Refs & VAR 2020/2021 Discussion

[Eugenius]

What I find the worst is the completely inconsistent application of 'clear and obvious'.

In some occasions this seems purely a tool to remove culpability for a wrong decision, yet yesterday they spent about 2 minutes looking at 30 different angles of contact for alleged Fulham, which is normally a sign that there isn't a clear and obvious mistake.

 

[Denis' cuff]

Not a penalty my a**

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not one for soft pens but feck me, that is a stonewaller

tis true, that an iffy ref decision, pre-var would create far less controversy and we’d be able to celebrate goals without a fecking committee meeting beforehand. TV is largely to blame for the OTT (selective) coverage of incidents. Fills in gaps where there should be genuine discussion instead of sensationalism/controversy. Appalling lack of insight on TV. Watchin the derby with Jim Beglin and Peter Drury commentating. Beglin was ok but feck me, that boring cnut next to him constantly feeding us facts etc (where’s the vomit smiley?)

somebody mentioned kicking the ball away. I suppose most teams do it but City are the worlds worst for disruption, tactical fouling etc and routinely get away with it. To think Irwin was sent off for that, although it was a formidable combination of Elleray (Arsenal luvvie) and Anfield, of course.

 

[MikeeMike]

not one for soft pens but feck me, that is a stonewaller

tis true, that an iffy ref decision, pre-var would create far less controversy and we’d be able to celebrate goals without a fecking committee meeting beforehand. TV is largely to blame for the OTT (selective) coverage of incidents. Fills in gaps where there should be genuine discussion instead of sensationalism/controversy. Appalling lack of insight on TV. Watchin the derby with Jim Beglin and Peter Drury commentating. Beglin was ok but feck me, that boring cnut next to him constantly feeding us facts etc (where’s the vomit smiley?)

somebody mentioned kicking the ball away. I suppose most teams do it but City are the worlds worst for disruption, tactical fouling etc and routinely get away with it. To think Irwin was sent off for that, although it was a formidable combination of Elleray (Arsenal luvvie) and Anfield, of course.

Clear and obvious VAR mistake although I had took watch a few times. I was convinced that he had tipped the ball away but now see he knocked Fulham players foot onto the ball.

Having said that, Salah was fouled before Fulham goal so evened out.

 

[cyberman]

What I find the worst is the completely inconsistent application of 'clear and obvious'.

In some occasions this seems purely a tool to remove culpability for a wrong decision, yet yesterday they spent about 2 minutes looking at 30 different angles of contact for alleged Fulham, which is normally a sign that there isn't a clear and obvious mistake.

Clear and obvious is less important when its the ref asked to look at his own decision

 

[Hughie77]

What I find the worst is the completely inconsistent application of 'clear and obvious'.

In some occasions this seems purely a tool to remove culpability for a wrong decision, yet yesterday they spent about 2 minutes looking at 30 different angles of contact for alleged Fulham, which is normally a sign that there isn't a clear and obvious mistake.

Agree think they looked at it 20 times, if it takes that long it's not clear and obvious. Thought the ref in Fulham v pool did good job, Salah tried to get free kick from a slight touch exaggerated it ref just played on goal comes from it
Some players dont help either as they know goals get reviews, so anything they can do on build up for Doubt they will do it.

 

[SadlerMUFC]

Agree think they looked at it 20 times, if it takes that long it's not clear and obvious. Thought the ref in Fulham v pool did good job, Salah tried to get free kick from a slight touch exaggerated it ref just played on goal comes from it
Some players dont help either as they know goals get reviews, so anything they can do on build up for Doubt they will do it.

Yes, they looked at it 20 times but that doesn't mean it wasn't "clear and obvious". The only clear and obvious mistake was feeling the need to look at the replay more than twice. Blatant penalty and I'm still having trouble figuring out why it wasn't called???

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

Clear and obvious VAR mistake although I had took watch a few times. I was convinced that he had tipped the ball away but now see he knocked Fulham players foot onto the ball.

Having said that, Salah was fouled before Fulham goal so evened out.

Nah, some contact (it's a contact sport) and replays show that after contact, there's a pause then he jumps up and flails his arms about. Lucky not to get booked for simulation.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

Yes, they looked at it 20 times but that doesn't mean it wasn't "clear and obvious". The only clear and obvious mistake was feeling the need to look at the replay more than twice. Blatant penalty and I'm still having trouble figuring out why it wasn't called???

I think Chapman on MOTD said only 2nd time a ref has stuck with decision. Hope the refs association ask him to explain it

 

[SadlerMUFC]

I think Chapman on MOTD said only 2nd time a ref has stuck with decision. Hope the refs association ask him to explain it

When I see stuff like this I try and find an argument for why the ref called what he did. Often I can find a reason that I may not agree with, but if an argument can be made, then it can't be the wrong decision. I understand why it wasn't called in real time, but for the life of me I can't come up with a single logical reason as to why a penalty wasn't given here. You can clearly see the players foot get taken out. Blatant penalty and shocking decision not to call it...

 

[SadlerMUFC]

Elneny on Tarkowski video

I honestly have no idea whatsoever how Graham Scott goes over to the monitor and reckons that's a yellow card.

Compare it to what Martial got sent off for against Tottenham, christ.

Nah...it's a push. The pic above is so misleading. The video shows just a push that happens to get him high but the player makes a meal of it. Yellow card is the right call. Difference for Martial was he intentionally gave a little slap. Wasn't something you could "hide" as accidental high contact like this video can...

 

[lex talionis]

VAR is improving but last weekend was a step back or two. Elneny definitely should have been sent...perhaps there is an unwritten mercy rule referees are instructed to adhere to. There were other miscues. But we're miles ahead of where we've been in the past, so no complaints.

 

[UncleBob]

Nah...it's a push. The pic above is so misleading. The video shows just a push that happens to get him high but the player makes a meal of it. Yellow card is the right call. Difference for Martial was he intentionally gave a little slap. Wasn't something you could "hide" as accidental high contact like this video can...

Just happens to get him high The video isn't misleading, Elneny has his fecking hand on the guys chin, it's far more than just a push.

 

[SadlerMUFC]

Just happens to get him high The video isn't misleading, Elneny has his fecking hand on the guys chin, it's far more than just a push.

Give your head a shake. It's a high push and the guy drops like he's been shot. It's the kind of thing where a guy sometimes retaliates and then he gets sent off. I completely see why the ref didn't give a red for that one. Mind you, I would also understand why another ref might give a red. So in such an interpretation game, either call can be correct...

 

[90 + 5min]

We can easly say that Liverpool and Klopp never ever should talk about injustice when it comes to VAR. Last season they gained so many points by it and now they are doing it again.

 

[Hughie77]

Yes, they looked at it 20 times but that doesn't mean it wasn't "clear and obvious". The only clear and obvious mistake was feeling the need to look at the replay more than twice. Blatant penalty and I'm still having trouble figuring out why it wasn't called???

Yes, it could have from one angle from another looks like he gets ball first. I watched it again this morning, and it could well have been a pen.
This is the issue with VAR.

 

[Hughie77]

We can easly say that Liverpool and Klopp never ever should talk about injustice when it comes to VAR. Last season they gained so many points by it and now they are doing it again.

They got the rub of the green on fair few VAR last season. My nephew was calling them livVARpool. Henderson had a coan about it Milner has, didn't hear them last season griping about it.

 

[Withnail]

Yes, it could have from one angle from another looks like he gets ball first. I watched it again this morning, and it could well have been a pen.
This is the issue with VAR.

If they don't use VAR for scenarios like this then the ref is basically guessing and in this case he was wrong. The one angle shows that he kicked the foot, in the other angles it isn't possible to determine that that's what occurred. It doesn't mean the conclusions drawn from different angles are equally valid.

I've just watched MOTD2 and Jenas said he didn't think Fabinho got the ball but he doesn't want the game examined forensically like that.

So we'll just go with the potentially wrong on-field decision then?

 

[Hughie77]

If they don't use VAR for scenarios like this then the ref is basically guessing and in this case he was wrong. The one angle shows that he kicked the foot, in the other angles it isn't possible to determine that that's what occurred. It doesn't mean the conclusions drawn from different angles are equally valid.

I've just watched MOTD2 and Jenas said he didn't think Fabinho got the ball but he doesn't want the game examined forensically like that.

So we'll just go with the potentially wrong on-field decision then?

Yes by what happened, VAR is being used but its still subjective just like a normal ref with out VAR. This is the issue again if it's a subjective call then why have it at all. Confused as you but its here to stay.

 

[Withnail]

Yes by what happened, VAR is being used but its still subjective just like a normal ref with out VAR. This is the issue again if it's a subjective call then why have it at all. Confused as you but its here to stay.

I don't think it is subjective in the majority of cases but in this one it was difficult to determine what occurred and the ref went with his on field decision.

They are getting more right than wrong and we are certainly getting more correct decisions than without VAR.

One angle shows you something you that wasn't apparent from the other angle.

The fact that you couldn't see the contact from one angle doesn't mean it didn't happen.

 

[HackeyC]

Anyone who has ever played football recognised it was a penalty. Contact under momentum. Clear on the replay to everyone but the ref. No excuses for him i'm afraid.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

So. The Son goal vs Liverpool. Kane looked to be offside. He didn’t touch the ball but he blatantly affected the keeper’s positioning and decisions, allowing Son to score on the near post. Surely the only way he could claim to be not involved there was if he turned around and walked away from the action?

 

[HackeyC]

So. The Son goal vs Liverpool. Kane looked to be offside. He didn’t touch the ball but he blatantly affected the keeper’s positioning and decisions, allowing Son to score on the near post. Surely the only way he could claim to be not involved there was if he turned around and walked away from the action?

Kane wasn't the active player in the initial phase and wasn't in the keepers line for the shot so fine to me.

 

[limerickcitykid]

So. The Son goal vs Liverpool. Kane looked to be offside. He didn’t touch the ball but he blatantly affected the keeper’s positioning and decisions, allowing Son to score on the near post. Surely the only way he could claim to be not involved there was if he turned around and walked away from the action?

Not even close to how offside works.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Not even close to how offside works.

I understand how offside works, thanks. Care to address my point?

 

[NinjaFletch]

So. The Son goal vs Liverpool. Kane looked to be offside. He didn’t touch the ball but he blatantly affected the keeper’s positioning and decisions, allowing Son to score on the near post. Surely the only way he could claim to be not involved there was if he turned around and walked away from the action?

Not how the law works. He would have to have been directly stopping Alisson from seeing it to be considered interfering. You're right it's a bit of a nonsense, because his position on the pitch does have an influence on the players, but it's not a valid reason to flag someone offside.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Kane wasn't the active player in the initial phase and wasn't in the keepers line for the shot so fine to me.

He was active at the moment Son shot. Allison had to take him into account when getting set to make a save. An inactive player shouldn’t be influencing the keeper like that.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Not how the law works. He would have to have been directly stopping Alisson from seeing it to be considered interfering. You're right it's a bit of a nonsense, because his position on the pitch does have an influence on the players, but it's not a valid reason to flag someone offside.

Some players - who know they’ve been caught offside - put their hands up and walk away. That’s how to remove yourself from the offside equation. If you do what Kane did you should give up the right to claim you’re not actively involved.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

He was active at the moment Son shot. Allison had to take him into account when getting set to make a save. An inactive player shouldn’t be influencing the keeper like that.

Aye. He wasn’t offside by the rules.

But the rules on offside are now a crock of shit.

Games gone etc.

 

[NinjaFletch]

Some players - who know they’ve been caught offside - put their hands up and walk away. That’s how to remove yourself from the offside equation. If you do what Kane did you should give up the right to claim you’re not actively involved.

I completely take your point, and can understand why you're arguing it should be considered interfering, but it isn't under the laws as they stand or how they're interpreted by refs. There's a much higher bar to be cleared to be considered interfering and Kane hasn't come close to reaching it, which is why it didn't get even a second look from VAR.

 

[Sandikan]

I understand how offside works, thanks. Care to address my point?

If Kane had been blocking the keeper's view maybe.
But you can't give offside for someone 15 yards away who is never getting the ball.

 

[Mb194dc]

Son was offside for goal yesterday. Var didn't follow procedure to check it properly and just passed it as a goal after a few seconds... Presumably because it's Spurs, like the Lo Celso and many other incidents they have different rules for the moment? Not that it mattered finally.

https://www.givemesport.com/1628583...ffside-decision-in-heungmin-sons-anfield-goal

 

[Dorkstorm]

Son was offside for goal yesterday. Var didn't follow procedure to check it properly and just passed it as a goal after a few seconds... Presumably because it's Spurs, like the Lo Celso and many other incidents they have different rules for the moment? Not that it mattered finally.

https://www.givemesport.com/1628583...ffside-decision-in-heungmin-sons-anfield-goal

The call went against the team I support, but I'm all for them making calls like that in the future.

Dont take 5 minutes to analyze wether someone is offside by 1mm or not (since, even if the software is 100% accurate, the person drawing the lines and choosing which frame to use isn't). The call was super close, Could have gone either way, depending on what frame is used, so give the attacker the benefit of the doubt..

 

[Eugenius]

Son was offside for goal yesterday. Var didn't follow procedure to check it properly and just passed it as a goal after a few seconds... Presumably because it's Spurs, like the Lo Celso and many other incidents they have different rules for the moment? Not that it mattered finally.

https://www.givemesport.com/1628583...ffside-decision-in-heungmin-sons-anfield-goal

It looked pretty lazy to me given how tight it was and the general zeal they approach offside with. They didn't seem to look at different frames or check the angle of the line was right, and nor did they really seem to check if Son was actually offside against that.

 

[cyberman]

Son was offside for goal yesterday. Var didn't follow procedure to check it properly and just passed it as a goal after a few seconds... Presumably because it's Spurs, like the Lo Celso and many other incidents they have different rules for the moment? Not that it mattered finally.

https://www.givemesport.com/1628583...ffside-decision-in-heungmin-sons-anfield-goal

They did the lines. You could see them on the screen

 

[Chipper]

Son was offside for goal yesterday. Var didn't follow procedure to check it properly and just passed it as a goal after a few seconds... Presumably because it's Spurs, like the Lo Celso and many other incidents they have different rules for the moment? Not that it mattered finally.

https://www.givemesport.com/1628583...ffside-decision-in-heungmin-sons-anfield-goal

I don't understand that claim. There's a tweet there that says " Notice how the line does not touch ANY Liverpool defenders. Son is pretty clearly offside. "

Then the picture they posted shows the black or dark blue line touching the Liverpool defender and not Son so it's onside.

 

[Gio]

It looked pretty lazy to me given how tight it was and the general zeal they approach offside with. They didn't seem to look at different frames or check the angle of the line was right, and nor did they really seem to check if Son was actually offside against that.

It was quite refreshing from an entertainment perspective.

 

[Cassidy]

I thought it was weird they didn't seem to draw the 2 lines they usually draw and the decision was pretty quick, was tight though not sure if it was on or off

 

[Mb194dc]

I would be happy if VAR did all offside decisions like this to try and and allow more goals, they don't though....

Compare yesterday to the Bamford offside review for example or numerous other ones this season where they've spend minutes to get the call correct.

It makes a totally mockery of a fair competition and for me it totally ruins the sport when the rules aren't applied the same in every match.

 

[VP89]

It's clear that on pitchside, the referee does not get a view of all angles. It looked like he was viewing a favourable angle for Fabinho vs Fulham, and Rodgers touched on it himself after Leicester's game to Everton: https://www.skysports.com/football/...eicester-penalty-overturned-in-everton-defeat

Why they do this, I honestly don't know. The Premier League are just a joke on the matter.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I thought it was weird they didn't seem to draw the 2 lines they usually draw and the decision was pretty quick, was tight though not sure if it was on or off

Yeah, that was bizarre. And will be fecking infuriating if they stop the game for several minutes and draw blue/red lines to disallow a United goal tonight. If I was a Liverpool fan I’d be seething after being the wrong end of at least one incredibly prolonged VAR offside already this season.