Rasmus Hojlund (Out) | take performance chat to his performance thread

[Dion]

I don't think this to be the case, I think it's an example of signing a player who doesn't have outstanding talent and using time as a factor to force his development. It's based on the sentiment of hope as opposed to realistically evaluating the said players influence.

Julian Alvarez was a good young striker for City they took a risk signing him from River Plate. Isak scored 20 goals in the league second season as a young striker Newcastle took a risk on with Sociedad. If Greenwood had a much better sense of morality he would likely have been leading the line. None of these players were world class but they were talented. The fact there's only three examples is demonstrable of how limited the amount of talent there is for strikers in the market of which Rasmus is included.

Isak is also 25. He was older than Hojlund is now when they signed him. In his previous year at Sociedad he scored 6 in 32 in the league and only managed 10 goals in his first season in the PL. If Hojlund scores 10 goals next season their records will actually be incredibly similar This is one of those examples where giving a striker time is a good thing.

 

[bond19821982]

At 22 he really should have shown a lot more by now. I don't get this logic, he's obviously not good enough.

Can you name a 22 year old PL (either current or previous generation) who has shown lot "more" ? genuine question. can't think of many !

 

[DannyCAFC]

I guess strikers should not take penalties, the point of whoscored was to show he played most of his games as a central striker, the OP suggested he was not an out and out CF

Zirkzee has played most of his career at CF as well, doesn't make him one.

David is a second-striker type, he doesn't have the profile to play as a lone striker in an Amorim type system or for a top club in a difficult league successfully.

 

[Cassidy]

Zirkzee has played most of his career at CF as well, doesn't make him one.

David is a second-striker type, he doesn't have the profile to play as a lone striker in an Amorim type system or for a top club in a difficult league successfully.

It does, just makes him shit.

On David, like I said previously I am not advocating his signing (because I don't think he is good enough) but he's quite obviously a CF just not a top level one or one with the quality to play for United

 

[nmm85]

Might be wrong but has he filled out quite a bit this season or put a fair bit of muscle on? I wonder if it's taken him some time to get used to that. Could be one of the many reasons he's been so off...

 

[DannyCAFC]

It does, just makes him shit

Well no not really, hence why he's now playing regularly for United in a different position.

 

[Redstain]

Isak is also 25. He was older than Hojlund is now when they signed him. In his previous year at Sociedad he scored 6 in 32 in the league and only managed 10 goals in his first season in the PL. If Hojlund scores 10 goals next season their records will actually be incredibly similar This is one of those examples where giving a striker time is a good thing.

No that's a ridiculous comparison, Isak offers considerably more than Hojlund across the spectrum. He was also 22 when Newcastle signed him the exact same age Hojlund is now. But I also disagree with this ageist rhetoric, some players peak at younger ages and others older. Rashford had better seasons in his younger days compared to his concurrent age. The one metric that always accrues a footballers development is talent, not age. Ageing or time is simply the refining of that talent.

This is the statement by one of the La Liga journalists who covered the signing of Isak:

"Remember his release clause was €90m so it had to be close to that. I think it's a lot of money for him - maybe a little too much - but he's a player who can score goals. He's had streaks such as in 2019/20 when he scored 12 goals in 12 games, including against Barcelona and Real Madrid.

"Last season wasn't so great. He only scored six goals and his xG was 10.8. He was only the second player in La Liga with a negative xG than his actual goals. He's a streaky player but his ceiling is high. If you've got the money, why not?"

It's Isak's potential that has benefited his purchase at Newcastle, subjectively I fail to see how any spectator can watch Rasmus for 90 minutes week in week out and perceive that he has a high ceiling it's discombobulating.

Additionally, what we aren't taking into consideration is what Amorim actually requires of his striker, I've stated beforehand that Gyokores offers so much more than goals he's an all round striker who could easily do the job as a traditional false 9. If the demand for Amorim is for his striker to be pivotal in the phases of play Integrating during the build up, then Rasmus is simply the wrong profile all together.

 

[Cassidy]

Well no not really, hence why he's now playing regularly for United in a different position.

He won't be soon. He is playing somewhere else because he is more useful there for us (which is still not very useful)
He is still a CF (or a failed one) and until he shows over a number of seasons he's a quality no10 then he is still a shite CF, who is being transitioned into a new position.

Or maybe we want to call Kobbie Mainoo a false 9 or 10 because he has not been performing in his CM role and Amorim has been trying him in a new position?
Or maybe we want to call Mazroui a CB now because he's been filling in there this season (again under Amorim)

Playing 2 months in a position vs your whole career in another doesn't make you one vs the other

 

[DannyCAFC]

He won't be soon. He is playing somewhere else because he is more useful there for us (which is still not very useful)
He is still a CF (or a failed one) and until he shows over a number of seasons he's a quality no10 then he is still a shite CF, who is being transitioned into a new position.

Or maybe we want to call Kobbie Mainoo a false 9 or 10 because he has not been performing in his CM role and Amorim has been trying him in a new position?
Or maybe we want to call Mazroui a CB now because he's been filling in there this season (again under Amorim)

Mainoo probably is a 10 if you're talking about his best position fit in terms of attributes which is exactly what I'm talking about with Zirkzee and David.

Zirkzee can't finish, doesn't make forward runs and is poor in the air. But his passing and vision is decent, as is his touch and close control. Wouldn't you think that makes him more suited to playing in a deeper second-striker type role?

Shock horror, after looking shite playing as the CF in his system he's now playing in that role and looking much better.

 

[Dion]

No that's a ridiculous comparison, Isak offers considerably more than Hojlund across the spectrum. He was also 22 when Newcastle signed him the exact same age Hojlund is now. But I also disagree with this ageist rhetoric, some players peak at younger ages and others older. Rashford had better seasons in his younger days compared to his concurrent age. The one metric that always accrues a footballers development is talent, not age. Ageing or time is simply the refining of that talent.

This is the statement by one of the La Liga journalists who covered the signing of Isak:

"Remember his release clause was €90m so it had to be close to that. I think it's a lot of money for him - maybe a little too much - but he's a player who can score goals. He's had streaks such as in 2019/20 when he scored 12 goals in 12 games, including against Barcelona and Real Madrid.

"Last season wasn't so great. He only scored six goals and his xG was 10.8. He was only the second player in La Liga with a negative xG than his actual goals. He's a streaky player but his ceiling is high. If you've got the money, why not?"

It's Isak's potential that has benefited his purchase at Newcastle, subjectively I fail to see how any spectator can watch Rasmus for 90 minutes week in week out and perceive that he has a high ceiling it's discombobulating.

Additionally, what we aren't taking into consideration is what Amorim actually requires of his striker, I've stated beforehand that Gykores offers so much more than goals he's an all round striker who could easily do the job as a traditional false 9. If the demand for Amorim is for his striker to be pivotal in the phases of play beyond the build up, then Rasmus is simply the wrong profile all together.

Again, he's almost 3 years older. Isak signed a month before his 23rd birthday and Hojlund turned 22 last month.

And the point is not that every player is a late developer, it's that quite a lot of them are. Isak included. Some of them do not develop all the tools they need to exploit their talent until a bit older. Look at Harry Kane or Alan Shearer.

Does the whole streaky 20 year old "scores almost all his goals in bursts then has long barren spells" remind you of anyone else?

Yes he could, now. If you'd watched him at all in his time at Coventry that certainly wasn't the case.

 

[crossy1686]

If they’re willing to pay more than we paid for him then they can absolutely have him. He’d do well in Italy.

 

[Cassidy]

Mainoo probably is a 10 if you're talking about his best position fit in terms of attributes which is exactly what I'm talking about with Zirkzee and David.

Zirkzee can't finish, doesn't make forward runs and is poor in the air. But his passing and vision is decent, as is his touch and close control. Wouldn't you think that makes him more suited to playing in a deeper second-striker type role?

Shock horror, after looking shite playing as the CF in his system he's now playing in that role and looking much better.

I think he is not good enough to play for United full stop.

On Mainoo, I think it's funny that the whole of last season and the European Championships being ignored to suit the agenda is a bit weird. Not to mention that, actually he hasn't been that great in the 10 role anyway.

Also, he has many attributes which make him a really good CM, I would say he actually an 8, but CMs tend to take time to develop and Amorims system has great physical demands so it suits to play in the 10 position (for now)

 

[2 man midfield]

Surely there’s no way Napoli are in for Hojlund at 50m. They offered the same for Garnacho and wouldn’t budge. Same with the 25m for McTominay.

 

[stepic]

it really depends on who we’d have as our two strikers following his departure. In an ideal world we just bring a better striker in over the top of him, and use him as a second option. Maybe we think we can bring in a cheaper version of that secondary striker to complement whoever we sign to be our primary option.

 

[golden_blunder]

I understand if the club need money. Get that.

But last season he scored 17 times in his debut season for us.

This season obviously he’s got 8 in all comps and his first goal in 21 games. But think it’s fair to say that there are mitigating factors. New manager, new system. We’ve removed players (for good reason) from attacking positions who may have helped create chances for him (Rashford, Sancho, Antony). I’ve always felt that he has a good understanding with Rashford. Mainoo has been in terrible form this year and Eriksen is a year older and his legs have gone. This season his only support has been Zirkzee who is having his own struggles whilst settling, a 17 year old striker who hasn’t had much game time, garnacho who’d rather pass to himself and Amad who’s tried his best before injury.
Our wingbacks have taken time to settle and start providing chances. Dorgu is new and looks promising.
No winder hojlunds confidence has taken a battering. We haven’t really been given a good hand to be a scoring team.
RA said there would be pain before it starts getting better and i think our strikers epitomise that.

So I’d be prepared to keep him but we must bring another proven goalscorer in.

 

[Rozay]

RvP had as many 15 goal seasons in his first 6 years at Arsenal as Hojlund did in his first year at United, for what it's worth. At Hojlund's age he had 42 goals in 157 games.

At Hojlund's age Alan Shearer had 43 goals in 158 games at club level. Hojlund has 51 in 169. Gyokeres had 32 in 95 games (almost all of them in the Swedish league). Harry Kane had 21 goals in 91 games. Ollie Watkins had 47 goals in 151 in the lower leagues

I think people, really, really don't understand how hard it is to be a Premier League striker and how late most of them develop. None of that is to say Hojlund is guaranteed to end up being a really good player, but having long stretches without a goal, inconsistent busts of form and being heavily reliant on confidence is exactly what you expect from a striker who has just turned 22. I don't know if selling him is the right choice, it would depend on who was available to replace him, but if the suggestion is to just buy another prospect and see how they do then we'll be stuck in a never ending cycle because we're nowhere near the point where we can write of Hojlund yet.

Persie was injured for large portions of those seasons (aside from playing wide often). This is my frustration with watching football by numbers. Persie, even then, was so many levels above Hojlund. There is no comparison to be made between them at any stage of their PL careers.

 

[Cassidy]

Persie was injured for large portions of those seasons (aside from playing wide often). This is my frustration with watching football by numbers. Persie, even then, was so many levels above Hojlund. There is no comparison to be made between them at any stage of their PL careers.

Pretty much this

 

[Cutch]

Unless it's a financial necessity, I don't see much reason for a team that already needs to add a CF to sell one of its existing ones.

Hojlund is still only 22, and in his first season at in the PL his per 90 returns were in line with other B-tier CFs 5-8 years older than him.

PL rates of returns the same or worse than Hojlund's in bold. Also note that most of the better ones are only marginally better. Ages as of the start of this season.

Hojlund (21 years old): 0.17, 0.42.
Watkins (29 years old): 0.48, 0.53, 0.40, 0.30, 0.35
Toney (28 years old): 0.25, 0.43, 0.22
Solanke (27 years old): 0.35, 0.46, 0.19, 0.40
Jesus (27 years old): 0.44, 0.24, 0.44

I don't think it's much of a stretch to think he can develop into a similar B-tier striker given how low the bar is for PL CFs in this current era and how much younger he is than the above players.

If he needs to be sold to bring in a better CF, fine. But otherwise even if you don't rate him much, the upside would seem to be in simply keeping him as the 2nd choice CF we also need to have and hoping he reverts to returning at a similar level to the above. Because it still doesn't seem particularly unlikely he will in the long run.

Would agree with this. In his first season he had virtually the best conversion rate in the whole of the PL for strikers. In his second we had a radical change in formation/system where we've gone without wingers, had fullbacks providing all the width with the exception of Garnacho who doesn't pass to him and he's barely had a kick. In recent weeks he's actually looked decent while having zero confidence as the team has started to perform better in the system and getting numbers forward.

I don't think I want to give up on him yet until Amorim adds a couple more of his own players and we work towards a front foot style where our centre forward will regularly get chances and have players in the vicinity of him, to see if he can kick on from his first season. Also having another body that takes the strain of being our talisman off him a bit. If by the end of this calendar year he's still clearly struggling then I think its time to make a call on it.

 

[2 man midfield]

I understand if the club need money. Get that.

But last season he scored 17 times in his debut season for us.

This season obviously he’s got 8 in all comps and his first goal in 21 games. But think it’s fair to say that there are mitigating factors. New manager, new system. We’ve removed players (for good reason) from attacking positions who may have helped create chances for him (Rashford, Sancho, Antony). I’ve always felt that he has a good understanding with Rashford. Mainoo has been in terrible form this year and Eriksen is a year older and his legs have gone. This season his only support has been Zirkzee who is having his own struggles whilst settling, a 17 year old striker who hasn’t had much game time, garnacho who’d rather pass to himself and Amad who’s tried his best before injury.
Our wingbacks have taken time to settle and start providing chances. Dorgu is new and looks promising.
No winder hojlunds confidence has taken a battering. We haven’t really been given a good hand to be a scoring team.
RA said there would be pain before it starts getting better and i think our strikers epitomise that.

So I’d be prepared to keep him but we must bring another proven goalscorer in.

This is it, for me. If a mad offer comes in then have a look at it, but the plan should never have been for Rasmus to be our sole striker right away. It’s an insane amount of pressure, physically and mentally, to put on a 20 year old.

We should instead do what we should’ve done then. Buy the main striker and make Hojlund the back up. If we sell him then we need to buy 2 anyway.

 

[VP89]

Unless it's a financial necessity, I don't see much reason for a team that already needs to add a CF to sell one of its existing ones.

I'd certainly sell for a decent fee. It's clear he's lacking in too many areas and we are definitely in need of finances to restructure the squad. We have Chido now with Zirkzee as a forward. These can be options behind a fit new striker like Mateta maybe Osimhen if his injuries are behind him.

 

[Cassidy]

Would agree with this. In his first season he had virtually the best conversion rate in the whole of the PL for strikers. In his second we had a radical change in formation/system where we've gone without wingers, had fullbacks providing all the width with the exception of Garnacho who doesn't pass to him and he's barely had a kick. In recent weeks he's actually looked decent while having zero confidence as the team has started to perform better in the system and getting numbers forward.

I don't think I want to give up on him yet until Amorim adds a couple more of his own players and we work towards a front foot style where our centre forward will regularly get chances and have players in the vicinity of him, to see if he can kick on from his first season. Also having another body that takes the strain of being our talisman off him a bit. If by the end of this calendar year he's still clearly struggling then I think its time to make a call on it.

I don't think the issue is his finishing ability, its the other parts of his game that are major obstacles for him. Sure he can improve but you also have to be mindful to what is available in the market and make sure you are not keeping a player just because you already have them if there is better available.

 

[Rozay]

If Hojlund scores 6 or 7 goals in April, I’m certain that come December, many will simply be saying ‘he had a good season last year’ because he scored 10 goals.That’s pretty much what happened last season. He’s been unimpressive in probably 70% of the games he’s ever played for us. Over a decent sample size. I think if someone offers you £50m for such a player you have to take it.

 

[Red00012]

If we could get 50 million back for him it would be great business

 

[Redstain]

Persie was injured for large portions of those seasons (aside from playing wide often). This is my frustration with watching football by numbers. Persie, even then, was so many levels above Hojlund. There is no comparison to be made between them at any stage of their PL careers.

Not only so but having arguably the best striker in the leagues history in front of him wouldn't help either.

I actually don't think having an established striker ahead of Raamus aids him, young players need games and especially one so limited. Only a loan under those circumstances would be ideal.

Given the pressure associated with United and the demand, would any fan in their right mind when an Osimhen / Gyokores (hypothetically) scoring on a regular basis and helping the team say bring them off Rasmus needs to develop? The striker in front of him would be needed for almost every competition maybe with the exception of the early stages of domestic cups.

 

[Dion]

Persie was injured for large portions of those seasons (aside from playing wide often). This is my frustration with watching football by numbers. Persie, even then, was so many levels above Hojlund. There is no comparison to be made between them at any stage of their PL careers.

He played wide less than 1/5th of his total games, and in the games he did play as a lone striker he scored 11 in his first 31 at Hojlund's age and 35 in 81 in his first 6 years at Arsenal.

And my frustration with relying on imperfect memory, rose tinted glasses and hindsight is that people wash away the negative aspects of a players game because they ended up being the player you remember.

RvP was wildly inconsistent, technically clearly exceptional but lacked awareness and physicality to ever look like he would be an elite center forward who could lead the line. If you'd gone around telling people he was going to be a 30 goal a season striker back in 2006 or 7 you'd have been laughed out of the place. But that's the thing, players improve and develop.

 

[Rozay]

He played wide less than 1/5th of his total games, and in the games he did play as a lone striker he scored 11 in his first 31 at Hojlund's age and 35 in 81 in his first 6 years at Arsenal.

And my frustration with relying on imperfect memory, rose tinted glasses and hindsight is that people wash away the negative aspects of a players game because they ended up being the player you remember.

RvP was wildly inconsistent, technically clearly exceptional but lacked awareness and physicality to ever look like he would be an elite center forward who could lead the line. If you'd gone around telling people he was going to be a 30 goal a season striker back in 2006 or 7 you'd have been laughed out of the place. But that's the thing, players improve and develop.

35 in 81 are very good numbers. I’m probably the biggest Van Persie fan in the world, I’ve made several threads on him over the years, and I have said he was the best striker in the PL from before his 30 goal season at Arsenal. His biggest issue in his early years were injuries, which contributed heavily to the narrative that he had only a couple of WC seasons in England. He was regularly missing 50% of the season in his early days, but scored with good regularity when he was fit. He scored winning goals against United, City and Chelsea I remember. Beautiful goals too. I remember him scoring two at Stamford Bridge for example in a league game way before his 30 goal season.

Even the season before his 30 goal season, he nearly won the PL golden boot despite missing the first half of the season. Came back in January and set a PL record for scoring in consecutive away games and got 18 goals I think despite missing about half the season.

In short, nothing Persie achieved in his career should be used to draw any comparison with Hojlund. The difference in talent between them could not be bigger. I’m frankly outraged at any sort of suggestion that Hojlund can do something simply because Persie did it!

 

[Redstain]

Again, he's almost 3 years older. Isak signed a month before his 23rd birthday and Hojlund turned 22 last month.

And the point is not that every player is a late developer, it's that quite a lot of them are. Isak included. Some of them do not develop all the tools they need to exploit their talent until a bit older. Look at Harry Kane or Alan Shearer.

Does the whole streaky 20 year old "scores almost all his goals in bursts then has long barren spells" remind you of anyone else?

Yes he could, now. If you'd watched him at all in his time at Coventry that certainly wasn't the case.

I think your missing the most crucial point the journalist made, the streaky player is not being said in conjunction with Isak as a positive it's a negative criteria to assess the player with. What the journalist said as the crescendo of his argument is he has a high ceiling. The ceiling causes Newcastle / scouts to overlook his deficiency in being streaky therefore, Newcastle paid for Isak on the premise of his ceiling more than anything else.

Rasmus does not have a high ceiling, Isak offers you movement off the ball, in possession, he's one of the best technical players in the league. He's also excellent dribbling, can drop the shoulder and lose his marker. He can get on the end of his teams contribution and just as easily make the chance for himself. He's comfortably a better finisher and is clinical. He's far stronger than Hojlund so has physicality over him, he can comfortably play with his back to goal etc. Three years won't change that dynamic between the two players, talent does that's just God given genetics.

Many of these traits would have been demonstrable while he was in La Liga, Isak has not changed his attacking profile in any way shape or form, but his move to the league has amplified many of these aspects. He was viewed as a failure at Dortmund so moved abroad, didn't do anything outstanding at La Liga but always possessed talent.

Hojlund likely had the better career compared to Isak given their professional infancies but where Raamus doesn't contend is the talent. United signed a young player for 70 million with very little talent. The talent narrative of Hojlund is not going to change and it's likely why he's at risk of being sold.

 

[Rozay]

I think your missing the most crucial point the journalist made, the streaky player is not being said in conjunction with Isak as a positive it's a negative criteria to assess the player with. What the journalist said as the crescendo of his argument is he has a high ceiling. The ceiling causes Newcastle / scouts to overlook his deficiency in being streaky therefore, Newcastle paid for Isak on the premise of his ceiling more than anything else.

Rasmus does not have a high ceiling, Isak offers you movement off the ball, in possession, he's one of the best technical players in the league. He's also excellent dribbling, can drop the shoulder and lose his marker. He can get on the end of his teams contribution and just as easily make the chance for himself. He's comfortably a better finisher and is clinical. He's far stronger than Hojlund so has physicality over him, he can comfortably play with his back to goal etc.

Many of these traits would have been demonstrable while he was in La Liga, Isak has not changed his attacking profile in any way shape or form, but his move to the league has amplified many of these aspects. He was viewed as a failure at Dortmund so moved abroad, didn't do anything outstanding at La Liga but always possessed talent.

Hojlund likely had the better career compared to Isak given their professional infancies but where Raamus doesn't contend is the talent. United signed a young player for 70 million with very little talent. The talent narrative of Hojlund is not going to change and it's likely why he's at risk of being sold.

This. Whenever I read hopeful posts on Hojlund, they always seem to include a long list of strengths people are hoping he somehow learns, that he has shown no propensity towards so far. Almost like if we can just teach him how to play football, we may have a player. The talent is very low. There are so many qualities that he has shown little to no proficiency in that some are hoping he not only develops, but develops to a level to place him in an elite category.

It’s a far smaller list to list the qualities he does have than those that he doesn’t.

 

[Dion]

35 in 81 are very good numbers. I’m probably the biggest Van Persie fan in the world, I’ve made several threads on him over the years, and I have said he was the best striker in the PL from before his 30 goal season at Arsenal. His biggest issue in his early years were injuries, which contributed heavily to the narrative that he had only a couple of WC seasons in England. He was regularly missing 50% of the season in his early days, but scored with good regularity when he was fit. He scored winning goals against United, City and Chelsea I remember. Beautiful goals too. I remember him scoring two at Stamford Bridge for example in a league game way before his 30 goal season.

Even the season before his 30 goal season, he nearly won the PL golden boot despite missing the first half of the season. Came back in January and set a PL record for scoring in consecutive away games and got 18 goals I think despite missing about half the season.

In short, nothing Persie achieved in his career should be used to draw any comparison with Hojlund. The difference in talent between them could not be bigger. I’m frankly outraged at any sort of suggestion that Hojlund can do something simply because Persie did it!

I'd argue 35 in 81 are pretty middling numbers for a central striker between the ages of 20 and 26, playing in a team that was generally top 3-4. And also a large part of the reason why Wenger flirted with Bendtner, Adebayor, Eduardo and even Baptista to lead the line instead of him.

And yes, you're describing the period after he came back from injury at the start of 2011 and suddenly started putting in world class numbers. And this is colouring your vision of the player RvP was before this. RvP took 6 years to develop into a player who was capable of leading the line for a top PL side, I'm sure some of that was slowed down by injuries, but you only needed to look at him at the age of 22-23 to see he was a long, long way from being that player.

 

[Cassidy]

I'd argue 35 in 81 are pretty middling numbers for a central striker between the ages of 20 and 26, playing in a team that was generally top 3-4. And also a large part of the reason why Wenger flirted with Bendtner, Adebayor, Eduardo and even Baptista to lead the line instead of him.

And yes, you're describing the period after he came back from injury at the start of 2011 and suddenly started putting in world class numbers. And this is colouring your vision of the player RvP was before this. RvP took 6 years to develop into a player who was capable of leading the line for a top PL side, I'm sure some of that was slowed down by injuries, but you only needed to look at him at the age of 22-23 to see he was a long, long way from being that player.

Van Persie was not signed as a striker that's the main reason they signed other strikers and they played as a striker ahead of him. He was developed as a striker and transitioned there full time later on.

Either way Van Persie whether playing wide or as a CF was a better player than Hojlund at the same age

 

[rotherham_red]

Persie was injured for large portions of those seasons (aside from playing wide often). This is my frustration with watching football by numbers. Persie, even then, was so many levels above Hojlund. There is no comparison to be made between them at any stage of their PL careers.

He (RVP) also was a wide player for the most part during that period

 

[astracrazy]

Can you name a 22 year old PL (either current or previous generation) who has shown lot "more" ? genuine question. can't think of many !

Are you serious? You geniunly can't think of many players who are/were better than Hojlund when under the age of 23? When did you start watching football?

 

[Cassidy]

Can you name a 22 year old PL (either current or previous generation) who has shown lot "more" ? genuine question. can't think of many !

Are you being serious? Maybe you would have a point if you stuck with strikers in this current generation in the PL, but when you include previous generations, forget it

 

[FrankDrebin]

Now come on, it's not just the goals with Hojlund is it ? Its the question of his all round technical ability which seems evidently mediocre.

 

[Dion]

I think your missing the most crucial point the journalist made, the streaky player is not being said in conjunction with Isak as a positive it's a negative criteria to assess the player with. What the journalist said as the crescendo of his argument is he has a high ceiling. The ceiling causes Newcastle / scouts to overlook his deficiency in being streaky therefore, Newcastle paid for Isak on the premise of his ceiling more than anything else.

Rasmus does not have a high ceiling, Isak offers you movement off the ball, in possession, he's one of the best technical players in the league. He's also excellent dribbling, can drop the shoulder and lose his marker. He can get on the end of his teams contribution and just as easily make the chance for himself. He's comfortably a better finisher and is clinical. He's far stronger than Hojlund so has physicality over him, he can comfortably play with his back to goal etc. Three years won't change that dynamic between the two players, talent does that's just God given genetics.

Many of these traits would have been demonstrable while he was in La Liga, Isak has not changed his attacking profile in any way shape or form, but his move to the league has amplified many of these aspects. He was viewed as a failure at Dortmund so moved abroad, didn't do anything outstanding at La Liga but always possessed talent.

Hojlund likely had the better career compared to Isak given their professional infancies but where Raamus doesn't contend is the talent. United signed a young player for 70 million with very little talent. The talent narrative of Hojlund is not going to change and it's likely why he's at risk of being sold.

It's very clearly not though. It's being said as a positive "he can score goals". His goal runs are evidence of his capability to score more consistently with the right coaching and environment. That makes sense, because to score a run of goals you have to have the capability to do it in the first place.

I think a lot of that later stuff is just nonsense to be honest. Hojlund is clearly physically very gifted, he's fast, strong and technically sound. His finishing is far more than passable, in fact before this season it was statistically better than Isak's. I'm sure you'd have been saying the exact same thing about Harry Kane, Gyokeres or Shearer at the time too. It's very easy to see the potential in flair-y players who are adapt at dribbling, it's harder to be patient with players who rely more on movement, structure and experience.

 

[Rozay]

I'd argue 35 in 81 are pretty middling numbers for a central striker between the ages of 20 and 26, playing in a team that was generally top 3-4. And also a large part of the reason why Wenger flirted with Bendtner, Adebayor, Eduardo and even Baptista to lead the line instead of him.

And yes, you're describing the period after he came back from injury at the start of 2011 and suddenly started putting in world class numbers. And this is colouring your vision of the player RvP was before this. RvP took 6 years to develop into a player who was capable of leading the line for a top PL side, I'm sure some of that was slowed down by injuries, but you only needed to look at him at the age of 22-23 to see he was a long, long way from being that player.

My vision is definitely not coloured, he had several spells before 2011 where he was very impressive, and put up big performances (as I mentioned) but his career was blighted by injury (as evidenced by 81 appearances between 20 and 26). He barely got to feature with consistency, and at times, he did not play as a centre forward. When he played with any regularity - he was class. Hojlund is not even remotely close to being as good as the player he was before 2011. Persie’s problem was an inability to stay fit, but he was supremely talented in a way that Hojlund so obviously isn’t.

 

[Dion]

Van Persie was not signed as a striker that's the main reason they signed other strikers and they played as a striker ahead of him. He was developed as a striker and transitioned there full time later on.

Either way Van Persie whether playing wide or as a CF was a better player than Hojlund at the same age

Van Persie played more as a central striker than out wide in 5 of his first 6 seasons, the only one he didn't was when Henry was largely injured. In the next 3 he played a support role to other strikers because he wasn't read to lead the line.

The bolded bit is quite important though, because it took RvP almost 6 years to be ready to do that for Arsenal, and he certainly wasn't out performing Hojlund when he was 21-22, and he was playing in a much, much better team.

 

[dubplate warrior]

Now come on, it's not just the goals with Hojlund is it ? Its the question of his all round technical ability which seems evidently mediocre.

It's not just about goals though, it's his general state of play. It's absolutely shocking.

Can't use his body, terrible technique (which won't improve with age), not good at ball striking and his movement is awful. I've seen strikers who don't score a lot at his age, but they have far more to work with. Expecting Hojlund to suddenly become a world beater would mean he'd need to improve at all of these things. But he simply doesn't have it in his locker. That's what I mean by showing enough by the age of 22.

We've got to become more ruthless as a club.

 

[Dion]

My vision is definitely not coloured, he had several spells before 2011 where he was very impressive, and put up big performances (as I mentioned) but his career was blughted by injury. He barely got to feature with consistency, and at times, he did not play as a centre forward. When he played with any regularity - he was class. Hojlund is not even remotely close to being as good as the player he was before 2011.

I mean it definitely is. You only have to look at his performances in his first couple of seasons at Arsenal to see he was incredibly raw and nowhere near ready to be the main goal scorer for Arsenal. In his first season the only top half team he scored against was Everton in a 7-0 thrashing and it wasn't until the start of 2007 that he scored against one of Man Utd, Liverpool or Chelsea and not until 2009 that he scored a CL knockout goal. He took a long time to get going as a player, it happens.

 

[Rozay]

I mean it definitely is. You only have to look at his performances in his first couple of seasons at Arsenal to see he was incredibly raw and nowhere near ready to be the main goal scorer for Arsenal. In his first season the only top half team he scored against was Everton in a 7-0 thrashing and it wasn't until the start of 2007 that he scored against one of Man Utd, Liverpool or Chelsea and not until 2009 that he scored a CL knockout goal. He took a long time to get going as a player, it happens.

I’m not. He obviously wasn’t the 2013 version of himself in his first seasons, that isn’t the argument. He was a quality young player who showed many examples of that (again, despite missing large amounts of football in his early years). Hojlund has shown no such levels of ability in comparison.

I cannot believe I am engaging in any sort of comparison or debate between Rasmus Hojlund and Robin van Persie, this isn’t good for my health, I will leave you be.