Redcafe Sheep Draft QF2 - Cutch vs Thisistheone

[antohan]

Soviet union disbanded which caused a massive instability in the nations you mentioned and the entire Eastern Europe. Even more so as Yugoslavia were in a war and of course a war affects the near neighbors stability to a great extent as well.

The Golden era from Eastern Europe was during the time they belonged to the Communist side of the cold war. Most nations are still a work in progress but they have reached a point where they can provide brilliant talent in sports again.

I don't think the war affected neighbours TBH. I don't think political/economic instability is necessarily that big an issue either.

Having thought through it, maybe it's the way football was organised under Communist rule. There was always one team designated as the Party/Army's team and the best players were scouted and pretty much forced to join these teams, where they invariably got better coaching, partners, built a strong understanding, largely played together for the NT in international tournos as well...

Crucially, their development wasn't impacted by transfers, which is probably what has the most devastating effect. Many talented youngsters get signed up to reserve sides across Europe and, homesickness and turmoil aside, are just regarded as one of many bets on potential stars that may or may not work. It's usully a case of sink or swim. In those Communist regimes they wouldn't discard talent like that but actually focused on nurturing it, it was all part of national pride and state propaganda if you could bulld strong sides with star players. All those great players left their countries when they were already well established and developed players, not something that often happens these days.

 

[Annahnomoss]

I agree with all the extra points you brought up, but I think you underrate the life challenges it meant for the people. Poverty alone won't necessarily kill sports, but poverty combined with a highly unstable time-period where in most of those nations - mafias(and groups) fought to take all power possible certainly interferes with the priority of sports.

I doubt there are half as many Ukrainians out playing football matches today as a year ago. Take a look at African nations and how long it took them to go from "poor and unstable" to simply "poor".

The first time an African team won a match in a WC was 1978. 1986 was the first time they managed to get out of the group-stage. Currently plenty of African teams has a working football system and solid national sides.

So I think it is safe to say that unstable and poor nations are much more unlikely to create world-class talent.

 

[Isotope]

Adding Kaka to his setup is a clever move. Now Cutch's has someone to look up to, when Silva or Dunga has the ball. Voted early, to leave both managers enough time to make change if needed.

 

[antohan]

So I think it is safe to say that unstable and poor nations are much more unlikely to create world-class talent.

No shit Sherlock But then, you know, Laudrup would have been a better player if he was born in a slum (C). Apparently.

I didn't know African countries could be considered stable now. Have I missed something? Any African NTs that have done well have done so despite their domestic setup and largely thanks to Europe becoming their home. In fact, for Africa at least, the more lax foreign quotas in Europe and transfers in general have probably helped them, because there was no sound setup for nurturing talent back home, as there was in the Eastern bloc or in South America pre-90s.

Anyhow, we are derailing this

 

[antohan]

Voted early, to leave both managers enough time to make change if needed.

I'm thinking about doing that too. I like this new "Unvote" function, if 4-5 of us use it we could keep managers guessing all game I noticed a few scrubbed off their votes for EAP the other day... Imagine if 10+ did it in one go. Bedlam.

 

[Annahnomoss]

No shit Sherlock But then, you know, Laudrup would have been a better player if he was born in a slum (C). Apparently.

I didn't know African countries could be considered stable now. Have I missed something? Any African NTs that have done well have done so despite their domestic setup and largely thanks to Europe becoming their home. In fact, for Africa at least, the more lax foreign quotas in Europe and transfers in general have probably helped them, because there was no sound setup for nurturing talent back home, as there was in the Eastern bloc or in South America pre-90s.

Anyhow, we are derailing this

I think that the African nations has reached a point where their football set-ups are good enough. Of course if they had the money and stability we do over here they'd be much better no doubt about it.

Yup, also the Laudrup quote is too crazy. Not sure what he thought with there.

 

[Balu]

Yup, also the Laudrup quote is too crazy. Not sure what he thought with there.

He talked quite often about Laudrup being an artist, who lacked primitive anger, that he needed to make Laudrup angry so that he didn't forget to win games instead of just doing beautiful things with the ball. He probably had a point, hidden very deep in all that confusing nonsense he told. Couldn't have phrased it in a more idiotic way though .

 

[antohan]

Aye, he did have a point. A bit rich coming from him after '74, and the way he gets it across is downright mental. He always, invariaably, used backhanded compliments. Even when Laudrup shat on Barca after moving to Real, he found a way to put it down to his brilliance "when he could be bothered".

"Primitive anger", interesting, is that what your angry German mosaic was all about?

 

[Balu]

My team certainly didn't lack 'primitive anger'. Though I doubt Cruyff would have been a fan of that team

 

[antohan]

The problem with angry Germans on a United forum is we have all got to grips with the reality that they will often win, but when you beat them it's just beautiful to watch their tantrums Makes up for all the losses.

I'm sure more than one on here enjoyed the irony of all your players missing penos, even if it was all fantasy stuff.

 

[Thisistheone]

Quiet one so far but want to wait for cutch to come online

 

[Balu]

I'm sure more than one on here enjoyed the irony of all your players missing penos, even if it was all fantasy stuff.

I would be shocked if no one enjoyed the irony of that. Though, Pol needed a German goalkeeper to make it happen .

 

[antohan]

Quiet one so far but want to wait for cutch to come online

Yeah, think most of us are. Thought we had moved it to Thursday becuse he would be around?

 

[Isotope]

I'm thinking about doing that too. I like this new "Unvote" function, if 4-5 of us use it we could keep managers guessing all game I noticed a few scrubbed off their votes for EAP the other day... Imagine if 10+ did it in one go. Bedlam.

that would be a nightmare. Unless there's a drastic change in both setup (whic I can't see how), I'm trying to stay the vote as it is.

But then when you put Djemba2x at the last minutes, maybe I should review my vote, then

 

[antohan]

But then when you put Djemba2x at the last minutes, maybe I should review my vote, then

With five minutes to go he was safe, we were home and dry by then and Yaya was a spent force. So much so he had trouble keeping up with one of the Djembas. One was safely in his pocket but the other was running riot.

 

[Isotope]

With five minutes to go he was safe, we were home and dry by then and Yaya was a spent force. So much so he had trouble keeping up with one of the Djembas. One was safely in his pocket but the other was running riot.

Now I see what you're planning, mate. Just like that saying, he's so good, they named him twice.

 

[Cutch]

Sorry guys, only making it on here. Forgot to bring the mobile with me this morning, and had to go for a sleep there, knackered.

Will try and catchup here now.

Good writeup TITO. Good luck.

 

[Cutch]

@Cutch I agree very much on your comments regarding Stoichkov on the break against romaing Cafu and exploiting that space, but why should it be any different in the Suarez vs Alves case, or for that matter the Savicevic vs Sergi?

And a question for both managers, how much freedom roaming will both teams' full backs get?

The one thing for sure, TITO will dominate possession and Cutch will counter here, Kaka is the perfect fit for one side while Scholes is perfect on the other. Need some more thought..

Ok Viva, why would it be any different for TITO's side you ask.

A couple of reasons. Firstly i think there might be more onus on Cafu/Pessotto to provide the width in the side. Secondly, the hope is that my fullbacks have greater protection going forward with 2 DMs to help fill in whereas TITO only has Makelele who'll probably be needed to do a job on Kaka all game.

How much freedom you ask. Well, as much as they can get away with it. You know what Dani Alves is like and there'll be no keeping him back, but again the hope is that my team has the greater protection to allow them to do that.

 

[Cutch]

Both very well set up. While Makelele looks perfect for the setup and the rival at hand, I can't shake off the feeling the weakest link in that side has been left there and is bound to be exposed.

Pessotto?

 

[Cutch]

Don't you think Suarez will cause Alves as much damage as Stoichkov will cause Cafu? I don't see any difference there.. But I basically agree, just not leaning anywhere yet because TITO has a brilliant defensive line, a much better than Cutch's... Tactically Cutch might cause problems to TITO though. Not sure I'm leaning yet.

You really think so? My defenders are being underrated surely if you think thats the case.

 

[Cutch]

Mmmmm... I've actually been mulling over the opposite... Dunga and Mauro is becoming a regular "WC winning pair that will be a wall in midfield". But you don't see people scrambling to get either, do you? There's a reason they are so easily put together as a pair of late picks... Or are we all fools?

They actually did have a good World Cup together, as part (albeit not the sole part) of a strong defensive unit relying on Bebeto-Romario to bring the goals. Very much what Cutch is proposing.

They weren't that brilliant either side of it, and were generally lambasted as too negative and limited by the Brazilian media. Still, when you try think about WC-winning central/defensive midfield pairs you don't come up with anything significantly better in this era:

• 1986: Batista and Enrique (+Giusti and Olarticochea wide)
  
• 1990: Matthaus (+AMs and WBs but largely him as dedicated one)
  
• 1994: Dunga and Mauro (+Branco and Mazinho)
  
• 1998: Deschamps, Petit and Vieira/Karembeu
• 2002: Kleberson and Gilberto (+Edmilson as anchor/3rd CB)
• 2006: Gattuso and Pirlo (+ support from the wide players or De Rossi)
• 2010: Bunch of crazy midgets + Busquets

If you allow for different playing styles, how France could overkill because they had Zidane, Matthaus being banned to oblivion... It's only Gattuso-Pirlo which may have proved a better fit, but with Hierro joining the defence, Dunga and Mauro should be well suited to their role in this game.

Very important components in a team that had 5 clean sheets in 7 games at World Cup 1994. That was good enough peak form for me. Don't think Dunga's the most fashionable player which is probably why he's usually so late to be snapped up, and he probably wouldn't have interested me if i hadn't already got his mate.

 

[Cutch]

There's a difference between the two. Due to Cutch sitting back and defending in numbers Alves will have ample support, and Suarez usually cuts inside so he will be running at this CBs more than isolating Alves. If Suarez goes out wide just to exploit the space left by Alves out would not cause any harm for Cutch. While on the other hand I see it a lot more individual battles and more importantly Cutch's players are absolutely potent in counters. Pushing up against that unit with Hierro launching counters is heavy work for most defensive units. Stoichkov doesn't need to take on Cafu the whole game, he's not an out and out winger anyway, and those four breaking together would simply occupy the space left due to Cutch's players pushing up instead of running into defenders. It's well suited to bring the best out of them imo.

The biggest problem for Cutch obviously is that if TITO scores first and decides to pull the shutters down, his threat would be reduced considerably.

Spot on Aldo. Exactly how i wanted to answer that question above if i wasn't so tired. Hierro's role in launching quick attacks will also be important as you mention, and TITO hasn't got the same distribution from the back, which isn't being critical, just that Hierro is a pass master.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

You really think so? My defenders are being underrated surely if you think thats the case.

Well I guess it's not a tough comparison, Cafu is miles better than Alves(who doesn't really play football where he soaks up pressure), I'd take Pessoto over Sergi and either of Montero/Ferrara over Puyol. I'll give you credit that Hierro is the best CB in the match but if I take into consideration Cafu+rest of TITO's back three's familiarity of each other I feel they are much better.
And that's coming from someone who absolutely adore Hierro.
But I agree that they have more protection than TITO's do, and I feel your team is perfectly built for playing counter attacking football apart from Alves and Puyol. That's why I'm undecided yet.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

Spot on Aldo. Exactly how i wanted to answer that question above if i wasn't so tired. Hierro's role in launching quick attacks will also be important as you mention, and TITO hasn't got the same distribution from the back, which isn't being critical, just that Hierro is a pass master.

That's exactly what I mean by "your team is perfectly built for playing counter attacking football". Him, Kaka, Stoichkov, Romario with the two DMs and Luis Enrique who runs endlessly, I wouldn't want to dominate possession against that side.

Jesus, I'm convincing myself back and forth here.. Really interesting match indeed.

 

[Cutch]

Yeah, think most of us are. Thought we had moved it to Thursday becuse he would be around?

Thursday not ideal for me either, but was planning on posting from the mobile which i forgot this morning like a dick. Think my data usage might be up on it anyway.

 

[Cutch]

That's exactly what I mean by "your team is perfectly built for playing counter attacking football". Him, Kaka, Stoichkov, Romario with the two DMs and Luis Enrique who runs endlessly, I wouldn't want to dominate possession against that side.

Jesus, I'm convincing myself back and forth here.. Really interesting match indeed.

Yeah, good game for sure. Hopefully we've provided enough info to help you to pick a winner.

 

[Cutch]

I'm leaning towards Tito. Totti dropping between the DM's and CB's is going to cause confusion and with Suarez hovering around, one of Scholes passes will definitely split the defence. So I think Tito will have at least one goal in the match.

Any side with Romario in it should automatically start on atleast 1 goal though

 

[Annahnomoss]

Ok Viva, why would it be any different for TITO's side you ask.

A couple of reasons. Firstly i think there might be more onus on Cafu/Pessotto to provide the width in the side. Secondly, the hope is that my fullbacks have greater protection going forward with 2 DMs to help fill in whereas TITO only has Makelele who'll probably be needed to do a job on Kaka all game.

How much freedom you ask. Well, as much as they can get away with it. You know what Dani Alves is like and there'll be no keeping him back, but again the hope is that my team has the greater protection to allow them to do that.

Brilliant point mate.

 

[Theon]

Enjoying this discussion - two great sides.

Not sure on the point that TITO is more reliant on his fullbacks for width, there may be a marginal difference there but its hardly as if Stoichkov and Enrique were touchline huggers.

 

[Cutch]

The customary Romario vid. With Kaka in behind now driving at the defence, and with the off the ball runs from Stoitchkov and Enrique either side, the back 4 surely won't be able to withstand the avalanche of pace and power.

 

[Cutch]

Prime Kaka. Remind yourself of these type of performances if you need to as its a while from we've seen them.

It might be harsh on TITO's main man Totti, but he's never made this type of impact on a European or International competition.

 

[Moby]

The way I look at it, one great thing about Tito's team which he also elaborated on was the ability to switch between frontfoot and backfoot with ease depending on the situation, as the players don't need one particular style to be at their best, which is what makes that first goal, or even a lead with say 30 odd minutes to go important. In that scenario, that team can easily switch to defense after pushing on for most of the game and have the tools to carry it out, perhaps better than Cutch's if we go by the nature of the defenders. With the Seria A core and Makelele sitting in front of them, they can go out and accomplish a typical Mourinho style 1-0 win with scoring once and then just camping back. And I don't think Cutch's players would be that capable of unlocking a tight defense once Tito goes into that state.

Same goes for Cutch, if his team scores first, Tito will have no other option but to attack even more and Cutch can happily counter back and continue the threat.

 

[Isotope]

Well I guess it's not a tough comparison, Cafu is miles better than Alves(who doesn't really play football where he soaks up pressure), I'd take Pessoto over Sergi.

Is Pessoto that good? Seems like most Barca fans put Sergi in their all time XI. And so is for Spain. He's fast, strong, great stamina, and good passer.

 

[NM]

I think Cutch has the better team.. But Tito took 2 of my players while Cutch took only 1.. I'm kind of partial to Cafu, Scholes and Makelele, so this is a toughie.

Hard to vote for a team with Suarez out of principle though!

 

[Cutch]

Is Pessoto that good? Seems like most Barca fans put Sergi in their all time XI. And so is for Spain. He's fast, strong, great stamina, and good passer.

Yep, every Barca dream team i've ever seen picked has Sergi as their best ever left back. Infact the general consensus is that i have 3 of their 4 all time back 4 in my lineup. Just the 1 to go, but i might get him in the next round if i got through .

I would rate him higher than Pessotto, but then i'm biased.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Sergi is above Pessotta in my mind too. Puyol is generally very underrated too, he was part of the lowest conceding WC champions in history. That Spain team of '10 wasn't a dominating tiki-taka team either - the matches went back and forth a lot. Puyol was at the heart of the defense of that record breaking team, as he was for Barcelona/Spain in general but in the '10 WC the defense of spain/Barca stood out and possibly carried the team for the first time.

 

[RoadTrip]

Really tough one this but have gone for Cutch. I think I really like the front 4 for cutch. The midfield battle would be incredible I think. Was a tough one.

 

[Thisistheone]

It might be harsh on TITO's main man Totti, but he's never made this type of impact on a European or International competition.

Definitely harsh mate Totti has produced at the highest level. Plus, Kaka played in better sides. Milan at the time were the best in Europe. Three finals in five years, or close to. Totti just refused to leave Roma. Thus we were all denied the opportunity to watch him take a Madrid or Utd to a higher level.

"He is the best player with whom I have ever worked. He could have won several Ballons d'Or had he left Roma for Barcelona or Manchester United.

 

[Thisistheone]

Sergi is above Pessotta in my mind too. Puyol is generally very underrated too, he was part of the lowest conceding WC champions in history. That Spain team of '10 wasn't a dominating tiki-taka team either - the matches went back and forth a lot. Puyol was at the heart of the defense of that record breaking team, as he was for Barcelona/Spain in general but in the '10 WC the defense of spain/Barca stood out and possibly carried the team for the first time.

Whilst I wouldn't disagree with that, it is more a case of who these two are up against here, and Sergi in particular will have hell from Savicevic. As we saw in 1994 CL final. Sergi got subbed off after 71 minutes with the score at 4-0 and Dejan running riot.

 

[Thisistheone]

That's exactly what I mean by "your team is perfectly built for playing counter attacking football". Him, Kaka, Stoichkov, Romario with the two DMs and Luis Enrique who runs endlessly, I wouldn't want to dominate possession against that side.

Jesus, I'm convincing myself back and forth here.. Really interesting match indeed.

Really believe my side has the attacking flexibility to avoid being sucked into a counter punch. With Makelele and Cafu added to the mix, the Juve back line, Scholes, the pace up top, my side can counter brilliantly as well.