Refs & VAR 2020/2021 Discussion

city-puma

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Lindelof is so soft! I get it that he was bullied by a more physically stronger opponent.
But he at least should make the complaint as strong as possible that he was fouled! With DDG in several other days, such as Sheffield United game, our players look like white bunnies when fouled in critical moments. We need to make referee to check VAR at least. So pathetic.
 

El Zoido

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That really shows up how poor VAR can be. Shockkng decision.
I hate to “go there” but there’s zero chance this goal would have stood had we scored it.
 

Sandikan

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Clearly a massive miss from the VAR gang, but it did happen 90seconds in, so we can hardly claim it ruined the game.
We were 1-1 with a full second half to do something.
 

Abhinav

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Clearly a massive miss from the VAR gang, but it did happen 90seconds in, so we can hardly claim it ruined the game.
We were 1-1 with a full second half to do something.
Thats no excuse. We can start going into matches with a one goal handicap then every match. We will have 90 minutes to overturn the deficit. Twice in a space of two weeks, there is no excuse with Var.
 

Abhinav

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I hate to “go there” but there’s zero chance this goal would have stood had we scored it.
The attacker basically elbows Lindelof on the back of his head then proceeds to cover his eyes as the ball is in the air. I mean there can’t be a clearer foul.
 

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Clearly a massive miss from the VAR gang, but it did happen 90seconds in, so we can hardly claim it ruined the game.
We were 1-1 with a full second half to do something.
What has that got to to with VAR? It’s ok to feck up decisions against a team that should be good enough to win with a handicap of a goal from the start? Then why haven’t City started a goal down every game in 2021?

It’s a flood of terrible decisions lately, and what’s worse, VAR seems to make decisions worse, not better, with the added drawback of taking more time, affecting the game and making the errors much more incomprehensible.

Today VAR twice made blatant errors against their pretty simple rule book. If Dawson had been let alone, he’d have had a weak but acceptable game where dubious and wrong decisions added up to 2-1 to the right team. VAR has two situations to look at, messes up both and one team ends up two goals shorter because of it.
 

Sandikan

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What has that got to to with VAR? It’s ok to feck up decisions against a team that should be good enough to win with a handicap of a goal from the start? Then why haven’t City started a goal down every game in 2021?

It’s a flood of terrible decisions lately, and what’s worse, VAR seems to make decisions worse, not better, with the added drawback of taking more time, affecting the game and making the errors much more incomprehensible.

Today VAR twice made blatant errors against their pretty simple rule book. If Dawson had been let alone, he’d have had a weak but acceptable game where dubious and wrong decisions added up to 2-1 to the right team. VAR has two situations to look at, messes up both and one team ends up two goals shorter because of it.
Just saying this wasn't why we didn't win today. But I accept it's on the VAR thread, not the 100 threads whinging about the performance, so take your point.
 

Harry190

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Lindelof is so soft! I get it that he was bullied by a more physically stronger opponent.
But he at least should make the complaint as strong as possible that he was fouled! With DDG in several other days, such as Sheffield United game, our players look like white bunnies when fouled in critical moments. We need to make referee to check VAR at least. So pathetic.
Maybe they're not showing images of the players complaining to the ref.
 

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I defy anyone to look closely at the replays shown on TV and be 100% confident that Maguire wasn’t tripped.
He wasn't intentionally tripped, but there was obviously a tangle of legs.

It's one of those where I think if the ref gives nothing then no one cares, but since he's given it, it's weird that VAR would overrule it... Then again I was surprised VAR overturned the WBA pen earlier in the season at OT, so what comes around etc.
 

Pogue Mahone

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He wasn't intentionally tripped, but there was obviously a tangle of legs.

It's one of those where I think if the ref gives nothing then no one cares, but since he's given it, it's weird that VAR would overrule it... Then again I was surprised VAR overturned the WBA pen earlier in the season at OT, so what comes around etc.
Well exactly. It’s an inconsistent shambles.
 

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Lindelof is so soft! I get it that he was bullied by a more physically stronger opponent.
But he at least should make the complaint as strong as possible that he was fouled! With DDG in several other days, such as Sheffield United game, our players look like white bunnies when fouled in critical moments. We need to make referee to check VAR at least. So pathetic.
He should have been on the floor claiming acting like he's blind... Then got in the refs with one eye closed saying he's been the victim of GBH.

I know people say it's gamesmanship or whatever, but it's football, trying to pressure the ref is part of the job.
 

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Well exactly. It’s an inconsistent shambles.
The biggest thing for me is its just totally arbitrary when a ref will get sent to a monitor and when they won't. It was meant to happen more often this season, but there's still no consistency to it... And it very rarely happens for the review of actual goals, which is incredibly bizarre as you'd think valid/invalid "goals" would be high on the ref importance list.

How many times in our games has a ref gone to a monitor? Maybe 3 or 4 times in 20 odd games? Doesn't seem right

Edit - just saw your post saying above saying this exact same thing :lol:
 

Norman Brownbutter

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Do any VAR fans know why refs go to the sideline in some situations but not others? Why was he forced to second guess his penalty decision with the whole world watching but a blatant foul leading to a goal never got a second glance?
Presumably, the idea would be to use the monitors when its not "clear and obvious". But since the PL says that its only "clear and obvious" errors that are looked at, I cant think of an answer. The documentary "man in the middle" had one ref say it was to present evidence. The ref went on to say he knew even before going over that he would be overturning his decision because theres no other reason to be called over.
 

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Lindelof is so soft! I get it that he was bullied by a more physically stronger opponent.
But he at least should make the complaint as strong as possible that he was fouled! With DDG in several other days, such as Sheffield United game, our players look like white bunnies when fouled in critical moments. We need to make referee to check VAR at least. So pathetic.
I agree.
 

Pogue Mahone

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The biggest thing for me is its just totally arbitrary when a ref will get sent to a monitor and when they won't. It was meant to happen more often this season, but there's still no consistency to it... And it very rarely happens for the review of actual goals, which is incredibly bizarre as you'd think valid/invalid "goals" would be high on the ref importance list.

How many times in our games has a ref gone to a monitor? Maybe 3 or 4 times in 20 odd games? Doesn't seem right
It’s absolutely maddening. And the poxy thing is getting a free pass this season for sucking the joy out of so many exciting moments because there’s no fans at games. We’re supposed to tolerate this massive downside in return for an end to all the frustration of big decisions which are obviously wrong after watching a replay but it’s not even come close to achieving that goal. If anything, it’s created more frustration because the errors are so impossible to understand and the technology is so inconsistently applied.
 

darko

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Do any VAR fans know why refs go to the sideline in some situations but not others? Why was he forced to second guess his penalty decision with the whole world watching but a blatant foul leading to a goal never got a second glance?
Maybe the VAR official will rule on a clear and obvious error but if it's not clear and obvious enough, they'll let the match ref decide.
 

sullydnl

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Do any VAR fans know why refs go to the sideline in some situations but not others? Why was he forced to second guess his penalty decision with the whole world watching but a blatant foul leading to a goal never got a second glance?
There are problems with VAR in all leagues but monitor use in the PL is a good example of how they in particular have botched its introduction, despite having the advantage of seeing what hadn't worked in other leagues.

When they first introduced VAR the PL decided they didn't want to use the monitors as they thought they would waste too much time. Other leagues had tried the same approach before eventually switching when it turned out that using the monitors worked better but for some reason the PL thought it would be different for them. So even though the monitors were in place at all the grounds, even though IFAB protocol was to use them when required and even though other leagues were using them, the PL didn't.

This was coupled with an unusual (i.e. stupid) "light touch" policy on subjective calls generally. For example not one penalty was awarded by VAR in the first 90 games of last season, as opposed to the Bundesliga, in which 12 penalties were awarded in the first 72 games. So the PL would have had you believe that in 90 games their referees didn't get a single penalty call wrong.

This all being very stupid, they were told they had to get in line with everyone else's use of VAR and both use the monitors and actually intervene in some penalty decisions. But they were still doing so extremely reluctantly, only using them as a confirmatory process for a few red cards, so the monitors were still in fact completely pointless.

Then this season FIFA took over the VAR project globally, so the PL had to agree to get in line with official protocol, which in theory meant that if the VAR thought a subjective call was wrong then the ref would take a look at it on the monitor, as in other leagues.

But of course the bar for what VAR are told to consider "wrong" is still erratic as hell in the PL, more so than in other leagues. Stats back this up too. In the Bundesliga the VAR intervenes 0.23 times per games, holding steady at around that rate throughout the season. But in the PL we saw VAR interventions switch from 0.5 per game up to December 26th to 0.11 per game up until the start of February. Thus making this the second season in a row in which things that were penalties in one half of the season weren't in the other half.

All of which means that because the PL keep arbitrarily raising and lowering the bar for what counts as a mistake, the bar for what should and shouldn't go to the monitor also jumps up and down at different points of the season. And that inevitably leads to muddled decisions in games, because how the hell are the refs and VAR supposed to keep track of what types of fouls are or aren't "wrong enough" when it changes every few months?

It also therefore depends hugely on what the ref initially saw. Imagine a scenario where a striker is running into the box, the defender makes contact, the striker goes down. If the ref says "there was no contact" then that could be considered a clear error because the ref is factually wrong, so he could be referred to the monitor. Whereas if he says "there was slight contact but not enough to be a penalty" then that might not be considered a clear enough error, so it wouldn't get referred to the monitor. The exact same incident with two different outcomes based on what the ref happens to think happened, not what actually happened. And unlike in rugby, we don't get to hear what the ref thinks happened either.
 
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A-man

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The problem with VAR in the PL use to be that they over ruled every second goal after 4 minutes check, checked every offside, it simply took too long even if they got it right. Now I feel it’s the opposite. 3 seconds of a zoomed in view of WBA’s goal and anybody could have seen that this at least was worth looking at more closely.

I guess if its Klopp,Pep etc they coach their players to go over in a heap. We are punished for not cheating or complaining to the refs.
Lindelof is so soft! I get it that he was bullied by a more physically stronger opponent.
But he at least should make the complaint as strong as possible that he was fouled! With DDG in several other days, such as Sheffield United game, our players look like white bunnies when fouled in critical moments. We need to make referee to check VAR at least. So pathetic.
I’ve always hated it when a Pep team surrounded the ref but were not talking about a free kick or throw in here. In a situation like this the whole team should be all over the ref.
 
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sullydnl

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This is an utterly ridiculous rule
I dunno. I think the rule makes some sense in that if someone nowhere near the ball happens to be in an offside position then fouling them should probably still be punishable? Otherwise a defender could cynically drag down an attacker who has drifted offside, knowing that while they aren't yet challenging for the ball it may prevent them from getting into a position to challenge for the ball in an onside position later in the move.

The problem here is that any fair-minded person would say that Maguire was in fact already challenging for the ball given that was literally the reason he was lined up in that position in the first place.
 

arnie_ni

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I dunno. I think the rule makes some sense in that if someone nowhere near the ball happens to be in an offside position then fouling them should probably still be punishable? Otherwise a defender could cynically drag down an attacker who has drifted offside, knowing that while they aren't yet challenging for the ball it may prevent them from getting into a position to challenge for the ball in an onside position later in the move.

The problem here is that any fair-minded person would say that Maguire was in fact already challenging for the ball given that was literally the reason he was lined up in that position in the first place.
But the second he moves towards the ball he's active and should be given offside. But this rule says otherwise. Doesn't it counteract the general offside rule?
 

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There are problems with VAR in all leagues but monitor use in the PL is a good example of how they in particular have botched its introduction, despite having the advantage of seeing what hadn't worked in other leagues.

When they first introduced VAR the PL decided they didn't want to use the monitors as they thought they would waste too much time. Other leagues had tried the same approach before eventually switching when it turned out that using the monitors worked better but for some reason the PL thought it would be different for them. So even though the monitors were in place at all the grounds, even though IFAB protocol was to use them when required and even though other leagues were using them, the PL didn't.

This was coupled with an unusual (i.e. stupid) "light touch" policy on subjective calls generally. For example not one penalty was awarded by VAR in the first 90 games of last season, as opposed to the Bundesliga, in which 12 penalties were awarded in the first 72 games. So the PL would have had you believe that in 90 games their referees didn't get a single penalty call wrong.

This all being very stupid, they were told they had to get in line with everyone else's use of VAR and both use the monitors and actually intervene in some penalty decisions. But they were still doing so extremely reluctantly, only using them as a confirmatory process for a few red cards, so the monitors were still in fact completely pointless.

Then this season FIFA took over the VAR project globally, so the PL had to agree to get in line with official protocol, which in theory meant that if the VAR thought a subjective call was wrong then the ref would take a look at it on the monitor, as in other leagues.

But of course the bar for what VAR are told to consider "wrong" is still erratic as hell in the PL, more so than in other leagues. Stats back this up too. In the Bundesliga the VAR intervenes 0.23 times per games, holding steady at around that rate throughout the season. But in the PL we saw VAR interventions switch from 0.5 per game up to December 26th to 0.11 per game up until the start of February. Thus making this the second season in a row in which things that were penalties in one half of the season weren't in the other half.

All of which means that because the PL keep arbitrarily raising and lowering the bar for what counts as a mistake, the bar for what should and shouldn't go to the monitor also jumps up and down at different points of the season. And that inevitably leads to muddled decisions in games, because how the hell are the refs and VAR supposed to keep track of what types of fouls are or aren't "wrong enough" when it changes every few months?

It also therefore depends hugely on what the ref initially saw. Imagine a scenario where a striker is running into the box, the defender makes contact, the striker goes down. If the ref says "there was no contact" then that could be considered a clear error because the ref is factually wrong, so he could be referred to the monitor. Whereas if he says "there was slight contact but not enough to be a penalty" then that might not be considered a clear enough error, so it wouldn't get referred to the monitor. The exact same incident with two different outcomes based on what the ref happens to think happened, not what actually happened. And unlike in rugby, we don't get to hear what the ref thinks happened either.
Ok, cool. Thanks for detailed response. Basically confirms how this all feels intuitively. A mess.
 

Karel Podolsky

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I dunno. I think the rule makes some sense in that if someone nowhere near the ball happens to be in an offside position then fouling them should probably still be punishable? Otherwise a defender could cynically drag down an attacker who has drifted offside, knowing that while they aren't yet challenging for the ball it may prevent them from getting into a position to challenge for the ball in an onside position later in the move.

The problem here is that any fair-minded person would say that Maguire was in fact already challenging for the ball given that was literally the reason he was lined up in that position in the first place.
Similar case to Rodri offside against Villa?
 

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The level of officiating in the Prem is abysmal. They should have to provide a report or something after stating why they made a decision, because it’s absolutely not clear anymore. You can see it across the fans and pundits, nobody has a clue what is happening, what is/isn’t a foul.

What really made me not know what the heck is going on is the pen in the city match yesterday. At half they were talking to former official Dermot Gallagher and ask him about Gundogan stepping on Hojberg first. His response was that contact is a part of football and that was not enough contact, but when Hojberg drags his foot and hits Gundogan’s that is enough contact. Like what? Getting studs down your achilles that would make you trip thus making contact with an attacker, Is not enough contact. However, an attacker that has already miscontrolled the ball and taken an awkward step to the side getting his foot hit from the player that was just ”fouled”, is enough contact.

They just make stuff up to cover their tracks. It’s unacceptable but the protection of this ineptness has been going on for some timE. I’ve been calling out the officiating for years, not just in United matches across the league.
 

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The fact that a referee can sit in a VAR room with only one job, and that is to check and double check three to four situations in a 90 minute football game, and still manage to conclude that the shove in De Gea’s back and the elbow in the neck and hand over the eyes (!) of Lindelöf is in any way or form legal ways of obstructing a player, it does more damage to my trust in referees than thirty years of somewhat wrong offside calls ever did.
 

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The fact that a referee can sit in a VAR room with only one job, and that is to check and double check three to four situations in a 90 minute football game, and still manage to conclude that the shove in De Gea’s back and the elbow in the neck and hand over the eyes (!) of Lindelöf is in any way or form legal ways of obstructing a player, it does more damage to my trust in referees than thirty years of somewhat wrong offside calls ever did.
This is exactly how I feel. Before VAR, you could say that maybe the ref didn’t see the incident well. Things occur quickly and while running their may be a chance to miss a call.

The problem I have now is that we see very similar Incidents and they are called differently. And very blatant offenses do not go punished. It just shows how poor the level is at the Moment.
 

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VAR apparently is a good thing to have in our era.
the problem is the implementation of it in EPL, especially the real persons behind the screens. How many are deployed? Do they take it seriously? Do they have different focus during a game, some focus on the development of the game play overall and how things are changing, and the other emphasize on the critical moment and look through different angles?
I think it needs at least a three-man team to handle things well.
 

RashfordisRed

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I think in Maguire's interview with MUTV he referred to decisions consistently going against us since Klopp and Jose had their say about us. In all fairness, fair play to him because its a valid point.

In the past few weeks, the 2 decisions against Sheff Utd and the 2 yesterday have really showed a lack of consistency and cost us. In the same period VAR ruled for City against Villa and their pen vs Spurs.

I understand what they are trying to achieve with clear and obvious but a complete lack of consistency.
If you are going to say the striker on Lindelof is marginal so stay with the on field decision, the same should apply for Maguire's penalty shout.
Ultimately the clear and obvious point is in fact unfair because in the same game, the same event could have 2 different outcomes.

Aside from that, I really think football needs to shift to a stop the clock system - against Everton 1 stoppage in ET and the ref decides to keep playing. Yesterday on HT, decides to blow with playing 4 seconds extra after 3 corners within the added time.

I agree our performances do not merit us being top however if decisions were being called correctly we would be in a title challenge, at least within 5points. At the moment it feels like we are playing against 12 and people can say all they want that we had time to still change the game vs both Sheff Utd and WBA but sometimes you need the margins to go for you to compete where we want to, its always been the case.

I guess the challenge is now for the team to try and not let it affect them and pick themselves up.
 

Berbasbullet

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The fact that a referee can sit in a VAR room with only one job, and that is to check and double check three to four situations in a 90 minute football game, and still manage to conclude that the shove in De Gea’s back and the elbow in the neck and hand over the eyes (!) of Lindelöf is in any way or form legal ways of obstructing a player, it does more damage to my trust in referees than thirty years of somewhat wrong offside calls ever did.
Completely agree.

The way I see it is, if a ref gets a wrong decision against united let’s be real there’s no accountability and no uproar. The media really won’t care and will turn a blind eye to it, or the narrative is that the decision is correct or the refs equalling things out.
 
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Red & White

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We’ve been poor, form wise, but the officiating and VAR have been a disgrace in some of our recent games.

I get Lindelof isn’t very popular on here but that is 100% a foul. It’s not even a discussion. Talking about him needing to be stronger isn’t even relevant to this situation. That’s a seperate conversation.

The penalty was a slight tangling of legs, so it’s a penalty. Yes, it may be harsh but it’s a penalty. The ref was in a good position and gave it. It what way is that a ‘clear and obvious’ error in which VAR needs to get involved with? That’s Jon Moss not wanting us to have a penalty. The offside wasn’t relevant, as revealed since. The review specifically said no foul and wasn’t connected to any possible offside decision.

These margins can have a huge impact on the outcome of games. They had something to hold onto from the second minute. We’re out of form and spent the whole game chasing an equaliser. That foul gets given at the start as it should and we more than likely run out winners in that game. As usual, there’s zero accountability for these decisions and we can do nothing about it but have a whinge on a forum. I know we aren’t playing well but that doesn’t mean poor decisions aren’t worth a discussion.
 
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Edit:


Basically the offside offence only occurs when Maguire gets involved in play, so if the foul was deemed to occur before he had tried to play or challenge for the ball then it would be a penalty. Pretty damn subjective at what point he's challenging for the ball though.
To make things more confusing, Dermot Gallagher reckons it was offside

https://www.skysports.com/watch/vid...8903/ref-watch-var-overlooked-maguire-offside

So basically if the refs don't know the rules, then how should anyone else?

IFAB are pretty clear:


SO if that's the rule, but then you have refs (former, but still, it's his job to stay up on the rules) thinking it is offside... then what the feck?

To a layman like me, it feels like it absolutely should be offside as soon as Maguire moves towards the ball, as that's the only reason the foul is occurring.

Be interested to see what Dale says later.
 

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To make things more confusing, Dermot Gallagher reckons it was offside

https://www.skysports.com/watch/vid...8903/ref-watch-var-overlooked-maguire-offside

So basically if the refs don't know the rules, then how should anyone else?

IFAB are pretty clear:


SO if that's the rule, but then you have refs (former, but still, it's his job to stay up on the rules) thinking it is offside... then what the feck?

To a layman like me, it feels like it absolutely should be offside as soon as Maguire moves towards the ball, as that's the only reason the foul is occurring.

Be interested to see what Dale says later.
If you read under it says:

Being in an offside position is NOT an offence until the player impacts on an opponent
Maguire is wrong side of the defender, so immediately impacts on the opponent.

Defender can't know about the offside and is also trying to move towards the ball. But is impacted by Maguire in the offside position.