Reaction of the fans to Moyes' struggles

[JmRssll555]

Perception by whom? The biased rival fans, the sensational media or the self proclaimed experts? From a neutral or objective perspective (be it my own or everybody I personally know who follows the EPL) the opinion of Wenger has not really changed over the years. Over here in Germany Arsene Wenger is still seen as one of the best managers and certainly one of the most respected ones in Europe. The reputation he enjoys is also justified.

Given the clear differences in spending power to the three top dogs and the loss of several key players, managing to always be in range of the CL places is a respectable feat. That some used the lack of (unrealistic) trophies to make fun of him and the club does not change that.

What has he done in the past 8 years to be considered as "one of the best" managers? We've seen a few other top level managers emerge in Europe in that period who I would suggest are all considered to be "better" than Wenger now - for example, Mourinho, Klopp, Blanc and Guardiola. I know they have all achieved success at huge clubs but I think Arsenal under Wenger used to be considered as part of that elite and now they no longer are. You have to attribute that down to the manager, both in terms of his player purchases and his tactics at times.

I would compare the rise and fall of Wenger's reputation to that of Torres - yes, each are still generally held to be very good at what they do. However, neither are still held in the same esteem as they once were, when each may have staked a claim to be one of the best in the world in their respective jobs.

Therefore, I would counter that it isn't biased rival fans, or the sensationalist media, but rather the average football fan who perceives Wenger not to be nearly as effective as he used to be.

I'm enjoying this discussion, but wary that we take this thread too far off topic. Feel free to quote me in some other thread where it may be more relevant.

 

[Eyepopper]

Some fans have been ridiculously OTT, to the point that it makes trying to have any sort of sensible debate pointless, debates now seem to about point scoring, but thats been the way with players, games etc etc for ages, we never really had it with managers because we were so blessed having Fergie.

Moyes will come good given time.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

Here's my problem - I didn't think Moyes should become our manager back on May 8th, because I didn't think he had any of the required experience or skill-set to manage Manchester United.

And so, here we are 8 games in, and nothing Moyes has done so far has altered any of my original misgivings - and if anything have just gone to further confirm my perceptions about him as a manager. However, having said all that I realise it's still only 8 games - and he needs much more time in order to be allowed to prove himself as the right man for the job... but this is counter-balanced by the fact that I think we'll continue to slump under his leadership and all the time we give him will only further show-up his shortcomings.Still, what I think will happen and what actually does happen could end up being worlds apart (and they often are), so I have to basically ignore what I think and encourage the idea that we give him plenty of time...

So, with this in mind - I can't bring myself to be annoyed at people slagging off Moyes - and only slightly irked by those demanding his head (because t's mental and a bit crass) because I don't have much faith in the bloke either... does that make me a shit fan? Maybe...

 

[Sky1981]

Moyes will prove to be the right man for the job, but we have to give him a bit of time. It was never going to be easy coming in after SAF and all the glory we have experienced. I´m sure that he will be a succesfull manager of MUFC but it takes a while to settle in

Based on?

 

[Raoul]

I've been surprised at how many fans seem willing to settle for mediocrity and lack any sort of ambition. This is the most important period for the club in a long time, and some people are showing staggering complacency under the guise of patience and faith.

In case its not clear Mike - there are a lot of people who are less interested in winning than they are adhering to an identity and ethos. This is what is used to undergird the mediocrity mindset that justifies a manager like Moyes managing Manchester United.

 

[fatboy]

That's the thing isn't it? Everyone is seeing this as the "poisoned chalice" because of Fergie's success, so let's cut him a little slack. Well the way I see it, he's been getting all the support he can hope to have (even if his support from fans is now starting to wane). Nobody pretends that taking over Fergie will be easy, but I can't help but feel he is making it even harder for himself with the decisions he makes, and the things he says to the media.

We knew the transition was going to be tough, but were we all really expecting it to be this bad? Was there no manager out there who might have made this a little less painful? I honestly wasn't expecting us to lead the table, or even be in the top 3. But I really didn't foresee us being 8th, and 3 points behind a leading pack of 7 teams, only 8 games into the season. Let's be honest, putting all talk of fans being "spoilt" aside, was anyone out there really expecting us to be exactly where we are now?

Moyes has my full support in so far as he shares the same fortunes as the club, but so far he doesn't give me confidence that we picked the right guy.

 

[Sarni]

To be fair even though I'm far from writing Moyes off in October I would say people who maintain that we should keep him regardless of results are actually the silly bunch rather than the ones who'd be willing to let him go if we don't make top 4 at least. You don't really have to look beyond Liverpool to witness what could happen if your slide towards mediocrity doesn't stop at one point and football presents clubs with even more dynamic environment now than in the past with sugar daddies and far more top clubs around.

In any other job you'd be gone if you didn't perform. If a doctor replaced a highly regarded surgeon at the hospital and cut out someone's liver instead of a kidney they'd be gone, if a new CEO turned a highly profitable company into one that's making several million pound losses they'd be gone, if a bus driver consistently took a wrong way and ended up in the wrong place he'd also have to step down. It has to be the same here, if he doesn't show that he's capable of managing a big club that's the end of it.

 

[kf]

The vast majority of the match going fans will continue to give him time, the away fans in particular will continue with their vociferous support. We have a job to do and it hasn't changed just because the manager has. We'll get behind the players, including the ones we think are a bit shit and we'll back the manager. Some of us have backed managers a lot more useless than Moyes in our time!

That of course doesn't mean we're not concerned. Moyes has made mistakes and unfortunately there's bound to be speculation and discussion about whether Ferguson would have done this and that. I think the biggest mistake was the decision to try and play mainly the same set of players in the 'difficult' start. Firstly, I don't think making a big deal about a 'difficult start' was the right thing to do, Moyes shouldn't have even mentioned it and just got on with it. The suggestion that there was some Premier League conspiracy was a bit daft but the main issue was that talking about it gets it into the players' heads and we didn't want them thinking like that. Also by not using the squad, we end up overusing Rio and Vidic in particular and then when we need to use Evans, he's not ready because he's had no football. Obviously Moyes isn't used to having this size of squad but he needs to learn this lesson quickly, the games come thick and fast now.

Anyway, we are where we are and what's needed is for the players to find some consistency and put a string of results together. That will breed confidence (even world class players have crises of confidence) and that will help results. The fans have a part to play - get behind the players and the manager. Anything else is counter productive.

 

[Sarni]

That's the thing isn't it? Everyone is seeing this as the "poisoned chalice" because of Fergie's success, so let's cut him a little slack. Well the way I see it, he's been getting all the support he can hope to have (even if his support from fans is now starting to wane). Nobody pretends that taking over Fergie will be easy, but I can't help but feel he is making it even harder for himself with the decisions he makes, and the things he says to the media.

We knew the transition was going to be tough, but were we all really expecting it to be this bad? Was there no manager out there who might have made this a little less painful? I honestly wasn't expecting us to lead the table, or even be in the top 3. But I really didn't foresee us being 8th, and 3 points behind a leading pack of 7 teams, only 8 games into the season. Let's be honest, putting all talk of fans being "spoilt" aside, was anyone out there really expecting us to be exactly where we are now?

Moyes has my full support in so far as he shares the same fortunes as the club, but so far he doesn't give me confidence that we picked the right guy.

We've just been outplayed by West Brom and in the late stages of the game by Southampton in two consecutive league games at Old Trafford, having barely beaten Crystal Palace and Sunderland in the meantime. I'd say if Mark Hughes turns up with similar set of results at Stoke their fans will be disappointed as well.

We shouldn't lower our expectations down to the region of Hull City just because we don't have Sir Alex. People keep digging out certain statistics from the past as if they held any genuine relevance - even if we end up 9th after 30 games someone will find a table from 1930-31 that shows us 9th after 31 games and 3rd after season ends or summat.

 

[Magnus]

Based on?

My football-knowledge

 

[Chesterlestreet]

In case its not clear Mike - there are a lot of people who are less interested in winning than they are adhering to an identity and ethos. This is what is used to undergird the mediocrity mindset that justifies a manager like Moyes managing Manchester United.

That's only partially true at best. There are many United fans who see identity and winning as closely related. Under Busby and then later under SAF continuity (and a certain ethos) was very much an integral part of the success itself. The two are not mutually exclusive. Moyes was given the job because the board (SAF, not least) believe that he can carry on this legacy: It's a legacy of success - a winning culture. The idea that we have willingly settled for mediocrity by appointing Moyes is absurd.

 

[Revan]

Some fans have been ridiculously OTT, to the point that it makes trying to have any sort of sensible debate pointless, debates now seem to about point scoring, but thats been the way with players, games etc etc for ages, we never really had it with managers because we were so blessed having Fergie.

Moyes will come good given time.

This is the biggest problem I am having in these threads. It's completely logicless saying this. Why will he come good if given time, when there is a big probability that he isn't good at all. He didn't have any of the requirements that makes someone think that he will ever become a top manager and only half a year ago people were terrified with the prospect of him becoming our manager. He hasn't done anything to change this opinion and simply saying that he'll turn out to be good (magically if I may add) if given time, without evaluating his job/results/performances here is blind faith.

Here's my problem - I didn't think Moyes should become our manager back on May 8th, because I didn't think he had any of the required experience or skill-set to manage Manchester United.

And so, here we are 8 games in, and nothing Moyes has done so far has altered any of my original misgivings - and if anything have just gone to further confirm my perceptions about him as a manager. However, having said all that I realise it's still only 8 games - and he needs much more time in order to be allowed to prove himself as the right man for the job... but this is counter-balanced by the fact that I think we'll continue to slump under his leadership and all the time we give him will only further show-up his shortcomings.Still, what I think will happen and what actually does happen could end up being worlds apart (and they often are), so I have to basically ignore what I think and encourage the idea that we give him plenty of time...

So, with this in mind - I can't bring myself to be annoyed at people slagging off Moyes - and only slightly irked by those demanding his head (because t's mental and a bit crass) because I don't have much faith in the bloke either... does that make me a shit fan? Maybe...

Glory hunter, go support City etc etc.

I know from your posts that you go to stadium to support United so of course that is not my opinion but I have seen similar reactions to these posts. For what is worth, I have exactly the same opinion as you in this matter.

 

[Rooney24]

Some of the reaction as expected has been way over the top. How anyone can say that he has to go after 8 games, when the last guy was in charge for 26 years is beyond me.

He has to be given a fair chance and 8 games is not a fair chance. IMO he will be given at least 2-3 years regardsless of what happens, so people will just need to buckle up and get on with supporting both him and the team.

 

[shaggy]

This is the biggest problem I am having in these threads. It's completely logicless saying this. Why will he come good if given time, when there is a big probability that he isn't good at all. He didn't have any of the requirements that makes someone think that he will ever become a top manager and only half a year ago people were terrified with the prospect of him becoming our manager. He hasn't done anything to change this opinion and simply saying that he'll turn out to be good (magically if I may add) if given time, without evaluating his job/results/performances here is blind faith.



Glory hunter, go support City etc etc.

I know from your posts that you go to stadium to support United so of course that is not my opinion but I have seen similar reactions to these posts. For what is worth, I have exactly the same opinion as you in this matter.

Eyepopper probably rates Moyes as a manager which is why he would give him time which is logical.

Personally I don't rate him that highly and think we're in danger of 'doing a liverpool'. IMO trying to appoint another Fergie as we have done with Moyes was just very idealistic. The cock-ups we made in the transfer window this summer could potentially have an impact on us for years.

 

[Ish]

The price of 20-odd years of relentless success is biting us in the ass.

 

[RedSky]

Here's my problem - I didn't think Moyes should become our manager back on May 8th, because I didn't think he had any of the required experience or skill-set to manage Manchester United.

And so, here we are 8 games in, and nothing Moyes has done so far has altered any of my original misgivings - and if anything have just gone to further confirm my perceptions about him as a manager. However, having said all that I realise it's still only 8 games - and he needs much more time in order to be allowed to prove himself as the right man for the job... but this is counter-balanced by the fact that I think we'll continue to slump under his leadership and all the time we give him will only further show-up his shortcomings.Still, what I think will happen and what actually does happen could end up being worlds apart (and they often are), so I have to basically ignore what I think and encourage the idea that we give him plenty of time...

So, with this in mind - I can't bring myself to be annoyed at people slagging off Moyes - and only slightly irked by those demanding his head (because t's mental and a bit crass) because I don't have much faith in the bloke either... does that make me a shit fan? Maybe...

You share the same opinion as me brother. He's the manager at our club, he needs to be given time just like any new player. Lets wait till the end of the January window before people start requesting his head. I for one will give him at least a full season, the issue is where we finish in the PL. I had this season marked as a write off before it even began, but for us to finish out of the CL places would put serious doubt at Daves door.

 

[Bref]

IMO he will be given at least 2-3 years regardsless of what happens, so people will just need to buckle up and get on with supporting both him and the team.

I agree. With Fergie and Sir Bobby on the board he'll get all the support he needs. He'll get at least 3 years I reckon, regardless of results/trophies

 

[Raoul]

That's only partially true at best. There are many United fans who see identity and winning as closely related. Under Busby and then later under SAF continuity (and a certain ethos) was very much an integral part of the success itself. The two are not mutually exclusive. Moyes was given the job because the board (SAF, not least) believe that he can carry on this legacy: It's a legacy of success - a winning culture. The idea that we have willingly settled for mediocrity by appointing Moyes is absurd.

I agree with that, but there's also a danger of retaining the identity/ethos whilst not retaining success. That's where I'm afraid things are heading at the moment.

 

[Revan]

I agree. With Fergie and Sir Bobby on the board he'll get all the support he needs. He'll get at least 3 years I reckon, regardless of results/trophies

I doubt that their opinion will matter that much if we'll miss the UCL money. Glazers are businessman and pretty ruthless. If the Moyes experiement fails, I think that it is quite possible that we'll have changes also in the board.

 

[Cina]

I was probably one of the most anti-getting Moyes people on here when we were linked to him, and I expected to be one of the most critical of him when shit went wrong. The thing is, I've actually found myself defending him and Fellaini on here, because some of the reactions have been so hysterical and bizarre that it's been impossible not to. Even after Saturday, I came on here ready to rip him to shreds, then I saw some of the comments and the moaning, which had absolutely nothing to do with the performance out there, purely just "I hate Moyes, mid table manager, can't sign decent players, bla bla".

basically, you've all made my defend my enemy and I hate you for it.

 

[Eyepopper]

This is the biggest problem I am having in these threads. It's completely logicless saying this. Why will he come good if given time, when there is a big probability that he isn't good at all. He didn't have any of the requirements that makes someone think that he will ever become a top manager and only half a year ago people were terrified with the prospect of him becoming our manager. He hasn't done anything to change this opinion and simply saying that he'll turn out to be good (magically if I may add) if given time, without evaluating his job/results/performances here is blind faith

Nothing wrong with showing a little faith now and again.

Those lads that wanted Fergie gone in the early days didn't show much either.

Moyes wont be going anywhere anytime soon, until he does I'd rather support him and live in hope that he will get it right that picking holes in everything and anything so that if he does go I can sit round telling everyone I told them so.

 

[Rooney24]

Nothing wrong with showing a little faith now and again.

Those lads that wanted Fergie gone in the early days didn't show much either.

Moyes wont be going anywhere anytime soon, until he does I'd rather support him and live in hope that he will get it right that picking holes in everything and anything so that if he does go I can sit round telling everyone I told them so.

Spot on. Seems to be a lot of that thinking going on. He has to be given time, and that is the bottom line. There is no other option.

what is the alternative? Sack him after 8 games, in January, or at the end of the season? And when the new guy comes in do the same with him if results are similar??

 

[Revan]

basically, you've all made my defend my enemy and I hate you for it.

You hate everything anyway.

Those lads that wanted Fergie gone in the early days didn't show much either.

Different scenario, different approach. Fergie was a winner who has achieved some impossible results in Aberdeen. He took a team in relegation zone who hasn't won a title for almost a decade. He was also a very attacking minded manager

Moyes hasn't won anything, is a defensive minded manager and took a team of champions. So, personally I don't find the situations to be comparable.

 

[NotoriousISSY]

Nothing wrong with the backlash from the last two home games. Moyes has made some absolutely baffling decisions in games whilst he obviously isn't quite there at motivating the players.

At the same time it's not entirely his fault either. But people are certainly entitled to say 'what the feck is happening' when the team has scored one goal from open play at home and won just the one home game out of four!

 

[RedSky]

Moyes hasn't won anything, is a defensive minded manager and took a team of champions. So, personally I don't find the situations to be comparable.

Agreed. The Alex/Dave comparisons need to stop. They aren't anything a like. Different scenarios and different times. Football has changed massively in the past 20 years.

 

[soapythecat]

The price of 20-odd years of relentless success is biting us in the ass.

Yes and No on this one. Granted, after decades success we have all become accustomed to seeing united challange for the league and advance to the later stages in the CL, however, even if we hadn't done as well, I still think there would be a certain expectation amongst united fans regardless of how well we have or haven't done in the past.
I'm in the forces and surrounded by supporters of every club under the sun, and believe me that they all have lofty expectations of their club - especially when a new manager comes in. I know Liverpool fans who got behind every manager in recent times, only to be bitterly disappointed and skeptical of future appointments. They are just as expectant of what Liverpool should be achieving as we are....we all know that every year is going to be their year...yada, yada.
I remember the discontent amongst many, many fans at the start of Fergies era when we were poor - and we were really poor. We hadn't won much (95 Fa Cup) in years, yet we still wanted to do well and be challenging for the league. I don't see much has changed with expectations 25+ years down the line.

 

[hp88]

Spot on. Seems to be a lot of that thinking going on. He has to be given time, and that is the bottom line. There is no other option.

what is the alternative? Sack him after 8 games, in January, or at the end of the season? And when the new guy comes in do the same with him if results are similar??

Who's saying he should be sacked after 8 games? That's just stupid. I have heard people say he should go in May if we finish outside the top four and they have got valid arguments to back what they're saying. I would give him another year regardless of what happens this season but if there isn't much progress in 2014 the club will probably start looking at other options.

 

[MikeUpNorth]

Nothing wrong with showing a little faith now and again.

Most people don't mind showing faith in an inspirational leader. There are two types of football manager who command that sort of faith: The Old Bastard Military General and The Learned Intellectual. Moyes is neither.

Even his name, "Moyes", just sounds so dank and limp. It's like a kind of stubborn mold you would find growing beneath your floorboards. "Eurgh, what's that?!" "Oh, that's just some Moyes I can't seem to get rid of."

 

[Eyepopper]

Even his name, "Moyes", just sounds so dank and limp. It's like a kind of stubborn mold you would find growing beneath your floorboards. "Eurgh, what's that?!" "Oh, that's just some Moyes I can't seem to get rid of."

Ok, when you make an argument like that, feck it, I'm convinced.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I agree with that, but there's also a danger of retaining the identity/ethos whilst not retaining success. That's where I'm afraid things are heading at the moment.

Aye - but there's always an element of risk. We simply don't know yet if Moyes is the man to carry the legacy on - we don't even know if this "legacy model" is viable in the modern game. But Fergie and the board have though it wise to carry on with it - rather than appointing a different kind of manager and going for a different recipe for success. Only time will tell if they are proven right. But the latter is key: Time. The choice itself implies that he - contrary to what many are saying at the moment - should be granted more time than, say, a Mourinho or an Ancelotti: He's taken over a major operation, not just the task of selecting a starting eleven. It's a very different job from what many other top managers have - and I personally think that this should be recognized, regardless of whether one likes him for the part or not.

PS The last bit was obviously not directed at you - just a general remark.

 

[Rooney24]

Who's saying he should be sacked after 8 games? That's just stupid. I have heard people say he should go in May if we finish outside the top four and they have got valid arguments to back what they're saying. I would give him another year regardless of what happens this season but if there isn't much progress in 2014 the club will probably start looking at other options.

Just some of the quotes from the "Moyes, so far" thread. It gets particularly hysterical around page 97, 98 and onwards.....

I want him gone. Fair enough if you call me petty, a bad fan, knee jerk or worse but after today I have no faith in the guy whatsoever.

Cowardly shite.

I don't think anyone could blame you. It really was pathetic decisions from Moyes today. It was shocking to see a United manager do that.

What did SAF see in moyes. Absolute shit substitution. Giggs should have retired. I hope we finish in the bottom half of the table and Moyes get sacked. Kagawa should have come on instead of Giggs

Want him gone before he ruins us. This could be Souness again.

I would give him more time, if he had actually won something. Also his style of football is dogshit and his only signing is awful.

 

[Eyepopper]

Different scenario, different approach. Fergie was a winner who has achieved some impossible results in Aberdeen. He took a team in relegation zone who hasn't won a title for almost a decade. He was also a very attacking minded manager

None of which mattered a feck to the numpties that were calling for his head.

Moyes hasn't won anything, is a defensive minded manager and took a team of champions. So, personally I don't find the situations to be comparable.

Here's a mad one but maybe it's going to take time for Moyes to put his mark on Utd. With the fixtures we've faced at the start of the season (added to all the changes) I have no problem whatsoever with a defensive approach against the likes of Liverpool, Chelsea etc at the start of the season.

We do need to improve, obviously, results against West Brom and Southampton were disappointing, but maybe that will take a bit of time to.

 

[Cina]

He needs a season, for me. Though anything less than a CL spot will be calamitous and he should certainly go if we don't achieve it with this squad.

 

[MikeUpNorth]

Ok, when you make an argument like that, feck it, I'm convinced.

Come on 'Popper, surely you can see he's a glorified PE teacher promoted above his ability?

 

[Eyepopper]

Come on 'Popper, surely you can see he's a glorified PE teacher promoted above his ability?

I went to a christian brothers school, I can only dream of PE teachers like Moyes.

 

[Revan]

None of which mattered a feck to the numpties that were calling for his head.

Still doesn't make the situation similar. We can't judge Moyes on Fergie's past successes.

Here's a mad one but maybe it's going to take time for Moyes to put his mark on Utd. With the fixtures we've faced at the start of the season (added to all the changes) I have no problem whatsoever with a defensive approach against the likes of Liverpool, Chelsea etc at the start of the season.

We do need to improve, obviously, results against West Brom and Southampton were disappointing, but maybe that will take a bit of time to.

I think that going defensive against Chelsea was a big mistake. They came here to defend so it was very easy to defeat them if Moyes wanted three points. Anyway that's not the point cause I agree that it is tolerable to defend against top teams, especially when he just took over.

But defending against WBA and Southampton is a bit shit and retarded tactics. The league usually is win IMO against the small teams, and the results at home really matter. We usually lose 7-10 points at home during an entire season, we have already lost 7 in our first four games. And I haven't seen that much to make me believe that Moyes will start attacking other teams more. I have seen a lot of comments here that Moyes needs to go jugular or become more adventorous but the chances that this will happen (in a consistent basis) are remotely the same as Guardiola playing catenaccio with Bayern.

My dream scenario is that at-least we'll start winning games with some solid (though not attractive football). Moyes doing a Capello. Not sure that this will happen though, but we'll need time to see. But if people are seriously expecting us to play attacking football with Moyes in charge, they will be very disappointed.

 

[MikeUpNorth]

I went to a christian brothers school, I can only dream of PE teachers like Moyes.

 

[pocco]

Most people don't mind showing faith in an inspirational leader. There are two types of football manager who command that sort of faith: The Old Bastard Military General and The Learned Intellectual. Moyes is neither.

Even his name, "Moyes", just sounds so dank and limp. It's like a kind of stubborn mold you would find growing beneath your floorboards. "Eurgh, what's that?!" "Oh, that's just some Moyes I can't seem to get rid of."

That first paragraph shows your lack of knowledge of the subject. If you know so little about Moyes, how much can you really know about these foreign managers that you'll soon be calling for us to hire? I'm guessing not a lot.

 

[Rooney24]

Come on 'Popper, surely you can see he's a glorified PE teacher promoted above his ability?

On the back of that comment I'd be interested to know why it was SAF thought he was suitable for us?

 

[hp88]

Just some of the quotes from the "Moyes, so far" thread. It gets particularly hysterical around page 97, 98 and onwards.....

They're just post match knee jerks and will probably regret posting that when they read back. I am yet to meet someone who genuinely want's him gone today.