Religion, what's the point?

Abraxas

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Of course, that's true. Science can't explain a "why", and as human beings there's a very powerful desire for stuff to have meaning. Even if we gain as perfect knowledge as we can about the beginning of the Universe, and figure out exactly how life came to be (and perhaps manage to create it on our own), that motivation is going to be there for some.

It doesn't have to be filled with organized religion, though.
It's hard to see how we'd ever have closure on the origin of the universe. Maybe I would sound like those in the middle ages that would not have conceived of electricity. But even if science finds that the origin of this universe is another universe...then what? If that universe got farted out of a black hole, then what? It's a never ending rabbit hole of interesting facts that are of very little consequence beyond the knowing of them.

I don't necessarily think organised religion fills that void, at least for me it does not, the fact it is organised makes me suspicious in and of itself because if we know anything about history then we have to ask for who's benefit?

But I also think there's a rather unhealthy relationship between the way that we look at science versus other philosophical/spiritual lines of enquiry in the West and some of the tones taken in this thread reflect that. There's a lot of shunning, looking down upon, failure to realise what science is setup to adequately address in its current guise and with its current belief systems, - it is reminiscent of the way religion has treated observers in the past. In some ways it is natural because we look around and see what science has done and will continue to do for us.
 

Fingeredmouse

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But I also think there's a rather unhealthy relationship between the way that we look at science versus other philosophical/spiritual lines of enquiry in the West and some of the tones taken in this thread reflect that. There's a lot of shunning, looking down upon, failure to realise what science is setup to adequately address in its current guise and with its current belief systems, - it is reminiscent of the way religion has treated observers in the past. In some ways it is natural because we look around and see what science has done and will continue to do for us.
Whilst I agree that a bit more civility in discourse might be nice I think it's quite a stretch to describe science as a belief system in any sense comparable with how we'd use that expression regarding a religion. It's a methodology surely not a belief system?

Inherently, science is designed to have no certainties. There is no scientific tenet that cannot be overturned by evidence. This is not so of religion, where belief in at least certain aspects of a religious school of thought must be maintained (leaving aside that picking and choosing which bits of a religion to adhere to is a can of worms for any religious faith or evolution of religion argument).
 

2cents

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Have any of you listened to the talk on Youtube of Richard Dawkins and Ricky Gervais? They put forward some very good points on god not being real and their scepticism on religion.
This feels like a post from about twelve years ago.
 

tomaldinho1

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Have any of you listened to the talk on Youtube of Richard Dawkins and Ricky Gervais? They put forward some very good points on god not being real and their scepticism on religion.
I found his one with Lex Fridman from a couple of years ago really good, not the biggest fan of Gervais personally.
 

tomaldinho1

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He is a big advocate of atheism, when talking about religion and god and him being serious, he actually comes across as quite intelligent and makes some good points.
Agreed I'm just not a fan (albeit I love shows he produced there's just something about him I find incredibly forced).
 

Abraxas

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Whilst I agree that a bit more civility in discourse might be nice I think it's quite a stretch to describe science as a belief system in any sense comparable with how we'd use that expression regarding a religion. It's a methodology surely not a belief system?

Inherently, science is designed to have no certainties. There is no scientific tenet that cannot be overturned by evidence. This is not so of religion, where belief in at least certain aspects of a religious school of thought must be maintained (leaving aside that picking and choosing which bits of a religion to adhere to is a can of worms for any religious faith or evolution of religion argument).
My point is not so much that scientific method in the abstract is a belief system, but that those within science are necessarily part of a belief system. It can be traced through the educational system, to the institutions that fund science, to the need to maintain academic validity and the way this constrains thought. I think it directly influences the lines of enquiry we take, and perhaps most fundamentally the interpretive value of science.

There is no better place to see that in action than around quantum science where we theorise until we're blue in the face while attempting to retain old paradigms that plainly do not work and were only plausible within a specific subset.
 

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When Jesus was hanging on the cross, he apparently was surprised that God did not bring him down from there ("My god, my god, why have you forsaken me"). So, he was not God's son after all. Or maybe he was... Maybe he was in fact God's son, but he was left to die so every one else could be saved. Ok?

Not such a great sacrifice, anyway, since he apparently didn't die after all (make the logic out of it, if you can). Cause he then suddenly raised up from death, went to heaven and because God's right had. I mean, if he had gone to hell, see, then we could have talked about sacrifice.
Religion is shite but can be quite interesting at times.

 

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Using the same logic people who do not believe in a god can also stumble. You cannot get to the origin of everything. Even if you believe the world came into existence by coincidence, or by chance, there has to have been somewhere that those particles, whatever created this world, came from. And it goes on and on. Everything has to come from something, and eventually you reach a point where you're not sure where a thing originated from.

Thats the point where you're faced with a choice. You either choose to believe to worship a God and believe everything originated from one God, or you choose to worship your own desires, and thought, and go by that.
But when you don't know the answer to something, you don't just make up your own version of events and then say it's true.
 

Dve

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It's good you accepted the war bit. As I say it's tiresome.


Nowhere have I said Christianity is a conspiracy theory. And I don't need to defend any religion per se. The fact you think I do kind of proves my point about aggression and lack of understanding.

I didn't laugh at science inlaugh at the notion being put forwarded using science, especially as a catch all term same as inlaugh at the catch all term of "religions". Yes it amuses me.

I don't have to agree with any of your notions to be fair. And generally that isn't how discussions work, as in you can't assume a person's stance or put words in a person's mouth.

Religion like certain sciences has had an "evolution". So I like to try and apply the same principles. (Don't read into the word evolution I can't think of a better word Currently)

So just like the notion of Gravity can change from (arguably) Aristotle to (definitely)Newton to Einstein, why not religions?

PS. As I mentioned it's Ramadhan which brings about certain obligations. So hence the scattered responses, which will continue
Proves my lack of understanding of what, exactly? And I disagree with your description of my post as "aggressive".

You said I cannot generalise out from one religion (i.e. all of them being conspiracy theories), witch implies that you accepted my one example. That's not putting words into your mouth. In contrary, you put words into my mouth by suggesting I was referring to some book or site I´ve never heard of.

About war religions, yes, I would still argue that Islam is one of them, as Muhammed himself was first of all a conquerer, and his new religion was very much used with political purposes. This is also explains the importance of loyalty in Islam. And yes, I would call it a conspiracy theory, where its opponents are accused of conspiring with evil forces. Not very different from more recent conspiracy theories in that sense.
 

Dve

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Using the same logic people who do not believe in a god can also stumble. You cannot get to the origin of everything. Even if you believe the world came into existence by coincidence, or by chance, there has to have been somewhere that those particles, whatever created this world, came from. And it goes on and on. Everything has to come from something, and eventually you reach a point where you're not sure where a thing originated from.

Thats the point where you're faced with a choice. You either choose to believe to worship a God and believe everything originated from one God, or you choose to worship your own desires, and thought, and go by that.
Cannot really see the logic here. Worshipping god is very much worshipping your own desires. Desire for help, desire for answers, and even desire for eternal life. My desires are far less, as I accept that I'm dead when I'm dead. It's actually must easier (and even healthier, I will claim) to come to peace with that, than keep on worrying your whole life that you in the end won't make the cut.

I have no problems with people being religious, however. My problems start with its institutions and its inherent hung to totalitarianism.
 

Jericholyte2

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Apologies for the random rant, I’m in one of those moods. It’s all just another, maybe the oldest, system of control:

- why is he/she rich and I’m poor? God made them high and lowly and ordered their estate.
- why am I ostracised for being homosexual? GOD hates homosexuality
- why do women have to be subjugated? Because God made Eve from the rib of Adam’s rib
- why can’t women have abortions? Because ONLY GOD gets to take a life
- how can I get to heaven? Pay indulgences out of the pittance you get
- why can’t I look internally for my morality? Cause then you’ll spend eternity in hell

It’s just pathetic.
 

Wibble

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Do you think?

I think the best CT starts with;

Around 13.8 billion years ago, all the matter in the Universe emerged from a single, minute point, or singularity, in a violent burst
Forming a scientific theory that best fits the evidence can in no way be considered a conspiracy theory. Conspiracy theories depend on evidence being misrepresented or ignored and big bang/expansion from a singularity theory does no such thing. Ill informed incredulity does not make something a conspiracy theory. If there is a better theory that fits the facts great. But if someone just says "we don't know everything" then the next logical step isn't filling the gaps with whatever evidenceless nonsense that first comes into their head.

If that is what someone chooses to do then why is that god the answer and not scientology's deities or any other religion's deity? Or some new age spiritual nonsense?
 
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Denis79

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Do you think?

I think the best CT starts with;

Around 13.8 billion years ago, all the matter in the Universe emerged from a single, minute point, or singularity, in a violent burst
There is actual evidence that suggest this though.
 

Roane

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Proves my lack of understanding of what, exactly? And I disagree with your description of my post as "aggressive".

You said I cannot generalise out from one religion (i.e. all of them being conspiracy theories), witch implies that you accepted my one example. That's not putting words into your mouth. In contrary, you put words into my mouth by suggesting I was referring to some book or site I´ve never heard of.

About war religions, yes, I would still argue that Islam is one of them, as Muhammed himself was first of all a conquerer, and his new religion was very much used with political purposes. This is also explains the importance of loyalty in Islam. And yes, I would call it a conspiracy theory, where its opponents are accused of conspiring with evil forces. Not very different from more recent conspiracy theories in that sense.

I wasn't "accepting" anything. Just pointed out you can't use one thing to justify all others. That is the lack of understanding. No different for me in people saying they had issues with say Catholicism and a white beardy guy and as a result now put all religions in that category. Or to downplaying evolution simply because of one or two mad things people say about it.

The book and site, as I explained, use the approach you initially took, and continue to do so. So the bit about war. What is your reasoning behind this when the scripture and actions, in this case Muhammad, say the opposite? The first 3 wars in Islam were a direct result of persecution and attacks. So defensive in their nature. Similarly subsequent wars have certain explanations that you won't find in the Greek and Latin texts (these being pretty much anti Islam). Yet historical documents will tell you a different story than the one presented. See for example the taking of Spain. Even the crusades were unprovoked attacks.

You'll have to explain the evil forces bit. Can't get my head around that as you've presented it.
 

Roane

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Forming a scientific theory that best fits the evidence can in no way be considered a conspiracy theory. Conspiracy theories depend on evidence being misrepresented or ignored and big bang/expansion from a singularity theory does no such thing. Ill informed incredulity does not make something a conspiracy theory. If there is a better theory that fits the facts great. But if someone just says "we don't know everything" then the next logical step isn't filling the gaps with whatever evidenceless nonsense that first comes into their head.

If that is what someone chooses to do then why is that god the answer and not scientology's deities or any other religion's deity? Or some new age spiritual nonsense?
Which was kind of my point when I first wrote that response.

Let's apply some of the processes that science uses to religion and maybe we may get a different understanding. Note here I don't mean agreement I mean understanding
 

Roane

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Apologies for the random rant, I’m in one of those moods. It’s all just another, maybe the oldest, system of control:

- why is he/she rich and I’m poor? God made them high and lowly and ordered their estate.
- why am I ostracised for being homosexual? GOD hates homosexuality
- why do women have to be subjugated? Because God made Eve from the rib of Adam’s rib
- why can’t women have abortions? Because ONLY GOD gets to take a life
- how can I get to heaven? Pay indulgences out of the pittance you get
- why can’t I look internally for my morality? Cause then you’ll spend eternity in hell

It’s just pathetic.
Also not true.
 

Roane

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You have just echoed what almost all of the greatest scientific minds have been saying.
Proof?
It is a fact that the universe is expanding.
It is therefore a fact that yesterday the universe must have been smaller.
So wind the clock backwards... and you have exactly what you have quoted.
No CT.
What is not yet understood is why.
You do know that religious texts spoke about the expansion of the universe?

I believe before science did, or as we know today anyway
 

Wibble

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Which was kind of my point when I first wrote that response.

Let's apply some of the processes that science uses to religion and maybe we may get a different understanding. Note here I don't mean agreement I mean understanding
I'd say that we have applied them and found nothing.
 

Wibble

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You do know that religious texts spoke about the expansion of the universe?

I believe before science did, or as we know today anyway
They talked about lots of things but vague mentions of spreading out heavens and the like has zero to do with big bang theory.
 

Roane

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I'd say that we have applied them and found nothing.
I'd say we haven't.

With the greatest of respect here,. I think it was you who wrote earlier about being religious and moving away from it. Catholicism and the white beardy guy etc

The question I want to ask you is if you disagreed with one aspect of science, one field, would you dismiss all science? If not then why dismiss all religion based on Catholicism?
 

Wibble

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I'd say we haven't.

With the greatest of respect here,. I think it was you who wrote earlier about being religious and moving away from it. Catholicism and the white beardy guy etc

The question I want to ask you is if you disagreed with one aspect of science, one field, would you dismiss all science? If not then why dismiss all religion based on Catholicism?
I wouldn't dismiss all science if I had a problem with a small bit of it. If there was no evidence for any science I would dismiss science. But since this can't be the case it is a meaningless question.

There is no evidence for anything supernatural despite a huge effort to find it so I dismiss it all. It lacks the evidential base we use for almost everything else in life.

And I didn't find Catholicism in particular problematic. I found the whole concept of an invisible supernatural all powerful creator, and in fact any supernatural being, odd. Then the more I thought about it I found it unbelievable and then finally realised it was nothing but an inherited folk tale.

“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence” Carl Sagan
 

Roane

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They talked about lots of things but vague mentions of spreading out heavens and the like has zero to do with big bang theory.

This is not my experience at all, and further supports my argument that people dismiss things they don't like based on one experience. Tbf religious folk do this too.

Everything has a process. A scientific process if you will. So if we take Islam and science. Yes people say the big bang and universe expansion is in the Qur'an. And yes you read the verse and maybe think " aye but its vague". However have you done it justice and have you followed the process you would with a scientific theory? For me no. It's dismissed because it's religion.

Science makes statements too. They can be vague or even (more likely) in terminology not always understood by everyone. So you follow a process. You break it down, you do your research. You look at opposing views then you reach a conclusion.

Religion isn't much different. If I can use Islam here. You have a statement. Expanding universe, big bang. It's usually an ayat (couple of lines) that in and of itself may not be sufficient. So you look through tafsir, you look to explanations by the great physicians and mathematicians and then draw a conclusion. Again fair enough if you then disagree.

Even simple things as Salah (prayer) for a Muslim has this format. The Qur'an simply says pray. The methodology was how Muhammad taught it go his companions.

Again not to be rude but you don't place your faith on something based on Ricky Gervais. That's as nuts as flat earthers to me.
 

Roane

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I wouldn't dismiss all science if I had a problem with a small bit of it. If there was no evidence for any science I would dismiss science. But since this can't be the case it is a meaningless question.

There is no evidence for anything supernatural despite a huge effort to find it so I dismiss it all. It lacks the evidential base we use for almost everything else in life.

And I didn't find Catholicism in particular problematic. I found the whole concept of an invisible supernatural all powerful creator, and in fact any supernatural being, odd. Then the more I thought about it I found it unbelievable and then finally realised it was nothing but an inherited folk tale.

“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence” Carl Sagan
Maybe the problem is in the word science. I know for the early scholars it wasn't a catch all term. For muslim scholars it wasn't for a lot longer.

A scientific fact isn't the same as a mathematical fact, for example. However we don't dismiss a scientific fact (or theory) we kind of build upon it. So as I mentioned earlier the notion of Gravity changed between Newton and Einstein but we still called it gravity even after the changes. We didn't dismiss it and call it something else. However with religion we tend to just take a notion and dismiss all religion as a result rather than try and understand it from another perspective. So in your case issues with Catholicism didn't mean looking at another religions perspective but instead dismiss al religion.

I would say the same about the use of the word supernatural. I can see why the notion of a God would be seen as supernatural. However is the big bang not also to be placed in the same category? Something from nothing and so perfect is more of a leap of faith than a creator for me.
 

Wibble

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This is not my experience at all, and further supports my argument that people dismiss things they don't like based on one experience. Tbf religious folk do this too.
One experience? Huh? I left one religion, based on the lack of evidence for any religion/supernatural being and not just the Catholic/Christian god. I've had many experiences over nearly 60 years and being a trained scientist I'm pretty good at recognising reliable evidence and evaluating the reliability of evidence. There is zero evidence for a supernatural god or any supernatural being.

Everything has a process. A scientific process if you will. So if we take Islam and science. Yes people say the big bang and universe expansion is in the Qur'an. And yes you read the verse and maybe think " aye but its vague". However have you done it justice and have you followed the process you would with a scientific theory? For me no. It's dismissed because it's religion.
There are all sorts of processes that have nothing to do with science. And what scientific process could you apply to a vague statement in an ancient religious book? If the colour blue was mentioned you wouldn't think that it was predicting chromatics, or colorimetry. The bible mentioning animals on Noah's Ark wasn't anything to do with biology. It is reverse engineering to fit a belief system.

Science makes statements too. They can be vague or even (more likely) in terminology not always understood by everyone. So you follow a process. You break it down, you do your research. You look at opposing views then you reach a conclusion.
That isn't how science operates.

Ancient religions didn't have any way of knowing about a big bang so it is obviously utter nonsense to suggest that anything written there it is in fact demonstrating knowledge. It is outright impossible.

Religion isn't much different. If I can use Islam here. You have a statement. Expanding universe, big bang. It's usually an ayat (couple of lines) that in and of itself may not be sufficient. So you look through tafsir, you look to explanations by the great physicians and mathematicians and then draw a conclusion. Again fair enough if you then disagree. [/aquote]

That is confused nonsense. You don't cherry pick a few vague statements and try to shoehorn them into scientific theory to prove that there must have been someone who "knew" when the books were written. That isn't at all how science works. That isn't how logic or evidence works. You may use observations to form a hypothesis but you then test it to see if it is true within the bounds of the study. Hypotheses are then refined, retested and our knowledge builds. As our understanding is refined what we know as "fact" evolves. Picking a vague statement from an ancient religious book, saying a line or two sounds like something scientific in no way validates the idea or the concept of there being a supernatural being. If there is a supernatural being you need empirical evidence of that being existing.

Even simple things as Salah (prayer) for a Muslim has this format. The Qur'an simply says pray. The methodology was how Muhammad taught it go his companions.

Again not to be rude but you don't place your faith on something based on Ricky Gervais. That's as nuts as flat earthers to me.
I really don't think you understand how science operates. A procedure, lets say a 10 step one how to make a cup of tea, is not scientific in nature. Science often uses methods and procedures to investigate things but it is not simply a procedure.

Wikipedia describes the scientific method quite well. It is not just a procedure. Not even close.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

[quote="wikipedia]The scientific method is an empirical method of acquiring knowledge that has characterized the development of science since at least the 17th century (with notable practitioners in previous centuries). It involves careful observation, applying rigorous skepticism about what is observed, given that cognitive assumptions can distort how one interprets the observation. It involves formulating hypotheses, via induction, based on such observations; experimental and measurement-based testing of deductions drawn from the hypotheses; and refinement (or elimination) of the hypotheses based on the experimental findings. These are principles of the scientific method, as distinguished from a definitive series of steps applicable to all scientific enterprises.
Ricky Gervais? Huh? What has he got to do with anything?

I also don't have faith or belief in anything. I understand things based on the evidence. As DNA once said (to paraphrase) "the only valid use of the word believe is when you choose to believe (or not) that your child is being truthful when they tell you them didn't eat the last chocolate biscuit".
 

Wibble

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A scientific fact isn't the same as a mathematical fact, for example. However we don't dismiss a scientific fact (or theory) we kind of build upon it. So as I mentioned earlier the notion of Gravity changed between Newton and Einstein but we still called it gravity even after the changes. We didn't dismiss it and call it something else. However with religion we tend to just take a notion and dismiss all religion as a result rather than try and understand it from another perspective. So in your case issues with Catholicism didn't mean looking at another religions perspective but instead dismiss al religion.
We build on scientific knowledge as the evidence builds and our understanding based on that evidence evolves. We don't do this with religion because there is zero evidence to even start with. We dismiss things for which there is zero evidence for its existence, be it a god or ghosts or [insert name of anything that doesn't exist]. And I didn't dismiss any Catholic perspective, I realised that there was no such thing as a god or other supernatural beings for that matter, not just a Catholic god. There was, and is, literally no evidence for it.

If people want to believe then that is their concern but you can't claim that there is any logical or evidence based proof that an invisible supernatural creator exists. The evidence is totally missing and people have been looking for a very long time.

I would say the same about the use of the word supernatural. I can see why the notion of a God would be seen as supernatural. However is the big bang not also to be placed in the same category? Something from nothing and so perfect is more of a leap of faith than a creator for me.
Because a singularity is not nothing. We examine the theory in light of the available evidence and the evidence points to the theory being broadly correct and where it doesn't we try to refine things to better explain the evidence. That evidence gets harder and harder to confirm the closer you get to the singularity but we are getting there. That is the nature of science. But we don't just fill the gaps with something we wish were true though.

To paraphrase Dara O'Briain "Science knows it doesn't know everything. Otherwise it would stop".
 

Buster15

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You do know that religious texts spoke about the expansion of the universe?

I believe before science did, or as we know today anyway
No I didn't. So please enlighten me. Which religious texts ?