Refs & VAR 2020/2021 Discussion

[sullydnl]

The Son decision was fine.

Foot to foot offsides are always quicker as the offside points are on the same plane. Once you have the offside line from the defender's foot you can see Son is onside. Whereas if it was being measured from a shoulder or something then they would have needed the 3D calculations, which takes more time.

In this case you that Son is onside almost immediately, so they don't need to do a full calibration as there's nothing else to consider. It's nothing new, it just doesn't happen all the time because different incidents don't allow it.

 

[Mb194dc]

The Son decision was fine.

Foot to foot offsides are always quicker as the offside points are on the same plane. Once you have the offside line from the defender's foot you can see Son is onside. Whereas if it was being measured from a shoulder or something then they would have needed the 3D calculations, which takes more time.

In this case you that Son is onside almost immediately, so they don't need to do a full calibration as there's nothing else to consider. It's nothing new, it just doesn't happen all the time because different incidents don't allow it.

Do you work for the premier league or associated PR ?

Always defending these calls... Will be waiting to see other incidents like this where they just wave it on after 5 seconds this season.

Is there a written procedure somewhere for how calls are meant to be done by VAR? Explaining that they don't need to bother with two lines in some circumstances? Or is it just made up as they go along?

Having looked at it again, can see what the problem is. They calibrate the lines, showing he's off and then move the line so it's not touching the Liverpool player anymore to make him on?: If you take the video where it actually lines up with the Liverpool defender he's off.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

The Son decision was fine.

Foot to foot offsides are always quicker as the offside points are on the same plane. Once you have the offside line from the defender's foot you can see Son is onside. Whereas if it was being measured from a shoulder or something then they would have needed the 3D calculations, which takes more time.

In this case you that Son is onside almost immediately, so they don't need to do a full calibration as there's nothing else to consider. It's nothing new, it just doesn't happen all the time because different incidents don't allow it.

Even comparing “foot offsides” you would expect two lines. One for the attacker, one for the defender. They never showed a second line and - based on the still images we did see - this was a close call.

 

[Murray3007]

not sure how anyone can argue about the son decision, both players feet are the nearest to the goal, both on the exact same line, dont no why people would be expecting arm pit lines to be drawn.

VAR dont work for me because football has to many subjective calls, Rules have all changed to much, lets be honest no one has a clue about all the rules now, they have invested to much in to it so it wont be scrapped but will turn people away from football eventually.

 

[sullydnl]

Even comparing “foot offsides” you would expect two lines. One for the attacker, one for the defender. They never showed a second line and - based on the still images we did see - this was a close call.

You don't need another line if you can see the attacker is onside from the defender's line though, as that's the offside line. A second line wouldn't mean anything, because we can already see where it would be drawn in relation to the first.

I think (though I may be wrong) that if Son was shown to be offside when the first line was drawn then they would draw the second for the sake of illustrating the offside. But when they can see he's onside straight away they don't want to delay for no reason.

Do you work for the premier league or associated PR ?

Always defending these calls... Will be waiting to see other incidents like this where they just wave it on after 5 seconds this season.

Is there a written procedure somewhere for how calls are meant to be done by VAR? Explaining that they don't need to bother with two lines in some circumstances? Or is it just made up as they go along?

Having looked at it again, can see what the problem is. They calibrate the lines, showing he's off and then move the line so it's not touching the Liverpool player anymore to make him on?: If you take the video where it actually lines up with the Liverpool defender he's off.

Ha, no these aren't paid opinions, I just don't have a problem with this offside or VAR offsides generally really. I complain plenty about the way they handle subjective calls though, because that's a bigger problem imo. Offsides will take care of themselves in the long run.

As for the bold, you don't have to wait. We have examples from before. The below Salah onside call against City (last season, I think?) was handled in exactly the same way. The offside line was drawn, Salah is clearly onside, it would be pointless to draw any further lines so they don't. People had the same complaints then too.

Spoiler

 

[Moonwalker]

This has every element of a prejudice. Basically, the angry grandpa squadron will absorb any and all views into their attitude towards VAR, so long as it's negative. Takes too long, slows the game down. When a decision is made quickly (Like Son's onside position) - didn't take long enough, where was the other line?

In the Fulham game, the ref first doesn't see the incident, then VAR tells him to get a better look at it (implying they thought there's at least an argument for why it's not not a penalty). Ref sticks to his original decision - "how could VAR miss such an obvious penalty?"

It beggars belief, it really does.

 

[Zlatan 7]

I watched MOTD last night and realised after a few games, after every goal was scored I was waiting to see what was wrong with it before accepting it was a goal or when a goal was scored I was scanning the box to look for offsides etc. Had to have a word with myself then and try to just watch the highlights and try to accept goals as they came, but I couldn’t

 

[MikeeMike]

Do you work for the premier league or associated PR ?

Always defending these calls... Will be waiting to see other incidents like this where they just wave it on after 5 seconds this season.

Is there a written procedure somewhere for how calls are meant to be done by VAR? Explaining that they don't need to bother with two lines in some circumstances? Or is it just made up as they go along?

Having looked at it again, can see what the problem is. They calibrate the lines, showing he's off and then move the line so it's not touching the Liverpool player anymore to make him on?: If you take the video where it actually lines up with the Liverpool defender he's off.

Well I cant post images but that is clearly photoshopped.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

You don't need another line if you can see the attacker is onside from the defender's line though, as that's the offside line. A second line wouldn't mean anything, because we can already see where it would be drawn in relation to the first.

I think (though I may be wrong) that if Son was shown to be offside when the first line was drawn then they would draw the second for the sake of illustrating the offside. But when they can see he's onside straight away they don't want to delay for no reason.



Ha, no these aren't paid opinions, I just don't have a problem with this offside or VAR offsides generally really. I complain plenty about the way they handle subjective calls though, because that's a bigger problem imo. Offsides will take care of themselves in the long run.

As for the bold, you don't have to wait. We have examples from before. The below Salah onside call against City (last season, I think?) was handled in exactly the same way. The offside line was drawn, Salah is clearly onside, it would be pointless to draw any further lines so they don't. People had the same complaints then too.

Spoiler

Feck’s sake. I hate it when my irrational dislike for something is countered with logic and actual evidence.

 

[Mb194dc]

Well I cant post images but that is clearly photoshopped.

It most definitely is not, it's a print screen from the highlights...

Just after that frame the line is moved in line with the front of Sons foot.

I can PM it if you want to see for yourself.

 

[MikeeMike]

It most definitely is not, it's a print screen from the highlights...

Just after that frame the line is moved in line with the front of Sons foot.

I can PM it if you want to see for yourself.

So where are players shadows that are visible for all apart from the 3 in question.

 

[Mb194dc]

Actually just ran through checker and showed no manipulation. Was not saying you did this and I apologies as I impied this.
Just that the lines are all on a convenient marking with pitch “mowing” cut which seems suspicious. Coincidence I guess.

It's taken directly from video of the coverage of the game. Can't export it out of the video so I just print screened it instead.

Son is indeed onside, played on by VAR moving the line so he is... If the line is actually put inline with the Liverpool player he's off.

Hate to agree with Klopp but there you go

 

[cyberman]

It's taken directly from video of the coverage of the game. Can't export it out of the video so I just print screened it instead.

Son is indeed onside, played on by VAR moving the line so he is... If the line is actually put inline with the Liverpool player he's off.

Hate to agree with Klopp but there you go

You cant judge it by the angle, thats why lines and technology are needed.
Its an absurd angle to judge an offside.

 

[Mb194dc]

You cant judge it by the angle, thats why lines and technology are needed.
Its an absurd angle to judge an offside.

The lines on my picture are the official VAR technology lines from the game footage, they just move them around in the footage.

If they're actually lined up with the Liverpool defender, as they are in the frame I print screened, you can see Son is offside.

I would like to see consistently and fairly VAR'd and refereed games but all the major leagues seem incapable of it. Chelsea games been mainly ok this season, ... (Excluding the Maguire rugby tackle incident!). Obviously we had the Lo Celso stamp incident end of last season...

Not sure what more you can say, guess I'm pretty disappointed as thought VAR would actually make the game fairly refereed. But actually no point in having VAR and may as well remove it. Even the goal line technology hasn't worked 100%.

 

[cyberman]

The lines on my picture are the official VAR technology lines from the game footage, they just move them around in the footage.

If they're actually lined up with the Liverpool defender, as they are in the frame I print screened, you can see Son is offside.

I would like to see consistently and fairly VAR'd and refereed games but all the major leagues seem incapable of it. Chelsea games been mainly ok this season, ... (Excluding the Maguire rugby tackle incident!). Obviously we had the Lo Celso stamp incident end of last season...

Not sure what more you can say, guess I'm pretty disappointed as thought VAR would actually make the game fairly refereed. But actually no point in having VAR and may as well remove it. Even the goal line technology hasn't worked 100%.

But we cant see the frames they use. We just see what can be broadcast.

 

[sullydnl]

@Mb194dc

Below is the image they actually used:

Compare that to the image you posted and the point of the defender's leg the line is set at and you'll see the problem: the line in your image is running through the defenders leg. More specifically it runs through the bottom of the white part of his sock rather than at the end of his actual foot, as you see in the correct image.

Obviously Son will look offside in pictures where the line is in the wrong place. It's not a mystery.

 

[Yorkeontop]

I think VAR has taught me that fairer does not necessarily mean better.

 

[MikeeMike]

Do you work for the premier league or associated PR ?

Always defending these calls... Will be waiting to see other incidents like this where they just wave it on after 5 seconds this season.

Is there a written procedure somewhere for how calls are meant to be done by VAR? Explaining that they don't need to bother with two lines in some circumstances? Or is it just made up as they go along?

Having looked at it again, can see what the problem is. They calibrate the lines, showing he's off and then move the line so it's not touching the Liverpool player anymore to make him on?: If you take the video where it actually lines up with the Liverpool defender he's off.

Was this mage really shown on TV. I mean with pitch full of the lines ? I didn’t watch

 

[bleedred]

So sheffield's second goal is just going to be brushed under the carpet and we are just going to pretend it's ok just like the sevilla goal in EL, just because it doesn't come under the "VAR review category". Those decisions are more clearer/yes or no than the lines they draw for offsides.

If that had been the winning goal in a game, how is the game any fairer?

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

So sheffield's second goal is just going to be brushed under the carpet and we are just going to pretend it's ok just like the sevilla goal in EL, just because it doesn't come under the "VAR review category". Those decisions are more clearer/yes or no than the lines they draw for offsides.

If that had been the winning goal in a game, how is the game any fairer?

VAR can’t look at everything, and it’s not in the remit. Let’s be honest, it was such a small touch, it was barely noticeable from most angles.

I don’t think we can criticise the ref/ linesman on this one. It was wrong, but very very difficult to spot.

 

[bleedred]

VAR can’t look at everything, and it’s not in the remit. Let’s be honest, it was such a small touch, it was barely noticeable from most angles.

I don’t think we can criticise the ref/ linesman on this one. It was wrong, but very very difficult to spot.

So is every marginal offside call. Yet, those are seen as black and white. As I said in my previous post, Corner/GK/Throw in decisions are more easier than Offside/ penalty reviews and would take less time.

Of course VAR can look at everything, but they simply just chose to not review such cases, because they are considered to be not critical to the flow of the game. You cannot simple pick and choose what decisions you can review, it makes the process completely unfair. And these issues had been pointed out long before the implementation of VAR and yet not worthy enough to discuss or review.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

So is every marginal offside call. Yet, those are seen as black and white. As I said in my previous post, Corner/GK/Throw in decisions are more easier than Offside/ penalty reviews and would take less time.

Of course VAR can look at everything, but they simply just chose to not review such cases, because they are considered to be not critical to the flow of the game. You cannot simple pick and choose what decisions you can review, it makes the process completely unfair. And these issues had been pointed out long before the implementation of VAR and yet not worthy enough to discuss or review.

they can pick and choose, and they have done that. In this instance, it wasn’t simple, and would have taken multiple views to get to the correct decision. The implications of reviewing this sort of incident would mean more and more stoppages, and personally I don’t want that, even if it means sometimes decisions go against us.

we have to accept that there will always be some decisions that are made, that will be incorrect.

 

[MikeeMike]

It's taken directly from video of the coverage of the game. Can't export it out of the video so I just print screened it instead.

Son is indeed onside, played on by VAR moving the line so he is... If the line is actually put inline with the Liverpool player he's off.

Hate to agree with Klopp but there you go

Well I just watched highlights and VAR showed only one line and not the whole pitch . Decision aside I dont know what channel you watched on but wasn’t shown on mine. Your “screenshot” lines, if you zoom in, are actually pixels like a drawing package.
Just saying what I see

 

[giorno]

So sheffield's second goal is just going to be brushed under the carpet and we are just going to pretend it's ok just like the sevilla goal in EL, just because it doesn't come under the "VAR review category". Those decisions are more clearer/yes or no than the lines they draw for offsides.

If that had been the winning goal in a game, how is the game any fairer?

Uhm, what are you talking about here?

 

[bleedred]

Uhm, what are you talking about here?

It was a GK instead of a corner which technically is not considered "obvious" enough for VAR to overrule.

 

[Chipper]

Uhm, what are you talking about here?

They scored from a corner. A replay showed it came off their player and should have been a goal kick.

 

[NinjaFletch]

You don't need another line if you can see the attacker is onside from the defender's line though, as that's the offside line. A second line wouldn't mean anything, because we can already see where it would be drawn in relation to the first.

I think (though I may be wrong) that if Son was shown to be offside when the first line was drawn then they would draw the second for the sake of illustrating the offside. But when they can see he's onside straight away they don't want to delay for no reason.



Ha, no these aren't paid opinions, I just don't have a problem with this offside or VAR offsides generally really. I complain plenty about the way they handle subjective calls though, because that's a bigger problem imo. Offsides will take care of themselves in the long run.

As for the bold, you don't have to wait. We have examples from before. The below Salah onside call against City (last season, I think?) was handled in exactly the same way. The offside line was drawn, Salah is clearly onside, it would be pointless to draw any further lines so they don't. People had the same complaints then too.

Spoiler

The problem with this 'two planes' thing is I'm fairly certain that Son's foot is in the air. Had they whipped out the second way of doing it there is a fair possibility that it shows us something different. Even if it didn't, is it necessarily that time consuming to double check and be certain about the decision?

 

[bleedred]

they can pick and choose, and they have done that. In this instance, it wasn’t simple, and would have taken multiple views to get to the correct decision. The implications of reviewing this sort of incident would mean more and more stoppages, and personally I don’t want that, even if it means sometimes decisions go against us.

I am not saying its unfair just because it went against us. I am pretty sure such incidents would happen to other teams /leagues as well. I have been saying since the beginning of the VAR discussions, that teams will get shafted from such decisions where VAR doesn't get involved. They just go unaddressed.

Yes, you are right, it would lead to more and more stoppages, but selecting which decisions to review would/ is creating bias within the game.

Hypothetically, if there was marginal offside in our third goal, and VAR check ruled it out, then Sheffield get a big advantage, because VAR tech corrects refereeing error for one side, but not the other. At the end of the day, both are refereeing mistakes, "Obvious" or not. The fact that it didn't influence the result today shouldn't mean that such flaws within VAR usage should become acceptable.

we have to accept that there will always be some decisions that are made, that will be incorrect.

You mean just like pre-VAR?

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

I am not saying its unfair just because it went against us. I am pretty sure such incidents would happen to other teams /leagues as well. I have been saying since the beginning of the VAR discussions, that teams will get shafted from such decisions where VAR doesn't get involved. They just go unaddressed.

Yes, you are right, it would lead to more and more stoppages, but selecting which decisions to review would/ is creating bias within the game.

Hypothetically, if there was marginal offside in our third goal, and VAR check ruled it out, then Sheffield get a big advantage, because VAR tech corrects refereeing error for one side, but not the other. At the end of the day, both are refereeing mistakes, "Obvious" or not. The fact that it didn't influence the result today shouldn't mean that such flaws within VAR usage should become acceptable.



You mean just like pre-VAR?

there has to be a line drawn, and perhaps it’s arbitrary, and no doubt it will change as we get used to the technology - but there are practical limits in terms of what can and cannot be reviewed.

I do think however, that VAR has been pretty clear on what can be reviewed and what cannot, and so I don’t think it creates any bias, as each team is clear on what can and cannot be reviewed - now that the handball situation seems to have calmed down.

even with VAR, there are going to be mistakes. I don’t like it, and would prefer to go back to where we were, and accept human error as a factor, but that’s never going to happen. I probably disliked the backlash rule when that was
as well.

 

[padr81]

They can't win, they make a perfect decision on Son, in rapid time its too slow. They take their time get to the same conclusion and "its ruining the game with all these stoppages" Its pretty clearly onside when you see the line in relation to the liverpool players boot instead of the middle of his sock like the multi line one showed. Its close but its clearly the correct decision (or as clearly as current VAR technology can get currently).

"We want faster decisions!"
"Heres a clear and correct fast decision"
"We want slower decisions!".

 

[MikeeMike]

Uhm, what are you talking about here?

Agree. If VAR starts covering /reviewing throwins and / or corner kicks it will descend into chaos. It is already killing the enjoyment out of goal celebrations. After the Rashford goal last night we were all looking at the ref for a potential offside VAR review.
Great technology , poorly implemented and ruining the game. MOTD spends more time talking about miniscule decisions and managers moaning about “incorrect” offsides.

You cant un-invent this tech. but surely a better way to utilize. Maybe manager / team captain can “challenge a decison” aka flags in American Football. 3 challenges ? I dont know really.

Now linesmen dont even flag for a “close” offside and wait for outcome (goal). Then VAR. Again fans lose out both ways.

If decision times can be greatly reduced then this would maybe help.

 

[bleedred]

there has to be a line drawn, and perhaps it’s arbitrary, and no doubt it will change as we get used to the technology - but there are practical limits in terms of what can and cannot be reviewed.

I do think however, that VAR has been pretty clear on what can be reviewed and what cannot, and so I don’t think it creates any bias, as each team is clear on what can and cannot be reviewed - now that the handball situation seems to have calmed down.

even with VAR, there are going to be mistakes. I don’t like it, and would prefer to go back to where we were, and accept human error as a factor, but that’s never going to happen. I probably disliked the backlash rule when that was
as well.

That's exactly what it is. The current consideration is that all goals will be reviewed. Yet the definition of the "phase of play" before the goal has been arbitrary.

 

[MikeeMike]

there has to be a line drawn, and perhaps it’s arbitrary, and no doubt it will change as we get used to the technology - but there are practical limits in terms of what can and cannot be reviewed.

I do think however, that VAR has been pretty clear on what can be reviewed and what cannot, and so I don’t think it creates any bias, as each team is clear on what can and cannot be reviewed - now that the handball situation seems to have calmed down.

even with VAR, there are going to be mistakes. I don’t like it, and would prefer to go back to where we were, and accept human error as a factor, but that’s never going to happen. I probably disliked the backlash rule when that was
as well.

Logical comments. To add though. Managers and (some) players continously undermine VAR every game. Klopp for example, moaning about the offside but 2 weeks before his player was onside. There should be a level acceptance of VAR so all agree that VAR decision is like the old referee decisionn. Final.
A key game will come where VAR will be challenged in court and clubs will start legal precedings. Sad

 

[MikeKing]

That's exactly what it is. The current consideration is that all goals will be reviewed. Yet the definition of the "phase of play" before the goal has been arbitrary.

This is what I don't understand. I was of the understanding that wrongly given corners and set pieces that were part of the build up to a goal would be reviewed. Hasn't it been reviewed all season? All of a sudden it's a cut and dry, Var don't do that. I don't feel that is the case. I'd like to be proved wrong though but I seem to remember a few goals that has been disallowed because of missed fouls in the build up and wrongly given set pieces.

 

[bleedred]

This is what I don't understand. I was of the understanding that wrongly given corners and set pieces that were part of the build up to a goal would be reviewed. Hasn't it been reviewed all season? All of a sudden it's a cut and dry, Var don't do that. I don't feel that is the case. I'd like to be proved wrong though but I seem to remember a few goals that has been disallowed because of missed fouls in the build up and wrongly given set pieces.

Foul in the buildup, can be reviewed by VAR and overturned.

Wrongly given setpiece/throw ins, No . Unfortunately that has never been the case.

From the PL website.

The starting point for a phase of play that leads to a goal or penalty incident will be limited to the immediate phase and not necessarily go back to when the attacking team gained possession.

Other factors for consideration will be the ability of the defence to reset and the momentum of the attack

It will not review the decision to award a corner instead of a goal-kick, even if the corner produces a goal.

This is because the VAR will only check the attacking possession phase that led to the goal, and the starting point is limited to the immediate phase, in this instance the corner being taken.

In the scenario of a wrongly given corner/thrown in, the defence is reset, so VAR doesn't apply.

 

[Anustart89]

A challenge system would sort that out. If a team wants to risk wasting a precious challenge on a corner or a throw in then they can't complain if they're out of challenges when that handball is missed down the other end and isn't automatically reviewed by the VAR.

 

[MikeKing]

A challenge system would sort that out. If a team wants to risk wasting a precious challenge on a corner or a throw in then they can't complain if they're out of challenges when that handball is missed down the other end and isn't automatically reviewed by the VAR.

I've been saying this forever but all it takes is chips in their boots and the ball. They would be able to use a computer to monitor the game automatically and use the data registered there instantly to get the correct decisions. It would look something like FM. This will only work for offsides, corners etc, but with time they might even get to the point they can calculate the force used in tackles and touches to help determine foul or acting. It could act as a blueprint or foundation for creating consistency in what constitutes fouls and what does not. It could be used for many purposes depending on how the computer handles data and converts it to substantial information that can actually be used to create consistency in football.

The key thing with this idea is that the game would be analysed in real time with no delay and the ref could get a message on his watch before he even register his own opinion, then he makes the right call then and there.

For instance, the Sheffield goal wouldn't have happened because the 'real time simulation' of the game would have instantly registered that the ball left the foot of a Sheffield player before it went out and ref would have known it wasn't a corner.

The pitch doesn't move, only the players and the ball does so a real time simulation could accurately pin point the exact point the ball leaves someones foot, and if the player receiving the ball is ahead of the last defender for an offside. Just create the program, create the rules and frames for how you want it to operate and lets go. No more drama about stupid shit, lets enjoy a fair game of football.

 

[Oranges038]

Fiorentina match just now, the ref has awarded a penalty after 1 min 20 seconds.

On 6 mins actually confirms it after VAR reviews both by the Tv ref and then by himself on the pitchside monitor.

7 mins 20 seconds finally the penalty is taken and scored.

6 minutes from the initial award to scoring it. What is the point in it taking that long?

I still don't think it's a penalty.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Two absolutely nailed on penalties for Southampton v City. Looks like they didn’t even go to VAR?!? Absolute fecking shambles continues.

 

[giorno]

You got to see the penalty for atletico madrid

Also whatever the feck the ref saw in barcelona-valencia

Weird day