Redcafe Sheep Draft - Balu vs Polaroid

Who will win based on all the players at their peak?


  • Total voters
    24
  • Poll closed .

Moby

Dick
Joined
May 20, 2011
Messages
51,356
Location
Barcelona, Catalunya
Am I? Then the whole issue boils down to the simple act of persuasion. If Balu is the more persuasive talker, he will find means of convincing us that his defence will contain Polaroid, and somehow outscore the latter. If Polaroid is more convincing in his arguments, then we will end up thinking 'it's Zinedine Zidane, Gareth Bale, Fernando Redondo and Samuel Eto'o at their best against 5 mere mortals. Is this poll a joke?'

Okay, I exaggerated. But you get my point. And when that happens, isn't the whole point of the draft lost?
Or, perhaps, I've had the wrong idea of the 'whole point' itself.
Yeah it is more like that, everyone has his own idea of not only how great the peak of the player was but also how frequently he performed at that level. For example with a player like Irwin you know he would give a minimum of 7/10, but there are players like Nani like you said who can give a 10/10 but also 3/10.

It's all very subjective and the point is not to have a universal definition of a player's peak, which is why we have these discussions where everyone expresses how they view what the players are likely to produce in the game. As for your earlier post, you said everyone will score 2-3 goals, but you might have forgotten that the defenders also are supposed to be at their peak at which a lot of names here stopped the best of threats. Say a maldini at his peak wouldn't allow many wingers to make an impact which he did against the very best of his time.

At the end, we don't expect everyone to agree with the same definition of peak or quality of a player, which is great as that makes for interesting debates.

And also, when you see the games, if you imagine them happening in reality there's no real way of predicting who will win so in the end you have take it a lot more casually and not get fixated on the result of the voting. Every team has players who used to single handedly win games, etc so the bigger thing that comes out of these games from a serious point of view are the discussions and debates while the voting results should be taken a lot less seriously.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

Ero-Sennin
Joined
Dec 7, 2010
Messages
41,630
Location
┴┬┴┤( ͡° ͜ʖ├┬┴┬
Sorry Balu, I've gone for Pol here.

The teams are evenly tied. I just had to break it down in chewable blocks. In your best attacking play with both Effenberg and Kroos moving up, you still have a 6 man defence to penetrate, not easy. On the other side you have a 5 man defence against his 4 man attack, not easy either. Against such a stalemate it comes down to see who has players who can create out of nothing, the inspirational brilliance and that flair I see in Redondo/Zidane. Players who can turn a match in a moment on their own.

Not an easy match to decide on outcome and despite reading the comments before, I personally do not see any obvious weak areas in both teams. So when the physical does not materialise, you go looking for the metaphysical.

Good teams both. Best matchup since the Jayvin/Tito tournament opener.
 

antohan

gets aroused by tagline boobs
Joined
Apr 24, 2002
Messages
42,237
Location
Montevideo
Missed this earlier.

He played it with Vidic next to him.
Hummels is slower to react/accelerate, not at Vidic level and hasn't forged the understanding they had. Imagine Vidic's early games getting used to each other... I was more thinking aboutthat game with Torres :(
 

Moby

Dick
Joined
May 20, 2011
Messages
51,356
Location
Barcelona, Catalunya
Hummels is slower to react/accelerate, not at Vidic level and hasn't forged the understanding they had. Imagine Vidic's early games getting used to each other... I was more thinking aboutthat game with Torres :(
It shouldn't really be an issue. Rio, Alaba and Gallas are all incredibly pacy and in Rio you have one of the best when it comes to preventing counters.

That Torres game was a tactical error. Firstly you shouldn't play that high against a player like him unless really necessary but leaving Vidic as the last man, was insane.
 

Moby

Dick
Joined
May 20, 2011
Messages
51,356
Location
Barcelona, Catalunya
It shouldn't really be an issue. Rio, Alaba and Gallas are all incredibly pacy and in Rio you have one of the best when it comes to preventing counters.

That Torres game was a tactical error. Firstly you shouldn't play that high against a player like him unless really necessary but leaving Vidic as the last man, was insane.
Just to add, it was beyond my understanding why it happened because the previous season (the season where Torres finished 3rd in Ballon D'or) it was Rio who took him out of the game at Anfield and negated his pace completely.
 

Annahnomoss

Full Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2012
Messages
10,101
I think the fact that Polaroid has gone for two sweepers in his CB pairing is the biggest eye-sore in the game. Hummels is never going to be able to provide Rio with that steel and the stopper ability of a Vidic. Hummels is also quality wise by far the worst defender on the pitch and with Alaba on his side he will be called out on it time and time again.

Klinsmann alone will be able to terrorize that side of the young Hummels/Alaba and with Muller and Reuter out wide Alaba/Hummels defense will be exploited.

I think that Sammer is going to do a better job on Zidane - than Hummels will do against Klinsmann who thrived on inexperienced players.

 

antohan

gets aroused by tagline boobs
Joined
Apr 24, 2002
Messages
42,237
Location
Montevideo
It shouldn't really be an issue. Rio, Alaba and Gallas are all incredibly pacy and in Rio you have one of the best when it comes to preventing counters.

That Torres game was a tactical error. Firstly you shouldn't play that high against a player like him unless really necessary but leaving Vidic as the last man, was insane.
Fair enough, Vidic's partners were pacey as well, but it was more a feckup than anything else.
 

Balu

Der Fußballgott
Joined
Dec 2, 2010
Messages
15,102
Location
Munich
Supports
Bayern Munich
Sorry Balu, I've gone for Pol here.

The teams are evenly tied. I just had to break it down in chewable blocks. In your best attacking play with both Effenberg and Kroos moving up, you still have a 6 man defence to penetrate, not easy. On the other side you have a 5 man defence against his 4 man attack, not easy either. Against such a stalemate it comes down to see who has players who can create out of nothing, the inspirational brilliance and that flair I see in Redondo/Zidane. Players who can turn a match in a moment on their own.

Not an easy match to decide on outcome and despite reading the comments before, I personally do not see any obvious weak areas in both teams. So when the physical does not materialise, you go looking for the metaphysical.

Good teams both. Best matchup since the Jayvin/Tito tournament opener.
Wait, what? Unless he hits me on the counter, which isn't that likely with the way I have set up my team, why would you discount both my CMs from my defense?

I don't mind that you voted for Pol, fair enough, if you believe he's more likely to create something than me. I get the breaking it down part to come up with a reason to vote. But the idea that I'm attacking 5vs6 and he's attacking 4vs5 makes no sense to me. I'm the one with the more defensive setup here, adding a 3rd CM instead of an AM in Kroos, yet I'm the one with less numbers in defense? At least Effenberg surely should count as a CM, who did a lot in defense and not be ignored here (though I believe Kroos' defensive contribution is really underrated as well, but that's probably way more difficult to argue).
 

Balu

Der Fußballgott
Joined
Dec 2, 2010
Messages
15,102
Location
Munich
Supports
Bayern Munich
Is there no love for proven connections, btw? Somehow barely anyone has commented on that? No extra points for Buchwald - Sammer - Kohler winning countless trophies together in comparison to a back 4 in which no 2 players ever played a game together? Same for Ziege + Scholl in comparison to for example Alaba + Bale? Bale as a left winger is nothing like Ribery, I'd argue that Bale on the right and Brian Laudrup on the left would have been a way better fit for his fullbacks.

World cup winner in 1990: Klinsmann, Buchwald, Kohler, Reuter
Euro winner in 1996: Klinsmann, Scholl, Ziege, Reuter, Kohler, Sammer, (Kahn as an unused sub was part of the squad as well)
Stuttgart '87 - '92: Klinsmann, Buchwald, Sammer (Klinsmann left before Sammer joined, but both connected with Buchwald)
Bayern UEFA cup winner '96: Klinsmann, Scholl, Ziege, Kahn
Bayern CL winner in '01: Scholl, Kahn, Effenberg,
Dortmund CL winner in '97: Sammer, Kohler, Reuter
Treble winning Bayern: Müller, Kroos

Has there ever been a team in one of these fantasy drafts with comparable connections in winning the biggest trophies? And it's not because I missed out on individual quality, those players are no mugs at all, it's a brilliant mix between worldclass players and important players that helped make it work.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

Ero-Sennin
Joined
Dec 7, 2010
Messages
41,630
Location
┴┬┴┤( ͡° ͜ʖ├┬┴┬
m the one with the more defensive setup here, adding a 3rd CM instead of an AM in Kroos, yet I'm the one with less numbers in defense?
Put it down to my weird thought process :lol:

I was not thinking of a proper gameplay but on how 2 speperate attackes by each team would take place. Again the 5on4 is in your favour discounting the CM's making them superfluous for that. Ignoring the convoluted explanation of mine in the post, the point being, I think the teams are even...the talk of width and Muller going on in previous pages is just immaterial as neither team has major flaws in players/tactics.

I did put his as a more defensive formation as even when he is in possession and attacking Redondo/Petit are likely to stay deeper than either Effenberg/Kroos while you are attacking.
 

Balu

Der Fußballgott
Joined
Dec 2, 2010
Messages
15,102
Location
Munich
Supports
Bayern Munich
I did put his as a more defensive formation as even when he is in possession and attacking Redondo/Petit are likely to stay deeper than either Effenberg/Kroos while you are attacking.
Yeah, but Redondo/Petit will be about where Sammer/Effenberg are, I'd even argue Sammer/Effenberg will stay deeper in comparison while Kroos also stays deeper than Zidane in comparison. It's still a 532, one of Scholl/Müller will overload the wing, not both at the same time.

For example, let's say Effenberg gets the ball to Scholl who connects with Ziege, than I have Ziege running in behind the defense, Klinsmann + Müller in the box with Scholl and Kroos around the box. If Müller played as a winger, he would drag Alaba in, but he's already in the middle, fighting it out with Hummels, not making a run from out wide. See, what I mean? And that's without Effenberg moving forward.
 

Moby

Dick
Joined
May 20, 2011
Messages
51,356
Location
Barcelona, Catalunya
Looks like Balu has taken a match winning lead here, in a tight game such as this that should be enough.

Shame Brehme isn't in the pool for next round, he would have looked great in this team.
 

crappycraperson

"Resident cricket authority"
Scout
Joined
Dec 26, 2003
Messages
38,208
Location
Interweb
Have voted for Pol. Quite contradictory to what I was saying earlier but in a tight game, his attackers are more likely to pop up with an individual moment to win it. Also I would have preferred Balu to play 433 outright, it is good he is sticking with what he thinks is apt but I think I would have voted for him with 433
 

Balu

Der Fußballgott
Joined
Dec 2, 2010
Messages
15,102
Location
Munich
Supports
Bayern Munich
Looks like Balu has taken a match winning lead here, in a tight game such as this that should be enough.

Shame Brehme isn't in the pool for next round, he would have looked great in this team.
Don't jinx it :mad: . A few hours to go, it's still close. And yes, Brehme would have been the standout upgrade. We'll see what we can do for the next round, if (big if) I go through. I have a few ideas to change or develop the theme, it doesn't have to stay all German.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

Ero-Sennin
Joined
Dec 7, 2010
Messages
41,630
Location
┴┬┴┤( ͡° ͜ʖ├┬┴┬
Yeah, but Redondo/Petit will be about where Sammer/Effenberg are, I'd even argue Sammer/Effenberg will stay deeper in comparison while Kroos also stays deeper than Zidane in comparison. It's still a 532, one of Scholl/Müller will overload the wing, not both at the same time.

For example, let's say Effenberg gets the ball to Scholl who connects with Ziege, than I have Ziege running in behind the defense, Klinsmann + Müller in the box with Scholl and Kroos around the box. If Müller played as a winger, he would drag Alaba in, but he's already in the middle, fighting it out with Hummels, not making a run from out wide. See, what I mean? And that's without Effenberg moving forward.
Makes sense. I just thought different as I recalled a post by you earlier on attacking outlets and Effenberg making runs, so I assumed he would be more forward when you have possession.
 

Balu

Der Fußballgott
Joined
Dec 2, 2010
Messages
15,102
Location
Munich
Supports
Bayern Munich
Have voted for Pol. Quite contradictory to what I was saying earlier but in a tight game, his attackers are more likely to pop up with an individual moment to win it. Also I would have preferred Balu to play 433 outright, it is good he is sticking with what he thinks is apt but I think I would have voted for him with 433
I think I failed to praise the advantages of a 532 :( We talked so much about the disadvantages and how I try to make up for them, but there's a reason why Edgar benched Rui Costa to play a back 5 against 2 strikers. In possession I have 4 quality midfielders here with Scholl, Kroos, Effenberg and Sammer and all 4 can create something from deep and around the box and are a danger with long range shots, while I still have two strikers in the penalty area. I didn't change to a 433 and picked Kroos ahead of another DM, because it's fecking difficult to prevent me from creating something through the middle here, while 2 vs 2 in the box is a huge problem for Pol. You need an outstanding centerback pair to make sure none of those constantly moving strikers will get on the ball. The versatility of Müller and Scholl is useful, because it gives me a different dimension, it prevents the 532 from being too narrow, drags his DMs or centerbacks out wide which will open up gaps to exploit, but it's still only an option, not the way I want to attack constantly.

Yeah, I will probably loose the possession battle, big deal. It won't be Barca-numbers though, he can have 55%, that's still more than enough time on the ball for my midfielders to create something.

/edit:

Watch Klinsmann all over the pitch. He's not a striker who runs straight towards goal all the time, it's hard work, a fight all the time in and around the box on both sides. Now imagine Müller sneaking around, finding those gaps. It's beautiful. That compilation is far from perfect, I look for a better one later, but I think you get the idea.
 

Pippa

New Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2013
Messages
1,258
Does anyone remember that forward who jogged past Ferdinand to score a goal? It happened around 2008, I pointed it out in the Newbie section a couple of months ago but I forgot his name. :(

He was dribbling towards goal, Ferdinand just kept jockeying backwards until he was completely beat, it looked pathetic on his part. I remember seeing Müller score a goal like that before, I think...
 

Moby

Dick
Joined
May 20, 2011
Messages
51,356
Location
Barcelona, Catalunya
Don't jinx it :mad: . A few hours to go, it's still close. And yes, Brehme would have been the standout upgrade. We'll see what we can do for the next round, if (big if) I go through. I have a few ideas to change or develop the theme, it doesn't have to stay all German.
:lol: Nah I think you've got this.

Even if Pol manages to equalize, anto is surely voting for you this time. :D
 

Balu

Der Fußballgott
Joined
Dec 2, 2010
Messages
15,102
Location
Munich
Supports
Bayern Munich
Also, I'm really curious, how the users who voted for Pol see him scoring so much against me?

Bale on the left was hardly the goal machine, we saw when he was moved to the center/right and became an inverse winger/wide forward player. He was distinctly average for the first half of last season until he was moved into a different position and never played on the left for Real. I won't even start, that he has done barely anything of note on the biggest stage, while Müller for example has scored crucial goals against almost anyone for Germany and Bayern.

Zidane was far from a consistent goal machine. His goal against Leverkusen and the goals in the worldcup final often cloud that, imo. His goal ratio for an AM with the freedom and protection he got throughout his career isn't that special.

Brian Laudrup isn't a prolific goal scorer either.

Then there's Eto'o. I actually believe he's often underrated and he's an amazing big game player, I give him a goal here with the service he has, no doubt, but he's up against fecking Jürgen Kohler, the arguably greatest stopper in the history of the game. And he has help from outstanding longterm teammates, who were brilliant defenders as well.

I really don't get it. Is it really all down to, a moment of brilliance by Zidane will win it, because you can't defend against him?
 

Balu

Der Fußballgott
Joined
Dec 2, 2010
Messages
15,102
Location
Munich
Supports
Bayern Munich
Anyway, feck the result, I haven't talked about one of my favorite players ever yet. Mehmet Scholl. It's probably impossible to describe how important he was for Bayern and how much joy he brought to the fans during his 15 years at the club. He never got the chance to fullfil his potential, because injuries interrupted his career time and time again, but whenever he had a consistent run of games for more than a year, he was magical. He was quick, creative, a brilliant dribbler with so much vision and watching him play was always fun. At a time when German football was mostly about efficiency, he stood out and he delivered countless times. He's 6th in Bayern's alltime scoring list and is the record league winner in Germany with 8 titles (shared with Oliver Kahn). The fans adored him from the start and voted him in Bayern's all time XI in 2005. He still refers to the club as his family. But it's not only about what he did on the pitch. He joined Bayern when he was 21 years old and became a part of the city. He never hid from the fans, often was seen in the city, in normal clubs. He loved to go to small concerts, so he was a regular at some of the best live music clubs in Munich. I actually met him 3 times at the bar of a small club during concerts, we had a conversation about indie rock once during a (I think it was Maximo Park, not 100% sure) concert in 2005 or '06. He was so relaxed, we talked for about 5 minutes and I completely forgot to ask anything about football.

His career for Bayern in 6 minutes:

In the beginning, he says: "If you want to wear this shirt, you need courage, assertiveness, intelligence or 99,80 D-mark!" That's him in his early years, he never was too serious, too focused on the game in interviews. He had a brilliant balance between hard work and entertainment.


I still feel sick, that he only hit the post in '99 :(. Not only because we would have won that game, but because it should have been a career defining moment for him, after missing large parts of the season with injuries. I'd argue, he would have been rated on a different level today. Fine margins, you guys probably feel different about it ;).
 

Moby

Dick
Joined
May 20, 2011
Messages
51,356
Location
Barcelona, Catalunya
Yeah I was pretty glad it hit the post and didn't go in, we were really lucky in that game to survive till the end.

We probably would have won without leaving it to the last minute had Scholesy and Keano played. Keano was in god mode in the last game of CL.
 

Theon

Lord of the Iron Islands
Joined
Oct 14, 2011
Messages
13,292
Gone for Polaroid

Not too sure about this 3-5-2 at all and I don't fully understand Sammer's role. As I said at the beginning I think Zidane will get too much space against this set up and that is a sure bet to cost the game for Balu.

One thing I did think is that maybe Effenberg could combat Zidane when he's in possession, he has the mentality to do a pretty good job there. Trouble is that if it started to play out like that then Redondo will just control this match.

Polaroid has the two best players on the pitch - one at the top of the midfield and one at the bottom. I think Balu has a chance of stopping one, but certainly not both.
 

Polaroid

New Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2003
Messages
2,703
The boy was nothing short of amazing. He's a diamond in a draft like this where he can switch flanks to terrorise a weaker full-back. His performances at Euro 92, Euro 96 and France 98 were impeccable.
Totally. Amazed so few rated him here. Up against the defensive vulnerabilities of Ziege, I would bet my house on Laudrup every time.


You can go to any other board to verify how he is rated, I have and he is rated higher outside this board than he is here.
Only a handful here rates him where he truly belongs - an all-time great in the volante or DM/CM role
 

Polaroid

New Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2003
Messages
2,703
It does, the three attacking players are now in midfield ;)

No, seriously, the big deal really isn't whether he is deeper with an arrow or at DM, the big deal is whether Sammer is dedicated to Zidane.

Considering he is the most influential player on the park, I would commit him myself. I can see the logic in relying on such a tightly knit side to share the burden and the flexibility that comes with that... but I would prioritise taking Zidane out of the game. Everything else, every other "battle", suddenly becomes much easier.
Horses for courses, Frings would have been the better choice, bit late now we are at the 85th min mark, Zidane/Redondo would have done enough damage

This is my first time in draft football, and I find the assumption of all players playing at their peaks really annoying.
I know its supposed to even things out, but I feel it actually makes things unbalanced simply because of the vast difference in the definitions of "peaks".

For example, Nani at his 'peak' is definitely world-class. He'll take on his man and beat him every time, deliver pin-point crosses and through balls, and make any striker look like Messi with his assists. His peak consists of individually brilliant performances - a straight 10 in a series of 5s and 6s.Whereas for someone like Walcott, the peak signifies a series of brilliant performance - 8s and 9s in a row. You could say Nani's peak is arguably better than Walcott's peak. Which is completely against the lopsided answer that the question "Nani or Walcott?" will elicit. Same for Berbatov, Balotelli, Townsend and the likes.

My point is - in the lineups above, Polaroid's team clearly has most of the '10' players. We've assumed that they will be at their peaks, so it means that this is a game when Eto'o will be in a hat-trick mood; Bale will have two assists; and let fly 3 from outside the box; Zidane will score 2 and assist 4; Redondo will get 2 and set up 1 and Petit will chip in, too. From set-pieces, Rio and Hummel will get a goal each.
Kahn at his best will stop half of those all by himself, and Balu's defence may stop half of the remaining. Crudely speaking, Polaroid's team will still have a minimum of three goals. Lets call it a 3 goal/attack team.

For Balu, his attacking players' peaks will be mostly in the 8s and the 9s. Muller and Kroos will set up 2 each and score two each. Klinsmann gets a hat-trick, and Scholl gets two. An assist each from Ziege and Effenberg. That's it. Even though Pol's defence is relatively weaker, Balu has at max a 2.5 goal/attack team.

And since we've already established that Polaroid will have majority possesion, we can assume that he will have more attacks and win by outscoring Balu. Balu's team might do a truly magnificent job containing Pol's attack most of the time but it still won't be enough.



Perhaps I was tired of thinking of all the mini-battles involved, and simplified it down too much. Anyway, I think I need more 'XP' in these drafts. So though I think it should be Polaroid winning it, I dislike my approach to the conclusion, and so I won't vote.

So much for my efforts and arguments. It was fun, nonetheless.
I used a similar approach before, summing up players ratings when I am undecided between two teams
Having a basis for the decision is better than just scanning before voting
Whichever you are comfortable with, mate
 

Polaroid

New Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2003
Messages
2,703
Hummels is also quality wise by far the worst defender on the pitch
Nay that would be Ziege, he is good offensively but defensively he is the weakest link

Take a look at Hummels, one of the world's premier CBs who faced the best in the contemporary game


 

Gio

★★★★★★★★
Joined
Jan 25, 2001
Messages
20,408
Location
Bonnie Scotland
Supports
Rangers
This is my first time in draft football, and I find the assumption of all players playing at their peaks really annoying.
I know its supposed to even things out, but I feel it actually makes things unbalanced simply because of the vast difference in the definitions of "peaks".
The way I see it is you are judging each player on a typical game within a three-year prime. Three years because it cuts out the purple-patch-one-season-wonders and a 'typical game' so that it rewards consistency. For example, Adriano was a machine at his very best, but rarely gets into a draft because his peak was too short. And then you have someone like Alvaro Recoba who, a small handful of times a season, was an unstoppable match-winner, yet most of the time he failed to meet expectations.