Reaction of the fans to Moyes' struggles

[Rozay]

We've just been outplayed by West Brom and in the late stages of the game by Southampton in two consecutive league games at Old Trafford, having barely beaten Crystal Palace and Sunderland in the meantime. I'd say if Mark Hughes turns up with similar set of results at Stoke their fans will be disappointed as well.

We shouldn't lower our expectations down to the region of Hull City just because we don't have Sir Alex. People keep digging out certain statistics from the past as if they held any genuine relevance - even if we end up 9th after 30 games someone will find a table from 1930-31 that shows us 9th after 31 games and 3rd after season ends or summat.

This has been my main point too. Given the fact that we have lost Fergie, is there nothing that constitutes a 'bad season' anymore? I've said that it is as if Fergie going has given everyone at the club a free pass, in the sense that we can apparently stoop to any standard on the basis that 'we knew it would be tough'.

The neutrals, on the basis of acknowledging that despite being champions, knew losing Fergie would affect us, put as at 3rd favourites. We are now seemingly adjusting that further. Does that further adjustment represent failure/under-achievement even in light of the fact that we lost our manager, or was even 3rd an unrealistic expectation?

I would like to get an idea of what constitutes a poor season. Does the fact that we lost Fergie mean that anything other than relegation is a success? Does it mean anything above than mid-table is a success? A Europa League spot? CL spot? or title fight?

There is currently no accountability amongst the players and manager because nobody seems to be willing to say that, even in light of us losing our manager, we should still expect x, and inability to achieve 'x' by Moyes is a failure on his part. So far this season, 'x' seems to be getting adjusted by the week. There has to be an idea of what will be a good season for Moyes. Not a good season for Fergie, but for David Moyes. His season must be measurable.

 

[Salfordlad70]

I dread to think what sort of discussions we'd have been having after 8 games of with Fergie, or even after 8 games of the 1989/90 season.

Moyes has been given the poisoned chalice to replace Fergie, forget what he said about not being able to turn the job down, I'm sure he had to think long and hard before saying yes. To take over someone like Fergie, when history has shown that very few succeed quickly after replacing a legend like Fergie is a brave decision. Were we to win anything this year, it's Fergie's team, any sort of failure it's going to be all on Moyes. Having been around to know the bad times, it's perhaps a bit easier to sit and watch the team struggle as they are. Rest assured though, if we don't win anything this year, we make some shrewd signings in January and the summer, and next season win the league back, it will feel as good as it did in 2003. I'm starting to enjoy this season, and will give Moyes my support and backing and even if we finish 5th or lower, I'd still keep him for next year, as I think he's actually been given a much harder job than most think, as I'm not 100% sure this squad is as strong as we thought it was.

You're right.The squad isn't as strong as some people think.On paper perhaps but not in reality.He does need time to put his stamp on the team and must be given time.Worth remembering also that SAF had a team that never really looked like taking the title for three seasons from 04 onwards and that team included Ruud,Ronaldo and Rooney.Not to mention Paul Scholes and Rio close to their peak!! It will resolve itself soon I expect and we'll be laughing again.We sometimes have to suffer a few lows to appreciate the highs!

 

[Still ill]

This has been my main point too. Given the fact that we have lost Fergie, is there nothing that constitutes a 'bad season' anymore? I've said that it is as if Fergie going has given everyone at the club a free pass, in the sense that we can apparently stoop to any standard on the basis that 'we knew it would be tough'.

The neutrals, on the basis of acknowledging that despite being champions, knew losing Fergie would affect us, put as at 3rd favourites. We are now seemingly adjusting that further. Does that further adjustment represent failure/under-achievement even in light of the fact that we lost our manager, or was even 3rd an unrealistic expectation?

I would like to get an idea of what constitutes a poor season. Does the fact that we lost Fergie mean that anything other than relegation is a success? Does it mean anything above than mid-table is a success? A Europa League spot? CL spot? or title fight?

There is currently no accountability amongst the players and manager because nobody seems to be willing to say that, even in light of us losing our manager, we should still expect x, and inability to achieve 'x' by Moyes is a failure on his part. So far this season, 'x' seems to be getting adjusted by the week. There has to be an idea of what will be a good season for Moyes. Not a good season for Fergie, but for David Moyes. His season must be measurable.

3rd is a reasonable expectation. Is anybody saying this is not still achievable? All the saner heads on here are saying is the general panic in evidence at the moment is unwarrented. If Moyes has not identified his favoured players and stamped an identifiable style on the team by Christmas, I will be concerned. Results are not the most important thing at the moment but nobody is saying we shouldn't have ambitions to still be competitive.

 

[Steven Seagull]

My head says he should be given at least 2 transfer windows to see what he can achieve. His inclusion of Januzaj kind of shits on the theory he wants to play boring long ball football, but there needs to be more pace injected into the side. Fellaini was the absolute opposite of what I think we need in midfield and Neville echoed those thoughts in the guardian.

It was imperative that we got another midfielder in and in a weird way, I hope Fellaini was a last resort for Moyes and not somebody he was really pushing for all summer. He's going to have to spend some money in January and next summer, I just don't really trust him with it. I mean, did we really bid £40m for Khedira? I fecking hope not.

 

[b82REZ]

My head says he should be given at least 2 transfer windows to see what he can achieve. His inclusion of Januzaj kind of shits on the theory he wants to play boring long ball football, but there needs to be more pace injected into the side. Fellaini was the absolute opposite of what I think we need in midfield and Neville echoed those thoughts in the guardian.

It was imperative that we got another midfielder in and in a weird way, I hope Fellaini was a last resort for Moyes and not somebody he was really pushing for all summer. He's going to have to spend some money in January and next summer, I just don't really trust him with it. I mean, did we really bid £40m for Khedira? I fecking hope not.

Fellaini was a target all summer, but as one of the two midfielders Moyes wanted. I believe the intention was to get a defensive and offensive midfielder. I see Fellaini as Carricks long term replacement (position wise not play style).

 

[Rolandofgilead]

I will be the first to afmit I had a mini meltdown on Saturday, but I was furious with Welbeck who I felt was at fault for their goal (and still do having seen it again several times) and added nothing to our attack.

But on the whole, I didn't think the performance was that bad and we certainly weren't outplayed by any stretch of the imagination.

It's the tactics used away to City that worried me most, setting up with a flat 4-4-2 was suicide, Fellaini has looked out of his depth so far and in that game he was probably Citys best player, but like Moyes, he needs a bit of time.

The transfer window was an absolute joke, but a change in manager and chief exec means that can only get better.

There are some positives too. He reacted fairly swiftly and got Januzaj to sign a new 5-year deal, Nani has foind a good level of consistency and Wayne Rooney has been a revelation.

Idiots will react to every missed pass or missed interception. But realistically we are 8 points off yhe top and it's October, we have never been statistically strong starters and we will soon put a run togeather and climb up the table.

Southampton were not given anywhere near enough credit on saturday, the pressed us high up the pitch, their passing and movement was superb and considering we beat them twice last season with a 1-0 at old trafford with a much worse performance and a 3-2 at St Mary's after being behind twice and winning it in added time, I would say they are no mugs. They also have the best defensive record in the division.

I'm not making excuses, I just think teams like Southampton and West Brom deserve alot of credit for their performances.

 

[sglowrider]

At the end of the day, I cant imagine United playing or grinding out results as bad as this. I think this is as bad as it gets.

Only way is up.

 

[#07]

Fellaini was a target all summer, but as one of the two midfielders Moyes wanted. I believe the intention was to get a defensive and offensive midfielder. I see Fellaini as Carricks long term replacement (position wise not play style).

If Fellaini is Carrick's long term replacement that's a huge problem because his defensive work is not good enough for that role. Both Witsel and Demebele are better than Fellaini at that job, as shown by the national team set up and frankly I'd rate Lass Diarra, Felipe Melo etc. as better holding midfielders than Fellaini.

Frankly, we needed two centre midfielders in the summer and we still do. A proper ball carrier in the mould of Wilshere or Gundogan, maybe that boy Ander Herrera? And a proper defensive midfielder who is mobile enough to get around, get stuck in and emerge with the ball like the players I've mentioned above. Fellaini, to me, is another number 10.

In terms of fans reaction to Moyes I'd like to take issue with talk about agendas, not from you, but in general as I've seen it from one or two posters.

I'm going to be open and say I didn't want David Moyes to be our manager but from the day he took the job I have hoped he'd do well, I continue to do so. Why? Because if Moyes fails, United fail and only an imbecile would want their team to do badly just because the guy in charge wasn't their first choice to replace the previous boss. Is anyone happy right now? Does anyone feel good on a Monday morning seeing the table, looking up at Liverpool and City? Its an absolute nonsense to suggest United fans want Moyes to do badly. If United won their next 30 games and romped to the title not one of us wouldn't be willing, not only to say we were wrong to doubt Moyes, but to bow down before the man.

What people cannot expect, however, is for us to ignore the evidence of our eyes. He's not, right now, making the right calls. He's not, right now, imposing the style he had at Everton which was compact and hard to beat on United. He's not, right now, giving some players the chances they deserve while giving others who aren't in good form appearance after appearance e.g. Nani for Giggs at the weekend (what..?) We want to see it change and we're willing to say so.

There is a genuine fear that we might be battling with Liverpool for 4th while City, Chelsea and Arsenal finish above us. Can you imagine how crap you'd feel if Liverpool prevented us from getting into the Champions League?

 

[manusteve]

The argument is not so much that Moyes doesn't deserve time to shape the team as he prefers. For me, he just hasn't achieved anything as a manager/coach. What can Moyes say? "I've won trophies before and I'l do it again". He's going into unknown territory, however close he's been to winning a trophy in the past.

 

[b82REZ]

If Fellaini is Carrick's long term replacement that's a huge problem because his defensive work is not good enough for that role. Both Witsel and Demebele are better than Fellaini at that job, as shown by the national team set up and frankly I'd rate Lass Diarra, Felipe Melo etc. as better holding midfielders than Fellaini.

Frankly, we needed two centre midfielders in the summer and we still do. A proper ball carrier in the mould of Wilshere or Gundogan, maybe that boy Ander Herrera? And a proper defensive midfielder who is mobile enough to get around, get stuck in and emerge with the ball like the players I've mentioned above. Fellaini, to me, is another number 10.

In terms of fans reaction to Moyes I'd like to take issue with talk about agendas, not from you, but in general as I've seen it from one or two posters.

I'm going to be open and say I didn't want David Moyes to be our manager but from the day he took the job I have hoped he'd do well, I continue to do so. Why? Because if Moyes fails, United fail and only an imbecile would want their team to do badly just because the guy in charge wasn't their first choice to replace the previous boss. Is anyone happy right now? Does anyone feel good on a Monday morning seeing the table, looking up at Liverpool and City? Its an absolute nonsense to suggest United fans want Moyes to do badly. If United won their next 30 games and romped to the title not one of us wouldn't be willing, not only to say we were wrong to doubt Moyes, but to bow down before the man.

What people cannot expect, however, is for us to ignore the evidence of our eyes. He's not, right now, making the right calls. He's not, right now, imposing the style he had at Everton which was compact and hard to beat on United. He's not, right now, giving some players the chances they deserve while giving others who aren't in good form appearance after appearance e.g. Nani for Giggs at the weekend (what..?) We want to see it change and we're willing to say so.

There is a genuine fear that we might be battling with Liverpool for 4th while City, Chelsea and Arsenal finish above us. Can you imagine how crap you'd feel if Liverpool prevented us from getting into the Champions League?

Sums up my feelings regarding it. Never really rated him as a manager (although Everton did play good stuff at times), he also always seems to ruin strikers. We are seeing some real problems with our attacking play, which I believe needs to be attributed to Moyes.

IMO a short term selection (a Mourinho for example) would have steadied the ship and allowed us to remain competitive while slowly moving out of Fergies shadow. To my mind there are only a handful of coaches who could step up to the mantle after Fergie and kept us successful. As a club (fans and board alike) we seemed obsessed with stability in the long term, I just feel during our biggest ever transition a short term plan would have suited us better. I would like our manager to remain for an extended period but I feel the task may be too much for Moyes (this season at least).

It is imperative we remain in the top 4, and I believe the Glazers will back him in January to help ensure this. I do expect us to reach that target but I fully expect a turbulent season with dropped points throughout. Moyes need to improve the home form, as at times he looks over awed by it all. His substitution choices are often baffling and rarely have an influence on the game. It a huge learning curve and he needs to adapt quickly. I will back him wholeheartedly while he's manager but if our results don't take an upturn soon the pitchforks will being sharpened by large parts of the supporters.

 

[sajeev]

I didn't want Moyes but preferred him to having the Mourinho circus. We were on cruise mode with Fergie, and anyone coming in would have had issues. After the way our summer went,I am not surprised by the issues we are having. We simply needed to do something about our midfield and failed to do that. The blame for that should go to the club's top management's inept handling of the transfer market. At the same time, it showed us what Moyes was going to do. He is going to take his time to come to a judgement. He seems to be willing to make mistakes, to get his own perspective right. I think that is great with the long-term in view.

That also means, he will appear to be conservative, when he is just taking his time to collect data before making the decision. However, he has done things which show that he is on the right track. For example, the ditching of Young after giving him enough chances. I think he will also give players the chance to get things right before resting them. Case in point being the change in defence after realizing the need for change. The only place he is really handicapped is in the midfield. Part of it, is due to making the decision to buy Felliani and the other is the injury to Cleverley. If he can be radical with a solution to that I think we will see things fall into place soon. I also think he needs to have more mid-fielders before he can try other formations, as well as be brave to drop one of Rooney or RvP.

So I think the fans who continue to support him are absolutely spot on. I think we should let him take more time to get things right. I wasn't confident of it even after the first few matches, but I slowly see improvement and I am sure we will laugh about this period. As for those you are all upset, I think their concerns are very valid, because I can see where they are coming for as I think that way too. However, when I consider the fact that Moyes has been achieving well above expectations for some time and has been chosen by a man with amazing vision of how things pan out, then I looked at how he has gone about things. I haven't liked most of it, but I can still see what he is doing and how it will bring us success in the long term if he continues to be our manager. I just hope we get out of this rut without too much damage.

And people pointing to the 2003-06 period are right in that, even with some amazing talent, things can still go wrong because of one mis-functioning part (which at that time too was the midfield due to Scholes' eye problems and Keane's waning, and buying Djemba-Djemba, Fletcher settling in, etc). However, once we got it right we had a really good period of success. And it happened just with one player coming in, and other talent coming of age. It doesn't take a lot to set things right especially with the set-up we already have. I think Moyes has it in him to get it right. Therefore the extreme reaction of some fans is unfortunate but again not unexpected (people wanted Fergie out during the 2004-06 period).

 

[Adebesi]

is there nothing that constitutes a 'bad season' anymore?

There is a bad season and there is a sackable season. Some people dont seem to make a distinction. We could have a pretty bad season by our standards but still not judge it to be sackable. Patience does not mean you have to like what you are being forced to endure, it means you believe by enduring it you will ultimately be rewarded with something better. It means you do not necessarily believe a quick decision will rectify the underlying problem - and that time is what will deliver it. So yes, absolutely we could have a bad season this season. Coming 4th would not be a good season, but it would hardly be the end of the world. Failing to qualify for the CL next season would be a bad season, but what it would mean for Moyes would depend on how much progress we had made, whether things looked like they were going to get better. It would all be very subjective, opinions would be deeply divided. Some would argue he should be given more time if he seemed to have a clearer idea of what was needed to turn it around, if they believed he would be decisive in the transfer market to fix our shortcomings and if we looked more coherent towards the end of the season than we did at the beginning.

 

[Rozay]

There is a bad season and there is a sackable season. Some people dont seem to make a distinction. We could have a pretty bad season by our standards but still not judge it to be sackable. Patience does not mean you have to like what you are being forced to endure, it means you believe by enduring it you will ultimately be rewarded with something better. It means you do not necessarily believe a quick decision will rectify the underlying problem - and that time is what will deliver it. So yes, absolutely we could have a bad season this season. Coming 4th would not be a good season, but it would hardly be the end of the world. Failing to qualify for the CL next season would be a bad season, but what it would mean for Moyes would depend on how much progress we had made, whether things looked like they were going to get better. It would all be very subjective, opinions would be deeply divided. Some would argue he should be given more time if he seemed to have a clearer idea of what was needed to turn it around, if they believed he would be decisive in the transfer market to fix our shortcomings and if we looked more coherent towards the end of the season than we did at the beginning.

I'm not really concerned with a bad season by 'our standards'. It is clear that such standards have been a title fight. I want to know what a bad season for Moyes is, because it seems some are moving those particular goal posts by the game.

And there is no way we can assess 4th or missing out on 4th in the light of 'how much progress has been made', given that it will still have taken us backwards in the space of just one season.

Football is still a results business, and even if we are willing to allow not competing for the title, I can't believe that there is not a point that we will NOT allow. Personally, I believe dropping from first to fourth is a reasonable enough amount of leeway for Moyes, and taking us even further backwards than that is too much. Others may disagree, for them it may be Europa League, or 10th, or simply not being relegated. Either way, there must be a point where we can say 'this has not been good enough'.

Even in Moyes much fabled 'miracle work' with Everton, there was an expectation, both in his very first season and his very last. He was not expected to win them the league, but if he took them down, he would have failed and been sacked. Expectations are relative, but there must be KPIs in every business.

I don't support this one or two season free pass some are implying.

 

[Adebesi]

I'm not really concerned with a bad season by 'our standards'. It is clear that such standards have been a title fight. I want to know what a bad season for Moyes is, because it seems some are moving those particular goal posts by the game.

And there is no way we can assess 4th or missing out on 4th in the light of 'how much progress has been made', given that it will still have taken us backwards in the space of just one season.

Football is still a results business, and even if we are willing to allow not competing for the title, I can't believe that there is not a point that we will NOT allow. Personally, I believe dropping from first to fourth is a reasonable enough amount of leeway for Moyes, and taking us even further backwards than that is too much. Others may disagree, for them it may be Europa League, or 10th, or simply not being relegated. Either way, there must be a point where we can say 'this has not been good enough'.

Even in Moyes much fabled 'miracle work' with Everton, there was an expectation, both in his very first season and his very last. He was not expected to win them the league, but if he took them down, he would have failed and been sacked. Expectations are relative, but there must be KPIs in every business.

I don't support this one or two season free pass some are implying.

Yeah I wouldnt say a free pass.

I never liked KPIs. You set KPIs, you invite people to game the system, to achieve one target at the expense of other equally important targets that have not been so rigidly defined. You can almost always game the system that way in my experience. As far as football is concerned, as far as Moyes' first season at United is concerned at least, I dont think KPIs are appropriate. Or I dont think the decision should be made with regard to KPIs without making a more qualitative assessment as well.

 

[Rozay]

Yeah I wouldnt say a free pass.

I never liked KPIs. You set KPIs, you invite people to game the system, to achieve one target at the expense of other equally important targets that have not been so rigidly defined. You can almost always game the system that way in my experience. As far as football is concerned, as far as Moyes' first season at United is concerned at least, I dont think KPIs are appropriate. Or I dont think the decision should be made with regard to KPIs without making a more qualitative assessment as well.

Yea, I was sceptical about using that term myself.

Okay, put simply - at what stage/circumstance would you feel Moyes has underachieved to the point where he would have to go?

 

[Adebesi]

As I keep saying it is very hard to put it so simply when there are so many variables. I while back I was arguing on here that unless things were going catastrophically Id like to see him given two full seasons. That would give him a season to establish himself and learn all about the resources at his disposal. A summer to then make changes to those resources, having worked with them for a season. And a season to prove himself following that opportunity to make his own mark on the squad.

That is still my instinctive feeling. But I understand in this day and age people find that shockingly complacent. Maybe I am revising down my definition of catastrophe. What would it take to make me call for his head before then? Im not sure exactly, I guess Ill just know it when I see it.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

Once we finish top four, I'm all for given him three seasons.

 

[adexkola]

Yea, I was sceptical about using that term myself.

Okay, put simply - at what stage/circumstance would you feel Moyes has underachieved to the point where he would have to go?

I'm giving him at least a season plus transfer window to evaluate. The lower the place the team ends up in, the more scrutinizing I'll be of Moyes' plan to get us back to the top, and if I'm not convinced, then yeah, he should go.

 

[Nathan]

He has loads of pressure to succeed, surely he walked into the job with all the necessary confidence. He has time and should get it right almost immediately. We need consistency to the squad and get the team focussed into getting the right result i.e. winning.

 

[Rednails]

Yesterday, Paul Hayward who ghost wrote Sir Alex's book said "No football team embodied their manager's character more than his Manchester United" He was bold and brave and he never gave up till the final whistle. So what does the current team say about Moyes's character? Cautious, lacking confidence, disinclined to go for the jugular? He just doesnt have the leadership qualities imho.

 

[FlawlessThaw]

The thing I am surprised about is the acceptance of mediocrity in the beyond the immediate (ie next 2-3 years) I thought Moyes should be given a season and if he fails to at least qualify for the Champions League then he ought to be sacked. However I was surprised to see quite a few people back him even if that were to happen.

 

[Cina]

The thing I am surprised about is the acceptance of mediocrity in the beyond the immediate (ie next 2-3 years) I thought Moyes should be given a season and if he fails to at least qualify for the Champions League then he ought to be sacked. However I was surprised to see quite a few people back him even if that were to happen.

Aye, I think a season too, and if he misses the CL, he should be out the door. Still, there are total opposites to that who want him gone after a mediocre start to the season.

 

[VP]

On the whole, I think the supporter reaction has been fantastic. Very supportive, where it matters, on the pitch. And healthy criticism/questioning, deservedly, off the pitch.