Refs & VAR 2020/2021 Discussion

[Anustart89]

fecking hell, the VAR in Fulham-Southampton checking for a handball penalty, watches fifteen replays, then goes back to watch if it was offside in the build-up and all and then ends up not recommending a pitchside review

Surely you're about to recommend a check if you're going back to see whether it was offside or not? Or does offside/not offside impact whether you think the handball was illegal? "He was onside so it's not a handball ten seconds later, but if he'd have been offside it would've been handball".

The problem is obviously the morons that are refereeing the game.

 

[Foxbatt]

It is getting ridiculous but it is not the VAR itself but the referees. The Arsenal Chelsea game was a ridiculous penalty. Dermot Gallagher is an idiot. How can he say with a straight face that when the Chelsea player does not tackle or touch the Arsenal player that the referee does not make a mistake?

 

[Annihilate Now!]

This one is pretty baffling

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Its pretty clear that the refs that are operating VAR just aren't fit for purpose.

Surely they should now be having VAR only refs and pitch only refs? Keep them separate.

 

[Anustart89]

This one is pretty baffling

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Its pretty clear that the refs that are operating VAR just aren't fit for purpose.

Surely they should now be having VAR only refs and pitch only refs? Keep them separate.

Every team should just go and put the ball in play after a penalty incident which would make it impossible for VAR to check it if the ref lets them play on before noticing there might have been an incident to watch.

 

[MikeKing]

Why wasn't it handball on the Wolves defender? I'm sure I've seen plenty handballs given both inside and outside the box this season. Should have been a penalty.

 

[Mb194dc]

What about the Utd game yesterday. Surely the Pogba penalty and Maguire handball should both have been reviewed by VAR?

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Maguire got given get out of jail free card at the beginning of this season ?

 

[kiristao]

Just a quick question on Villas goal last night.
They tried to take it quickly and AWB blocked it and the Ref allowed them to take it one more time and they took that one quickly as well.
Correct me if I am wrong but IMO, either the ball should have been in play once the first quick freekick was blocked or the ref should have pushed everyone back by 10 yards and only then allow play to start.

 

[Jeppers7]

What about the Utd game yesterday. Surely the Pogba penalty and Maguire handball should both have been reviewed by VAR?

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Maguire got given get out of jail free card at the beginning of this season ?

Wow is this serious? The Pogba penalty was checked by VAR and given because it was a definite penalty. The Maguire one I’ve just seen for the first time is never a penalty. There’s been loads of those not given since the interpretation of the rule changed. We’ve already suffered a shocker of a penalty against v Palace before the changes. That said typical rival bias....see you haven’t put a clip of Mings elbow on Pogba that actually should have been a pen and a red card.

 

[Mb194dc]

Wow is this serious? The Pogba penalty was checked by VAR and given because it was a definite penalty. The Maguire one I’ve just seen for the first time is never a penalty. There’s been loads of those not given since the interpretation of the rule changed. We’ve already suffered a shocker of a penalty against v Palace before the changes. That said typical rival bias....see you haven’t put a clip of Mings elbow on Pogba that actually should have been a pen and a red card.

Didn't see the game but that surprises me, thought would be overturned if reviewed and ref looks at Pogba tripping himself. Just saw in the other thread and on twitter.

Definitely wouldn't describe the Pogba incident penalty as definite or stonewall, maybe a tiny bit of contact with the Villa player but you can't easily see it, Villa player taking his space on the pitch, doesn't even try to make a tackle and Pogba goes down because he trips over himself, very soft. Play on probably the better call I think.

Feel free to post the Mings elbow haven't seen that.

 

[Jeppers7]

Didn't see the game but that surprises me, thought would be overturned if reviewed and ref looks at Pogba tripping himself. Just saw in the other thread and on twitter.

Definitely wouldn't describe the Pogba incident penalty as definite or stonewall, maybe a tiny bit of contact with the Villa player but you can't easily see it, Villa player taking his space on the pitch, doesn't even try to make a tackle and Pogba goes down because he trips over himself, very soft. Play on probably the better call I think.

Feel free to post the Mings elbow haven't seen that.

The villa player causes the tangle by being in a poor position to start with from the throw, gets turned and then begins to grapple, never a good idea. Pogba doesn’t trip himself over? Luiz is just too close, initiates the contact and there is a clip that is clear on Pogbas ankle causing his left foot to hit his right foot, like that thing you do as a kid to your mate and that I still do to my daughter, that leads to the fall. It’s clumsy by Luiz. Of course it’s not a leg breaker....it’s just a clear foul anywhere on the pitch.

VAR thought it was, the ref did and so did everyone on Sky....and you know when we get a penalty that we shouldn’t because the entire media picks up on it.

 

[Jeppers7]

Didn't see the game but that surprises me, thought would be overturned if reviewed and ref looks at Pogba tripping himself. Just saw in the other thread and on twitter.

Definitely wouldn't describe the Pogba incident penalty as definite or stonewall, maybe a tiny bit of contact with the Villa player but you can't easily see it, Villa player taking his space on the pitch, doesn't even try to make a tackle and Pogba goes down because he trips over himself, very soft. Play on probably the better call I think.

Feel free to post the Mings elbow haven't seen that.

You’ll easily find the Mings elbow on Pogba in the Mings thread. Disgusting, nowhere near the ball and clatters into Pogbas face with his forearm with force. Leaves him on the floor blood pouring from his mouth.

 

[bazza3727]

Why wasn't it handball on the Wolves defender? I'm sure I've seen plenty handballs given both inside and outside the box this season. Should have been a penalty.

If it wasn't a penalty, then is Cavani played onside by the defender playing the ball to him?

 

[Anustart89]

Didn't see the game but that surprises me, thought would be overturned if reviewed and ref looks at Pogba tripping himself. Just saw in the other thread and on twitter.

Definitely wouldn't describe the Pogba incident penalty as definite or stonewall, maybe a tiny bit of contact with the Villa player but you can't easily see it, Villa player taking his space on the pitch, doesn't even try to make a tackle and Pogba goes down because he trips over himself, very soft. Play on probably the better call I think.

Feel free to post the Mings elbow haven't seen that.

Pogba trips himself because Luiz puts his leg in Pogba's path, which makes Pogba's foot hook into Luiz's calf and subsequently make him trip himself up. His balanc wasn't really helped by Luiz holding his left arm straight out at shoulder height either.

Here's the Mings elbow that VAR didn't bother to check even though he had a two-three minute break during which he had nothing else to do other than to watch Pogba's bleeding mouth being attended to.


I can't see where the ball is supposed to have hit Maguire's arm? I mean, I see where the video stops to say "look, here's the contact with the arm!" but then the ball just drops straight down without changing direction. Am I to take it that Maguire is a ghost then and that the ball just went through his arm, or is it an indication of how hard it is to judge 3D in a 2D picture?

 

[Mb194dc]

Pogba trips himself because Luiz puts his leg in Pogba's path, which makes Pogba's foot hook into Luiz's calf and subsequently make him trip himself up. His balanc wasn't really helped by Luiz holding his left arm straight out at shoulder height either.

Here's the Mings elbow that VAR didn't bother to check even though he had a two-three minute break during which he had nothing else to do other than to watch Pogba's bleeding mouth being attended to.


I can't see where the ball is supposed to have hit Maguire's arm? I mean, I see where the video stops to say "look, here's the contact with the arm!" but then the ball just drops straight down without changing direction. Am I to take it that Maguire is a ghost then and that the ball just went through his arm, or is it an indication of how hard it is to judge 3D in a 2D picture?

Yeah that is pretty shocking, surely they at least reviewed it and let the referee check on the monitor? Looks a red to me most probably.

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

What about the Utd game yesterday. Surely the Pogba penalty and Maguire handball should both have been reviewed by VAR?

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Maguire got given get out of jail free card at the beginning of this season ?

Clutching at straws much!

The Pogba challenge is a stonewall penalty, they clip his ankle onto his other one which is basically the equivalent of a tap tackle in rugby. That Maguire handball doesn’t even need looking at, nothing in that at all. Are you going to ignore the fact that Mings dived into Pogba with his elbow in what was another stonewall penalty. Come on you can do better than this fella.

 

[Anustart89]

Yeah that is pretty shocking, surely they at least reviewed it and let the referee check on the monitor? Looks a red to me most probably.

No review.

I mean, if you're a ref who cares to uphold the laws of the game and you see a player with a bloody face, surely you'd be going like "Hm, I wonder what happened there", especially with nothing else to do while play is stopped for a couple of minutes. At that point, if you bothered to watch that, surely you'd tell the referee to go have a look because he missed an elbow to the face nowhere near the ball.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Didn't see the game but that surprises me, thought would be overturned if reviewed and ref looks at Pogba tripping himself. Just saw in the other thread and on twitter.

Definitely wouldn't describe the Pogba incident penalty as definite or stonewall, maybe a tiny bit of contact with the Villa player but you can't easily see it, Villa player taking his space on the pitch, doesn't even try to make a tackle and Pogba goes down because he trips over himself, very soft. Play on probably the better call I think.

Feel free to post the Mings elbow haven't seen that.

There's no way anyone can prove Pogba tripped himself without the touch from Douglas Luiz, therefore because the ref gave the penalty - you can't say it should have been overturned. Had the ref not given the penalty, I still think it would have been given after review because it looks, from all angles, like Luiz inadvertently trips Pogba by pushing his foot behind his standing leg. It's soft but it's a foul. This one is the least contentious for me because we have seen a lot of these soft but 50/50 type calls long before VAR came along and will continue to see them given or not given.

The Maguire handball is lucky in that it's definitely accidental but his arm is away from his body and there's a real argument that he's altering the flight of the ball in a goal scoring situation. I am surprised that was not VAR reviewed pitch side although it would have been harsh (I am aware I am biased ).

The Mings elbow I originally thought was nothing but, when you look at it in slow mo, he is leading with his elbow into Pogba's face (and makes contact with his mouth). It's tough because he has to challenge and it's natural to lead with an arm, although not that high but I don't see why VAR didn't flag that to Oliver to watch pitch side as well.

 

[Mb194dc]

There's no way anyone can prove Pogba tripped himself without the touch from Douglas Luiz, therefore because the ref gave the penalty - you can't say it should have been overturned. Had the ref not given the penalty, I still think it would have been given after review because it looks, from all angles, like Luiz inadvertently trips Pogba by pushing his foot behind his standing leg. It's soft but it's a foul. This one is the least contentious for me because we have seen a lot of these soft but 50/50 type calls long before VAR came along and will continue to see them given or not given.

The Maguire handball is lucky in that it's definitely accidental but his arm is away from his body and there's a real argument that he's altering the flight of the ball in a goal scoring situation. I am surprised that was not VAR reviewed pitch side although it would have been harsh (I am aware I am biased ).

The Mings elbow I originally thought was nothing but, when you look at it in slow mo, he is leading with his elbow into Pogba's face (and makes contact with his mouth). It's tough because he has to challenge and it's natural to lead with an arm, although not that high but I don't see why VAR didn't flag that to Oliver to watch pitch side as well.

Very reasonable post.

Seems Paul Tierney was on VAR in the game and will surely have some questions to answer.

 

[Anustart89]

The Maguire handball is lucky in that it's definitely accidental but his arm is away from his body and there's a real argument that he's altering the flight of the ball in a goal scoring situation. I am surprised that was not VAR reviewed pitch side although it would have been harsh (I am aware I am biased ).

I've seen the video of this handball, and for me there's still no conclusive evidence that it even hit the arm in the first place. There's one video where the video stops as the ball appears to be on top of Maguire's arm, but then it just drops down without changing path, which suggests that the ball is behind the arm (relative to the camera) without making contact (or that Maguire's a ghost and that objects can pass freely through him).

Is there some other video that shows the ball changing its direction in any way whatsoever to indicate that ball touched hand, or is it just based on a 2D-image where the ball appears to be close to the arm?

 

[sullydnl]

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Fine by me.

 

[acnumber9]

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Fine by me.

It doesn’t even hit his arm. He headed the ball against the Villa players head and that’s why it dropped straight down.

 

[Jeppers7]

There's no way anyone can prove Pogba tripped himself without the touch from Douglas Luiz, therefore because the ref gave the penalty - you can't say it should have been overturned. Had the ref not given the penalty, I still think it would have been given after review because it looks, from all angles, like Luiz inadvertently trips Pogba by pushing his foot behind his standing leg. It's soft but it's a foul. This one is the least contentious for me because we have seen a lot of these soft but 50/50 type calls long before VAR came along and will continue to see them given or not given.

The Maguire handball is lucky in that it's definitely accidental but his arm is away from his body and there's a real argument that he's altering the flight of the ball in a goal scoring situation. I am surprised that was not VAR reviewed pitch side although it would have been harsh (I am aware I am biased ).

The Mings elbow I originally thought was nothing but, when you look at it in slow mo, he is leading with his elbow into Pogba's face (and makes contact with his mouth). It's tough because he has to challenge and it's natural to lead with an arm, although not that high but I don't see why VAR didn't flag that to Oliver to watch pitch side as well.

It doesn’t hit Maguires arm.

 

[Mb194dc]

Meanwhile in the Spurs game:

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Contact is outside the box and he falls in to it?

 

[cyberman]

Meanwhile in the Spurs game:

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Contact is outside the box and he falls in to it?

On the line is in the box

 

[sullydnl]

Meanwhile in the Spurs game:

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Contact is outside the box and he falls in to it?

We were talking about this in the main thread.

The point they chose to judge the contact in was 100% inside the box as all of the line counts as inside the box. The question is why they chose that particular point.

Pure speculation: am I right in thinking that a foul that starts outside the box and continues into the box is a penalty? Because contact seems to still be ongoing at the point they actually based the decision on, in which case the foul itself may still be ongoing?

I know the point of initial contact doesn't have to be the point of the foul but I'm not sure how they actually decide the point of the foul or whether this is indeed the moment they should have judged from.

 

[Bubz27]

Great that once again the narrative has been built that we got lucky last night. Luiz didn't purposefully trip Pogba but his leg is in the way of Pogba's leg as Pogba is running. That's a foul all over the pitch.

Maguire "handball" is hilarious as well. One, there's no proof it touches his arm and two, if it did it's amazing there's outrage when there was no such outrage when Coady handballed against us the other day.

 

[One Night Only]

To me, if the attacker is in the box, but contact is outside, it's a foul in the box anyway, you could stand outside the box and grab someone's arm who was in the box otherwise and just get a FK given against you. Makes sense it was a penalty to Spurs.

 

[tomaldinho1]

It doesn’t hit Maguires arm.

Looks to me like it does, for me it's similar to the Pogba penalty. Did Douglas Luiz push Pogba's leg behind his standing leg, no one can definitively say yes or no. For me, as I said before, I think it would have been harsh but I believe his arm, completely accidentally, alters the falling balls' path.

I've seen the video of this handball, and for me there's still no conclusive evidence that it even hit the arm in the first place. There's one video where the video stops as the ball appears to be on top of Maguire's arm, but then it just drops down without changing path, which suggests that the ball is behind the arm (relative to the camera) without making contact (or that Maguire's a ghost and that objects can pass freely through him).

Is there some other video that shows the ball changing its direction in any way whatsoever to indicate that ball touched hand, or is it just based on a 2D-image where the ball appears to be close to the arm?

I've seen two and I think it comes off the shoulder of the opposition player, hits Maguire's arm and then falls. It's completely up for debate as I have yet to see an angle that proves/disproves conclusively it hit his arm. Point is, with the new law clarifications I don't think it would have been given but I understand why some people are criticising VAR for not looking at it (as I understand it was never reviewed?).

 

[Denis' cuff]

Looks to me like it does, for me it's similar to the Pogba penalty. Did Douglas Luiz push Pogba's leg behind his standing leg, no one can definitively say yes or no. For me, as I said before, I think it would have been harsh but I believe his arm, completely accidentally, alters the falling balls' path.



I've seen two and I think it comes off the shoulder of the opposition player, hits Maguire's arm and then falls. It's completely up for debate as I have yet to see an angle that proves/disproves conclusively it hit his arm. Point is, with the new law clarifications I don't think it would have been given but I understand why some people are criticising VAR for not looking at it (as I understand it was never reviewed?).

I think you are the only one on here who doesn’t clearly see Pogbas trailing foot knocked by the defender causing the trip

ditto, the imaginary “contact” with Maguires arm. It just does not alter course = no evidence of contact at all

 

[Jeppers7]

Looks to me like it does, for me it's similar to the Pogba penalty. Did Douglas Luiz push Pogba's leg behind his standing leg, no one can definitively say yes or no. For me, as I said before, I think it would have been harsh but I believe his arm, completely accidentally, alters the falling balls' path.



I've seen two and I think it comes off the shoulder of the opposition player, hits Maguire's arm and then falls. It's completely up for debate as I have yet to see an angle that proves/disproves conclusively it hit his arm. Point is, with the new law clarifications I don't think it would have been given but I understand why some people are criticising VAR for not looking at it (as I understand it was never reviewed?).

There’s a video on here that clearly shows the ball doesn’t touch Maguires arm at all. Even if it did it wouldn’t be a penalty due to the fact it’s deflected onto the arm from the head.

 

[tomaldinho1]

There’s a video on here that clearly shows the ball doesn’t touch Maguires arm at all. Even if it did it wouldn’t be a penalty due to the fact it’s deflected onto the arm from the head.

Ok, not seen that one will have a look. For me, it looked like it did but might not have seen all the angles.

I think you are the only one on here who doesn’t clearly see Pogbas trailing foot knocked by the defender causing the trip

ditto, the imaginary “contact” with Maguires arm. It just does not alter course = no evidence of contact at all

Please see my earlier post, that's exactly what I think happened. My point is you can't definitively say he did or did not from the angles (hence my opinion that once the ref blows for the penalty, VAR cannot overturn)

Edit: talking about Pogba peno @Denis' cuff

 

[giorno]

I know the point of initial contact doesn't have to be the point of the foul but I'm not sure how they actually decide the point of the foul or whether this is indeed the moment they should have judged from.

The point of greatest advantage to the "attacking" team

So in this specific case, the penalty is correct

 

[Foxbatt]

Ok, not seen that one will have a look. For me, it looked like it did but might not have seen all the angles.

Please see my earlier post, that's exactly what I think happened. My point is you can't definitively say he did or did not from the angles (hence my opinion that once the ref blows for the penalty, VAR cannot overturn)

Edit: talking about Pogba peno @Denis' cuff

Of course VAR can tell the referee that he should look at it on the monitor again. That's a penalty. The referee was right in front and very close to the incident. VAR did look at it too and decided that it was a penalty.

 

[MikeKing]

If it wasn't a penalty, then is Cavani played onside by the defender playing the ball to him?

Well, no. If it hit the leg of the defender he would still be offside as it's just a deflection. If the arm isn't considered a foul it's still just a deflection since it's a part of the body similar to the leg and he wasn't in control of the ball. I think if he stopped the ball cold and cleared it, it should always be a penalty. However, the difference in doing that and doing what he did here could be minuscule in certain situations. Honestly I'm not sure what should happen. What I am sure of though, is that whatever the protocol for this should be, should also be clarified and consistently applied. It's not even defined properly yet. I would totally get over it easier if I feel angry and then could rely on a rule, even if it's kinda dumb.

The exception would be in regards to players like Mings and the things they do. I mean, the guy has stamped on someones head twice without any punishment. Once, the guy almost went blind and had his face ruined. The player acts remorseful on twitter, but continues to throw elbows and similar acts of light violence every game. It's only a matter of time before he kills someone or make them blind by stamping on their head or similar. He is out for blood and should realistically never get to play another football match again at any level, yet because of some rule that a 'if a ref had a look' at a certain incident he can't be punished retrospectively. It's beyond ridiculous when you just know that the incident might have a murder victim at the end of it Do we have to wait until the tragedy happens to get him removed from the game? He could stamp on Salah's head so he'll never see light again next time and we'll just have to accept that as a part of the risk when playing a game of football. I don't. Nobody should. I want him out of the game before something like that happens.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Of course VAR can tell the referee that he should look at it on the monitor again. That's a penalty. The referee was right in front and very close to the incident. VAR did look at it too and decided that it was a penalty.

My point is the way VAR works, once a ref has blown it is very rare for them to be overruled. Whereas if the ref doesn’t blow - the bar seems much higher for VAR to then retrospectively award a penalty. The foul on Pogba was a penalty in my opinion but, had Michael Oliver not blown, I don’t think it would have been retrospectively given.

 

[Jeppers7]

My point is the way VAR works, once a ref has blown it is very rare for them to be overruled. Whereas if the ref doesn’t blow - the bar seems much higher for VAR to then retrospectively award a penalty. The foul on Pogba was a penalty in my opinion but, had Michael Oliver not blown, I don’t think it would have been retrospectively given.

Which would therefore have been incorrect.

So what’s your point? If the ref had got it wrong....VAR would have got it wrong?

Also you don’t know this anyway. There’s every chance var sees the clip and the arm tug and sends the ref for a look. This is all irrelevant hypothetical hearsay anyway since the ref gave the correct decision in the first instance.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Which would therefore have been incorrect.

So what’s your point? If the ref had got it wrong....VAR would have got it wrong?

Also you don’t know this anyway. There’s every chance var sees the clip and the arm tug and sends the ref for a look. This is all irrelevant hypothetical hearsay anyway since the ref gave the correct decision in the first instance.

In the same way you know categorically that the ball did not touch Maguire's arm? I've yet to see the angle where there's proof it didn't (in the same way we can't say 100% that it did) but feel free to reply to this and show me as I would be interested in seeing it.

I was replying to a different poster so weird you would feel the need to jump in. My point, as I made earlier, is that I understand why some people think it is soft/not a penalty but - because of the way VAR is run - the Pogba penalty is the one that should have the least controversy because Oliver flagged it & therefore it makes it highly unlikely VAR would have overruled the on field decision because it is not clear & obvious (either way).

 

[Jeppers7]

In the same way you know categorically that the ball did not touch Maguire's arm? I've yet to see the angle where there's proof it didn't (in the same way we can't say 100% that it did) but feel free to reply to this and show me as I would be interested in seeing it.

I was replying to a different poster so weird you would feel the need to jump in. My point, as I made earlier, is that I understand why some people think it is soft/not a penalty but - because of the way VAR is run - the Pogba penalty is the one that should have the least controversy because Oliver flagged it & therefore it makes it highly unlikely VAR would have overruled the on field decision because it is not clear & obvious (either way).

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/michael-oliver.381321/post-26587492

There you go. I’m still not sure what you’re going on about. The ref correctly gave the penalty. VAR correctly upheld it. End of discussion really. No need to carry on.

 

[tomaldinho1]

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/michael-oliver.381321/post-26587492

There you go. I’m still not sure what you’re going on about. The ref correctly gave the penalty. VAR correctly upheld it. End of discussion really. No need to carry on.

I'm a bit lost. I agree with the decision and was pointing out, to a different poster, the way VAR is implemented it means the Pogba penalty is not controversial at all. You have chosen to jump in, misunderstand what's going on and so there's no wonder it doesn't make sense.

FYI Thank you re Maguire alternate angle, definitely looks like he's in the clear.

 

[Jeppers7]

I'm a bit lost. I agree with the decision and was pointing out, to a different poster, the way VAR is implemented it means the Pogba penalty is not controversial at all. You have chosen to jump in, misunderstand what's going on and so there's no wonder it doesn't make sense.

FYI Thank you re Maguire alternate angle, definitely looks like he's in the clear.

No worries.