, so our fans can immediately jump on his back when he isn't banging in a goal every game after his first 3 appearances and we can destroy his career before it starts like so many other players we seem to recently by putting unrealistic expectations on them.
As an added bonus, it will put added pressure on Obi, so our fans can immediately jump on his back when he isn't banging in a goal every game after his first 3 appearances and we can destroy his career before it starts like so many other players we seem to recently by putting unrealistic expectations on them.
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