Some of the people who have an issue with Qatari or Saudi ownership definitely just don't like Muslims, a larger percentage don't openly dislike them but have a subconscious bias. That small minority shouldn't be used as an answer to legitimate criticism though.In a day and age where the far right is being increasingly normalised within the mainstream globally, where America has just literally had a white supremacist dog whistle president, Brexit UK - where residents of the country were manipulated using their own racism to commit national suicide, extreme right parties all across Europe gaining leverage and all this on the back of a 20 year ‘War on Terror’ campaign that was essentially just mass media dehumanising of and then bombing of Muslim countries.
And you don’t think racism plays any part in the anti-middle eastern ownership contingent?
Not in every individual person, of course, but within the contingent as a whole, it’s ludicrous given the context of the World we’re currently living in to suggest it plays no part.
I’m sure you can concede that.
No I can't concede that. The main issue with Qatar is the fact they're a regime that human rights charities and LGBT+ groups are concerned about. The idea that people against Qatar is ridiculous. Unless you think Newcastle and City fans who now celebrate their own owners are not racist.In a day and age where the far right is being increasingly normalised within the mainstream globally, where America has just literally had a white supremacist dog whistle president, Brexit UK - where residents of the country were manipulated using their own racism to commit national suicide, extreme right parties all across Europe gaining leverage and all this on the back of a 20 year ‘War on Terror’ campaign that was essentially just mass media dehumanising of and then bombing of Muslim countries.
And you don’t think racism plays any part in the anti-middle eastern ownership contingent?
Not in every individual person, of course, but within the contingent as a whole, it’s ludicrous given the context of the World we’re currently living in to suggest it plays no part.
I’m sure you can concede that.
Agree nothing to do with racism, it's the appalling treatment of migrants, suppression of women and treatment of LGBT+. Turning a blind eye to all this would be terribleNo I can't concede that. The main issue with Qatar is the fact they're a regime that human rights charities and LGBT+ groups are concerned about. The idea that people against Qatar is ridiculous. Unless you think Newcastle and City fans who now celebrate their own owners are not racist.
And that, is your issue right there. Thanks for being candid...I don’t think there is a race element for the most part. No - I think that’s ridiculous to put forward.
Of course deep rooted structural racism plays it's part in this discussion and is a concsious or unconscious factor in one's opinion making. But you could also make an argument that deep routed structural heteronormativity does as well, just the other way round.In a day and age where the far right is being increasingly normalised within the mainstream globally, where America has just literally had a white supremacist dog whistle president, Brexit UK - where residents of the country were manipulated using their own racism to commit national suicide, extreme right parties all across Europe gaining leverage and all this on the back of a 20 year ‘War on Terror’ campaign that was essentially just mass media dehumanising of and then bombing of Muslim countries.
And you don’t think racism plays any part in the anti-middle eastern ownership contingent?
Not in every individual person, of course, but within the contingent as a whole, it’s ludicrous given the context of the World we’re currently living in to suggest it plays no part.
I’m sure you can concede that.
And that, is your issue right there. Thanks for being candid...
So why are you arguing that when it's such a pointless argument? (to me anyway)
Of course the HR issues are valid points about Qatar as a country and they are issues that should be brought up repeatedly - I would hope that a prominent Qatari owning Utd would increase the volume of that.No I can't concede that. The main issue with Qatar is the fact they're a regime that human rights charities and LGBT+ groups are concerned about. The idea that people against Qatar is ridiculous. Unless you think Newcastle and City fans who now celebrate their own owners are not racist.
The other day someone pointed out that those who voted for Qatar in the United thread were much more likely to want a certain United player to return in a similar poll.Of course deep rooted structural racism plays it's part in this discussion and is a concsious or unconscious factor in one's opinion making. But you could also make an argument that deep routed structural heteronormativity does as well, just the other way round.
You can’t extrapolate from ONE post and then say there is an issue with racism. I’m absolutely not having it. The concerns from Qatar mainly stem from an issue with their human rights records. Simple as. Otherwise you’re going to argue the Newcastle fans supporting their Saudi owners with teatowels over their heads can’t be racist.Of course the HR issues are valid points about Qatar as a country and they are issues that should be brought up repeatedly - I would hope that a prominent Qatari owning Utd would increase the volume of that.
But to suggest that racism plays no part when you’ve got posters in here calling Jassim a ‘goatfecker’ etc is a stretch.
It’s obvious that racism / xenophobia plays a significant role for some of the anti-Jassim contingent, it’s bizarre to suggest otherwise.
Does that make sense to you? You see some posters (how many and who?) "calling those who have an issue with misogyny, homophobia and treatment of minorities as something they disagree with as racism" so you go on for weeks about how there isn't a race element (at all right?), lump a bunch of posters in together and go on some crusade to convince them they are wrong about their suspicions without providing any evidence to back that up other than feelings and.......... what else? (feel free to provide some)Because I’m fed up of people calling those who have an issue with misogyny, homophobia and treatment of minorities as something they disagree with as racism.
Utterly bizarre and not a good look.it’s bizarre to suggest otherwise.
Does that make sense to you? You see some posters (how many?) "calling those who have an issue with misogyny, homophobia and treatment of minorities as something they disagree with as racism" so you go on for weeks about how there isn't a race element (at all), lump a bunch of posters in together and go on some crusade to convince them they are wrong about their suspicions without providing any evidence to back that up other than feelings and.......... what else?
What are you hoping to achieve?
Utterly bizarre ad not a good look.
How can you trust them. Human rights organisations created by the west to create an agenda. That is the demonisation of Muslim countries. I’m glad you’re having a good time hating Muslims.
This is fecking waaay out there.
Bordering on extremism and fecking crazy.
A brilliant footballer, at peak one of the greatest defenders of all time, but off the pitch Rio is a bit of a clown, a clown desperate for attention.Problem with Rio is that he isn't really bright so he ends up more often than not looking like a clown.
Not at all. My disagreement with discounting western HR organisations is something I am consistent on - I fecking want Qatar’s (and every nations) HR abuses to have the volume turned up on them.That’s not what I’ve done at all. I genuinely am confused what you’re going on about.
I don’t think there is any race element in those who don’t want Qatar. The idea is odd to me as the main argument against it is people who care about human rights and how others are portrayed.
This is similar to what Rhyme Animal seemed to think a few months ago based on this exchange.
That you actually think this vehemently enough to stand behind it still, is odd to me. Your whole approach to conversation and debate, is odd to me. Your confusion at the fact that some may have suspicions of a non-insignificant racial element, is odd to me, in light of the recent discussion and some of the sentiment and rhetoric that have come to the surface. The amount of time you have spent banging this drum over and over again, is again, odd to me.That’s not what I’ve done at all. I genuinely am confused what you’re going on about.
I don’t think there is any race element in those who don’t want Qatar. The idea is odd to me as the main argument against it is people who care about human rights and how others are portrayed.
This is similar to what Rhyme Animal seemed to think a few months ago based on this exchange.
You live in the UK, right? Do you seriously think your country and regime is so much better than Saudi's?I am genuinely 100% baffled by this post. I can not imagine living my life viewing the world in this way.
A million times better. No contest.You live in the UK, right? Do you seriously think your country and regime is so much better than Saudi's?
i think he's quite a likeable guy, he's also been hugely successful off the pitch for someone who's 'thick and a bit of a clown'A brilliant footballer, at peak one of the greatest defenders of all time, but off the pitch Rio is a bit of a clown, a clown desperate for attention.
Where you are fecking up, is extrapolating your online experience with a handful of people, into some wider reading of sentiment between millions of different people with different backgrounds and ideas. The only thing in common being that they prefer owner A over owner B for reasons you may or may not be privy to.@afrocentricity / @Rhyme Animal the simple fact is most of the people I’ve seen posting anti Muslim sentiment on these boards before (including one high profile name in the ownership thread) has come out in support of Qatari bid emphatically. Same with the poster known for backing Brexit. I know there is an issue with racism in this country and in the game of football - I think you’re barking up the wrong tree completely.
There is, because you use same arguments for Saudis and Qataris, and I think there's only one thing that's mutual for them, even if they are both bad. That's actually quite racist thing to do.I don’t think there is any race element in those who don’t want Qatar.
Well, not for my point of view. From my experience UK ruined my country, UK literally said "we don't want to allow muslim country in the middle of Europe" quite publicly in the 90s, so that's why the biggest genocide since the world war happened in my country.A million times better. No contest.
Where you are fecking up, is extrapolating your online experience with a handful of people, into some wider reading of sentiment between millions of different people with different backgrounds and ideas. The only thing in common being that they prefer owner A over owner B for reasons you may or may not be privy to.
Do you understand the point I'm making here? Because I feel like you don't and that it would be beneficial to you and some others in the long run, if you did.
My point (and it's my last point today as I run out of posts now) is, that stereotypes will always influence opinion forming. That's the basic reason why there are stereotypes: they help arranging all the information we are subjected to and put it in little boxes so your brain can handle it.The other day someone pointed out that those who voted for Qatar in the United thread were much more likely to want a certain United player to return in a similar poll.
You could easily make your argument that misogyny is also playing an important factor.
The idea that to be anti Qatar means you’re somehow more likely to be racist is maddening. We have literal worldwide human rights charities calling for the takeover to be stopped. There is quite clearly a side that cares more about easing the issues of the world.
I abhor the UK government and think they’re despicable.You live in the UK, right? Do you seriously think your country and regime is so much better than Saudi's?
I can't make you get it, all I can do is attempt to get you to reflect and be more empathic than dogmatic in your beliefs and your arguing. I don't have more to say but I felt like maybe you and some others needed to hear something to prompt some internal reflection on how you may come across to others. Maybe it registers, maybe you care, maybe it doesn't, and maybe you don't....I’m genuinely not being a dick - I don’t get it no!
If you could - do you want to take this to PM? Probably easier to talk there and I am really struggling to understand what you’re trying to say. Probably not worth clogging up this thread.I can't make you get it, all I can do is attempt to get you to reflect and be more empathic than dogmatic in your beliefs and your arguing. I don't have more to say but I felt like maybe you and some others needed to hear something to prompt some internal reflection on how you may come across to others. Maybe it registers, maybe you care, maybe it doesn't, and maybe you don't....
Nope. I'm talking about the explicitly racist posts that litter the threads.You genuinely think the issue people have with Qatar is racism?
PM isn't necessary, honestly. If you understand the words I'm using, like empathic, dogmatic, internal reflection.... I'm sure you will be able to enlighten yourself. I'm not saying anything profound here it's just a bit of advice (prompted from my confusion as to what it was you were doing/saying or trying to achieve).If you could - do you want to take this to PM? Probably easier to talk there and I am really struggling to understand what you’re trying to say. Probably not worth clogging up this thread.
He’s undeniably brilliant in monetizing his reputation as a truly top footballer, but you cannot listen to Rio for 10 minutes without yielding to at least one cringe.i think he's quite a likeable guy, he's also been hugely successful off the pitch for someone who's 'thick and a bit of a clown'
The fact you caveat the first sentence with ‘for the most part’ is an admission you think there is some racism so how is it ‘ridiculous to put forward’?I don’t think there is a race element for the most part. No - I think that’s ridiculous to put forward.
I find him quite down to earth and likeable, he's relatable (as relatable as a millionaire footballer can be I guess) and those cringe and human moments probably add to the appeal for me. Ledge!He’s undeniably brilliant in monetizing his reputation as a truly top footballer, but you cannot listen to Rio for 10 minutes without yielding to at least one cringe.
Fair enough. What I’ll add to that sentiment is that the world needs a few more Rio Ferdinands and a few less Simon Jordans!I find him quite down to earth and likeable, he's relatable (as relatable as a millionaire footballer can be I guess) and those cringe and human moments probably add to the appeal for me. Ledge!
Changing tack here as the underlying racist elements I agree on but also agree are not the single most important factor.No I can't concede that. The main issue with Qatar is the fact they're a regime that human rights charities and LGBT+ groups are concerned about. The idea that people against Qatar is ridiculous. Unless you think Newcastle and City fans who now celebrate their own owners are not racist.
Apologies. I hated using that phrase but in this case, it's fair game imo. Accusing anyone of racism because they oppose a particular state buying United is ridiculous.Yea I’m not conversing with somebody using the term ‘race card’ in 2023 but feel free to read below.
Fair point, If you were to go back 7/8 months I don’t think any fan really wants to be owned by a state, British, Norwegian or Qatari & as much as that’s an issue that I hear about on here at nauseum I don’t really want the club to be a puppet for Ineos either. As for sportswashing, why do you think Ineos is strapped across the chest of Kipchoge at every race? Unfortunately we’re going to be a pawn in whoever wins game.
Being so verbally anti-Qatar because of ‘oil money’, as many in here are, but not being bothered that Ineos is literally a petro-chemical mammoth is ridiculous.
It may have nothing to do with race for you.
Indeed & ‘oil money’ meaning Ineos I take it?
FYI, not all skinfolk is kinfolk.
The rise of the far right is something that has been going on steadily for years. Brexit was a symbol of the direction but plenty of evidence that the country had been going in this direction for several years. As said above, many of those people creating this culture probably would be more than happy to do business with countries like Qatar and Saudi Arabia if it helped increase their wealth. Its ridiculous to try and link that with United fans tradition of being bolshy opinionated bas**rds that don't trust anyone.In a day and age where the far right is being increasingly normalised within the mainstream globally, where America has just literally had a white supremacist dog whistle president, Brexit UK - where residents of the country were manipulated using their own racism to commit national suicide, extreme right parties all across Europe gaining leverage and all this on the back of a 20 year ‘War on Terror’ campaign that was essentially just mass media dehumanising of and then bombing of Muslim countries.
And you don’t think racism plays any part in the anti-middle eastern ownership contingent?
Not in every individual person, of course, but within the contingent as a whole, it’s ludicrous given the context of the World we’re currently living in to suggest it plays no part.
I’m sure you can concede that.
You’ve completely misunderstood what’s been said. And I don’t mean that in an arsey way.The rise of the far right is something that has been going on steadily for years. Brexit was a symbol of the direction but plenty of evidence that the country had been going in this direction for several years. As said above, many of those people creating this culture probably would be more than happy to do business with countries like Qatar and Saudi Arabia if it helped increase their wealth. Its ridiculous to try and link that with United fans tradition of being bolshy opinionated bas**rds that don't trust anyone.
Most right wing people were also more than happy to work with people close to Putin until the PR backlash became too much.
Some of those United fans opposing Qatar were happy to also wave banners opposing the Iraq War in 2003. Are they racist or not?
Were they also anti American for opposing Murdoch and the Glazers? Do they have a deep hatred of the Irish that explained why they protested John Magnier and JP McManus in 2004?
Fair enough. Last post.You’ve completely misunderstood what’s been said. And I don’t mean that in an arsey way.
If you look back at what I’ve said you’ll see that I’ve specifically stated that while for some the reasoning behind preferring Ratcliffe to Jassim will be based purely on altruistic, humanist ideals, with NO RACISM OR XENOPHOBIA in tow, for others racism and / or xenophobia will play a part in their thinking.
That is blatantly obvious.
Just as not everyone who disliked Obama is a racist, but every racist disliked Obama.
If you, or Wumminator, or anyone else is so entrenched and heel dug in that you literally can’t concede that simple truth, then I’ll leave you to it.
But let’s move this into the ownership thread if it needs to continue as it’s taking the thread way off course mate.
A better example would be people that are 'addicted' to a particular musician (what does a film 'addict' that is comparable to a football fan actually look like in practice, aside from saying it's the same thing? I have worked in film on a very low scale and have friends that work in the industry and I consider myself something of a film buff (cringe), but I haven't heard or seen anything that replicates the tribalism of football in a way that is comparable. Being extremely passionate to the extent of being 'addicted' to something is still different to being tribal to one person/team/whatever). There are hordes of Kanye West fans that will bend all logic to justify his anti semitic and hateful speech. I suppose that's what we are seeing with people justifying Saudi involvement or Qatar taking United over. Traditional ideas of right and wrong go out of the windowIt's a false equivocation for you, but there are people who are film addicts in a way that we are football addicts. It's the same thing. Not wanting an owner isn't the same as that owner being bad at their job (or the assumption here being that they'd spend so much that they would achieve their goal regardless of their competence).
I dunno really, but people fully obsess over every little thing actors do the same way footballers get it. And people are absolutely fanboys of certain actors who will defend absolutely everything and be tribal. But yeah much the same was as Kanye has his following or any musical artist does, people worship actors too. Like all the people who worship Leo di Caprio or Brad Pitt or Angelina Jolie, etcA better example would be people that are 'addicted' to a particular musician (what does a film 'addict' that is comparable to a football fan actually look like in practice, aside from saying it's the same thing? I have worked in film on a very low scale and have friends that work in the industry and I consider myself something of a film buff, but I haven't heard or seen anything that replicates the tribalism of football in a way that is comparable. Being extremely passionate to the extent of being 'addicted' to something is still different to being tribal to one person/team/whatever). There are hordes of Kanye West fans that will bend all logic to justify his anti semitic and hateful speech. I suppose that's what we are seeing with people justifying Saudi involvement or Qatar taking United over. Traditional ideas of right and wrong go out of the window
