Revelations is such a hard chapter to decipher though. For a long time, euro skeptics have used verses to fight against European Union.
Religion Discussion | Read the OP before posting
- Thread starter Raoul
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Apologies. I was being facetious. Haven't we had world wide coronavirus before?
What positive effects has he seen? Ibn al qayyim had said the benefits of honey on an empty stomach are immense.
NP.Not like this one.
I wouldn't know although he's of the opinion it has been beneficial. Although a couple of months ago everyone got the flu (the normal one) at the same time and he didn't. I haven't seen any negative reactions so that's that.
I have a nasty feeling you aren't joking.
I wish I was joking but anyone can check and see that what I have posted is correct. That does of course not mean that this virus is the start of divine judgement. It just means that it seems to fit. It scares me of course as I am no better than anyone else on the Planet. I am no prophet just a normal Christian. It could well be that it all blows over.
Don't 'normal' christians welcome the final judgment?
I think I've left the faith. Or I'm in the process. Been a RedCafe member since 2006. Grew up Christian, studied theology and religious studies, went to church, all that. Unfortunately, my life changed in a very drastic way about two and half years ago. My faith, my entire worldview just started collapsing. It wasn't even a conscious decision on my part. It just stopped being relevant. It's truly one of the strangest feelings. It's as if an integral part of my identity as an individual has just.. evaporated.
You may well find that it starts feeling relevant again in years to come. There have been a number of major Catholic saints who experienced "the dark night of the soul" for very long periods of time.
Yeah, I'm not closing the door to anything. It's just that it has become so absolutely irrelevant over the last couple of years. And there's no point in pretending.
I was quite upfront with my old vicar who had confirmed me as a teenager when I told him more or less the same around 18. I had so much respect for him and he'd always been kind and quietly brilliant. He wasn't overly perturbed, he didn't feel the need to persuade me and keep the numbers up but he did say, 'You might feel that you are forgetting God, but he will never forget you.' I know maybe that's a bit trite but I never in fact forget that and I may have lost my way but eventually returned to God for meaning in my life and found my faith again. Too late to go and find my vicar and tell him unfortunately but I'm sure he knows. It's all a bit trite reading that back but I'm sure that feeling that you are losing your faith won't be the end of the story.
Yes , but we are all sinners and no better than anyone else, so the fear factor is always there. Unless you are a person who feels they are perfect.
There's certainly a weird masochism about the rapture from many christians.
It's not just Christians, all faiths warn against hubris at the moment of reaching the "pearly gates" because entrance will be denied. The ever-unrelenting devil will take a lot of the flock because they will leave the door open for him to whisper his last chance saloon whisper into your ear as you pass out of this life: "look how good you are, you're fantastic. Tell God that when you meet Him".
How do people feel about the churches that are keeping their doors open and telling people that they will be saved from Covid-19 because faith. Many examples now of pastors dying because that’s the route they took.
To me it’s complete and utter negligence on their part
To me it’s complete and utter negligence on their part
It is utter negligence. I'm sure other faiths are doing the same, e.g. some mosques saying pray away the virus in congregation rather than follow medical advice. Though thankfully none in the West and even those in Pakistan, India, etc, are being beaten with sticks, justifiably.
Can the pastors in the US not be arrested? I don't think churches in the UK are opening their doors. Even Rome was closed during Mass.
Yes, it's ignorant and wrong. It seems to be some of these big evangelical mega-churches that are doing it in the USA. Catholic churches closed very early in the outbreak, it's absolutely possible to have services streamed online, even during the most important Christian festival of Easter..
The cynic in me says it might have had something to do with wanting the congregations to continue making financial contributions, but I may be wrong.
It's unwise to have public services now. For pastors to open their churches now to have services, they would be assuming that each member of their congregation has the same faith as them, which may not be the case. Agnostics, atheists, or people from other religions may turn up for whatever reason. There is more to church than having services. Now is the time to do things like helping the vulnerable, which many are doing with food banks etc.
The apostle Paul even instructed Christians to obey governing authorities.
And so Paul is basically saying that the governments are making decisions on behalf of all people, including Christians. As long as the intentions are good and right, which obviously they are in the case of this pandemic, Christians should obey. To despise government authority, is to despise God's own instruction.
As far as I have heard almost all of the Muslim countries have closed their mosques and ordered everyone to pray at home.
Just spoke with my uncle in Pakistan and unfortunately mosques are open.
They're praying apart from each other, which completely negates the need to pray in the mosque (duh!) but the situation will get a lot worse when Ramadan starts on Friday/Saturday. Infected numbers will begin shooting up vertically sadly. And these congregators will be directly responsible for any deaths (murders) further down the chain. Really can't believe the political motivated imams aren't warning everyone of these serious sins. The 'sheep' can't put everything on the imams either, they are intelligent enough to understand this by themselves.I saw in the news that even Saudi Arabia had closed the mosques in March. The same in the Gulf too. They are staying closed during Ramazan and Eid too.Just spoke with my uncle in Pakistan and unfortunately mosques are open.
I really can't understand why the sub contintent Muslims are so hard headed?
Politics / power struggle. It's usually the Saudi's we're tut-tutting but surprisingly they're actually serving as the correct beacon for the rest of the Muslim world for once.
True. I think though they have a brutal government this current guy is no fundamentalist nutter.
What do people think about the 5th Karmapa(1384–1415) prophecies about the future of Tibet and China in the lifetime of the 16th Karmapa(August 14, 1924 – November 5, 1981).
I believe in this prophecy given to a student, he accurately describes and predicts events that happened in the 20th century. Only 1/10 of the text is about the future of Tibet and China, the rest is vajrayana buddhist lingo which is hard to understand if you havn't studied it.
http://www.thekarmapaprophecies.com...ction I-Prophecies Arisen from Experience.pdf
Relevant historical quotes
"
From now on, in the successive Karmapas the turning point will be the 16th, same as the 17th, the general Buddha Dharma including the Karma Kagyu doctrine will be like horseflies at the end of the season. 21 The line of the sky-appointed emperors of the East will end. Any outsider will try to take over that country. Faraway invaders will flood in from the east and the north. Tibet will be encircled in a ring. The reign of the king of central Tibet will come to an end.
In Central Tibet, the king will lose (his power) and an evil emanation will manifest as a minister coming from Kongpo. Central Tibet will be in a state of warfare, and its government will fall. Many faraway invaders not previously there will suddenly cover the land in great numbers. The moving machines of the faraway invaders will fly in the sky, watching over the land.
People will be deceived by evil in these bad times. They will take no interest in the dharma while consumed by suffering. Everywhere – be it in the upper, middle, or lower parts – there will be fighting everywhere.
A flow of blood will spring forth from the battlefields. Due to these disputes, agitation and fighting, a place of harmony and happiness will not be found. Because of poverty and forced labour, a place of riches and ease will not be found. Due to torture and imprisonment, a place of liberty will not be found.
It is not that the Triple Gem,34 the Three Roots, and the Protectors will not be able to generate blessings. Rather, conflict will arise from the collective karma of living beings, by strong and evil aspirations, and by the decline of the times. "
He says, in the life of the 16th karmapa(20th century), The line of sky-appointed emperors of China will come to and end. This is true. This ended with the communist revolution by Mao. He says China will be invaded by the north and east, which they were, by Soviet russia from the north and Japan from the east.
He says the reign of the king of central Tibet will come to an end. This is also happened, the king of central Tibet was the Dalai Lama who had to go in exile when Tibet was invaded and annexed by communist China. He says Central tibet will be in state of warfare and be filled by invaders in great numbers, this is a no brainer, he if you know recent tibetan history.
He says tibetants will be forced into poverty, labour and torture and they will be subjected to genocide, which they were.
He states that "The moving machines of the faraway invaders will fly in the sky, watching over the land." I take this to mean that airplanes by invaders will fly over Tibet.
Considering that this was a prophecy given 600 years ago about events events in the 20th century, I think this is pretty impressive piece of evidence of enlightened masters having foresight into the future.
I believe in this prophecy given to a student, he accurately describes and predicts events that happened in the 20th century. Only 1/10 of the text is about the future of Tibet and China, the rest is vajrayana buddhist lingo which is hard to understand if you havn't studied it.
http://www.thekarmapaprophecies.com...ction I-Prophecies Arisen from Experience.pdf
Relevant historical quotes
"
From now on, in the successive Karmapas the turning point will be the 16th, same as the 17th, the general Buddha Dharma including the Karma Kagyu doctrine will be like horseflies at the end of the season. 21 The line of the sky-appointed emperors of the East will end. Any outsider will try to take over that country. Faraway invaders will flood in from the east and the north. Tibet will be encircled in a ring. The reign of the king of central Tibet will come to an end.
In Central Tibet, the king will lose (his power) and an evil emanation will manifest as a minister coming from Kongpo. Central Tibet will be in a state of warfare, and its government will fall. Many faraway invaders not previously there will suddenly cover the land in great numbers. The moving machines of the faraway invaders will fly in the sky, watching over the land.
People will be deceived by evil in these bad times. They will take no interest in the dharma while consumed by suffering. Everywhere – be it in the upper, middle, or lower parts – there will be fighting everywhere.
A flow of blood will spring forth from the battlefields. Due to these disputes, agitation and fighting, a place of harmony and happiness will not be found. Because of poverty and forced labour, a place of riches and ease will not be found. Due to torture and imprisonment, a place of liberty will not be found.
It is not that the Triple Gem,34 the Three Roots, and the Protectors will not be able to generate blessings. Rather, conflict will arise from the collective karma of living beings, by strong and evil aspirations, and by the decline of the times. "
He says, in the life of the 16th karmapa(20th century), The line of sky-appointed emperors of China will come to and end. This is true. This ended with the communist revolution by Mao. He says China will be invaded by the north and east, which they were, by Soviet russia from the north and Japan from the east.
He says the reign of the king of central Tibet will come to an end. This is also happened, the king of central Tibet was the Dalai Lama who had to go in exile when Tibet was invaded and annexed by communist China. He says Central tibet will be in state of warfare and be filled by invaders in great numbers, this is a no brainer, he if you know recent tibetan history.
He says tibetants will be forced into poverty, labour and torture and they will be subjected to genocide, which they were.
He states that "The moving machines of the faraway invaders will fly in the sky, watching over the land." I take this to mean that airplanes by invaders will fly over Tibet.
Considering that this was a prophecy given 600 years ago about events events in the 20th century, I think this is pretty impressive piece of evidence of enlightened masters having foresight into the future.
Just started reading this book on how the early Muslims understood the famous Satanic Verses incident. It makes quite an interesting claim in the introduction:
A question for religious posters on here - how exactly do you express your faith in terms of traditional devotional practices and rituals, in normal life (i.e. not during the big festivals). E.g., do you pray regularly/how often? Attend church/masjid, etc. regularly? Engage with the community in religious terms? Read scripture? Fast?
The problem that all organised religions face is that only a tiny, tiny minority of each of these have had a real transcendental experience. These few, regardless of which religion (or none) they come from, have much more in common with each other (namely the insights from their experiences), than they do with vast, vast majority of the adherents to the religion from they've come from.
In a very real sense, they have transcended the particular religion in question to reach an 'inner religion' that needs no label.
Meanwhile, the vast mass of adherents remain stuck in 'outer religion' - namely the trappings, dogmas and superficial understandings of the particular religion they adhere to. And the more superficial their understanding, the more violently they will tend to oppose or fight against other religions (or other sects within the same religions), often offering this frenzy - this loud chest-beating - as 'proof' of their religiosity: the classic "empty vessels make most noise".
In a very real sense, they have transcended the particular religion in question to reach an 'inner religion' that needs no label.
Meanwhile, the vast mass of adherents remain stuck in 'outer religion' - namely the trappings, dogmas and superficial understandings of the particular religion they adhere to. And the more superficial their understanding, the more violently they will tend to oppose or fight against other religions (or other sects within the same religions), often offering this frenzy - this loud chest-beating - as 'proof' of their religiosity: the classic "empty vessels make most noise".
I am a sinner but I know I have a very strong relationship with God. I pray every day but do not attend Mass anymore or follow strict religious practices.
I do not read the bible anymore or pray different prayers only the Our Father (Gods Prayer). I do not look down on anyone that does, that has the right feelings in their hearts.
But, as I say I am a sinner and don’t know if I’ll ever change, God is the final refuge of a scoundrel and that is very true.
I do not read the bible anymore or pray different prayers only the Our Father (Gods Prayer). I do not look down on anyone that does, that has the right feelings in their hearts.
But, as I say I am a sinner and don’t know if I’ll ever change, God is the final refuge of a scoundrel and that is very true.
I was wondering whether any of the resident muslims or who come from a muslim background who can recommend imams, muslim theologians or muslim leaders who best express the Islam they consider to the be the correct interpretation and are influential? It's because I geniuenly don't know and would like to see some debates or dialoges with them.. With Buddhism and Hinduism quite a spring to mind. With Christianity I don't really know either since I lost interest in religion quite early. in my life.
I know this was a while ago and sorry I came to the "party" late, but do you have an example of this?
If you look at the history of the 4 great Imams who formed the 4 schools of thought they were imprisoned, punished, killed. Unfortunately this seems to be the way with some of the good scholars even today. There is a place in Saudi (name escapes me) where something like 75% of the men/scholars are in prison because their explanation on Islam doesn't fit in with the current rulership.
There are debates/dialogues on social media (so even the late Ahmad deedat or Shabbir Alli etc) but I don't think muslims would say they were an authourity on Islam per se, much more specialists in a certain field that they debate/discuss.
For me the majority, if not all, current people on social media are more a "tv personality" than someone I would seriously listen to in terms of seeking knowledge of Islam.
Do you have anything specific in mind?
No nothing specific just the spokesmen of Islam who Redcafe's muslim and perhaps more "mordern" muslims feel represent and express the interpretation of Islam they consider to be the most true and reasonable. I did just stumble on the name of Shabir Ally and saw a 2 fairly short videos with him and he does come across as fairly reasonable, although there is a few of his comments in those videos I would object to, but nothing completely over the top.
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Give Mufti Menk (based in southern Africa) a listen. He seems to be the go to for younger Muslims.
I'm not overly a fan of the two guys I mentioned, they did or do what got them recognition but as far as I know didn't claim to be scholars or Imams.
Its really difficult to give a response to your question tbh, for me anyway. One of the reasons being that many of the decent guys are not known on social media etc but also what I found was a guy can be good in one thing but weak or not so good on something else. Further complicated by their stances later in life etc. So someone like Awlaki did an absolutely amazing series on the lives of the Companions but was killed and declared a terrorist towards the end. This complicated things as his series is still very good but the name means listening to it can get you arrested.
9/11 saw many change their stance or dissociate themselves from earlier works through fear of being labelled extremist. Not all works imo were extremist just certain words, like jihad became a no no. I think that's incorrect as it would have been the perfect time to discuss this issue as too many people were misusing it.
I've gone through various people over the years who I wouldn't go near now.
A good example of what I said above. Used to think he was quite good until he had a bit of a meltdown discussing quran and jihad. Totally made up a narrative on a video
I'm at work now and it's been a while since I've gone around debunking this but I have no doubt I could source a few pretty easily.
What meltdown is this? There's quite the trend nowadays hating on western orientated scholars and I hope you're not talking about that.
No worries whenever you get time. I'm also on a long run after about 4pm today so if you don't hear anything it's because I will probably be travelling to London.
Meltdown may be wrong choice of word. But he basically did a video on verses of the Quran where he certain ones were not applicable to muslims but only to the companions.
Now whereas there are verses which were for the time and place certain ones are applicable for all muslims. An example would be praying or fasting or giving alms/charity. For any scholar to say these were not applicable today, he would rightly be refuted from all quarters/schools of thought and even sects.
MM was also refuted/criticised for this but he simply removed the video and never came back to provide any evidences or take back his assertions and refused (as far as I know to this day) to answer questions etc regarding his video.
I'm not sure what you mean by western orientated scholars? However if it simply means scholars who are there for a western audience (muslim and non muslim) then I personally think we need more of them. Not least because for people like me more needs to be discussed or spoken about in context of our "western reality". What I mean is pakistani scholar or a saudi scholar talking about issues of the day affecting those countries doesn't really address the issues that I may be facing having been bought up in UK and the "clashes" (again maybe wrong choice of words) that I face day to day. These can be simply dress to prayers or working in certain environments
Hope that makes sense. I'm not the best at getting things across in written form
I haven't seen that and will (if there is still a youtube)
and I meant folks like Mufti Menk, Nauman Khan, Yasir Qadhi etc. They get a lot of unjustified hate for no reason in my opinion. Specifically Yasir Qadhi. There are groups of muslims who just get uncomfortable at the idea of him taking on conventional wisdom.
Just because something has been thought of right for a few hundred years does not make it right forever.
As far as I know it got removed from youtube. It was available on another platform but was removed from there too. I don't know but maybe google etc may show it from someone's social media account. I used to have it but not anymore.
The likes of Noman Ali Khan and a few others don't hold as much sway as MM did/does as they wouldn't fall into scholar territory. They would be "dahis" (sp) who give dawah and have found a niche. I don't see them being much more than social media personalities who have done alright from it.
Yasir Qadhi is a strange one on that he was really good for a while. But now his detractors don't do so out of a sense of him being western orientated but more on what he says and it having very little to no basis, in Islam, in some of his stances or comments. Bit like what I said about MM.
If I can use Harun Yahya (adnan okter)as an extreme example. In my early forays into Islam I read and listened.to a lot of his stuff. And many people I knew did. He was western orientated and was at one time very good on certain topics. But he has had a proper meltdown since 9/11. Changing some of his stances to establishing what was called a cult now being accused of sex abuse and fraud etc.
Obviously that's an extreme example but that is what I meant earlier when I said some works by certain people were really good but situations and time has made them no no's