Riots in Ferguson, St Louis

JustAFan

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They didn't need to put themselves in that position. They could have just not pulled up so close.
Not even bothered by them pulling up like that, but it seems there is only maybe about 3 seconds before the cops pull up and the youngster is shot. So unless the gun was pointed at the cops as they pulled up (which as far as I have read is NOT the case), this really does seem like an unjustified shooting. Even granting that the cops had no idea how old the kid was when they responded and that they were not told that the witness thought it might be a toy gun, they did seem to drive up ready to open fire.

I understand the concern of public safety in case this was a guy with a real gun looking to do real damage, but to me it just seems they were too eager to fire their guns. Or at least the one officer was.
 

mu4c_20le

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EXCLUSIVE: Darren Wilson changed crucial elements of his story in aftermath of Michael Brown shooting - including whether he knew teenager was 'wanted thief'

  • Wilson told the first officer to question him on the death that he did not know about a radio call about two teenagers being wanted for robbery
  • But he later told St Louis detectives that he had matched Michael Brown to the description of wanted suspects
  • He also did not initially reveal that he backed up his car towards Michael Brown and his friend, which he said subsequently
  • Grand jury evidence from his squad supervisor who was first to ask him about shooting discloses discrepancy
  • Wilson has now resigned from force but controversy over death of Brown still rages


Darren Wilson changed his story following the immediate aftermath of the fatal shooting of unarmed black teen Michael Brown to include events about which he initially denied all knowledge.

Evidence presented to the grand jury and reviewed by MailOnline has revealed a crucial difference between the officer's first account of events given to his squad supervisor on the scene and his second statement to St Louis County detectives investigating the shooting.

In Wilson's now very public account of his encounter with Michael Brown and Dorian Johnson on August 9 he has claimed that he asked Brown and Wilson to move to the sidewalk rather than walk in the street.

When they walked on, Wilson has repeatedly stated, he realized they matched the description of two suspects wanted in connection with the robbery of nearby Ferguson Market. A youth matching Brown's description had stolen a box of Swishers cigarillos.

It was this realization, he stated, that caused him to reverse his vehicle and sparked the car-side confrontation that left Brown dead on the street with six bullets in his body.

But the sworn testimony of Wilson's squad supervisor directly contradicts this account.

Wilson's supervisor was the first officer to speak with the 28-year-old cop following the shooting. The men spoke before St Louis County Police had even been notified of the incident and before the medical examiner or investigating officers had arrived on the scene.

At that time, the supervisor said:'He [Wilson] did not know anything about the stealing call.'

When pressed by the attorney questioning him, the officer reiterated that Wilson, 'did not know anything'.

Asked, 'He told you he didn't know about there being a stealing at Ferguson Market?'

The officer responded, 'Correct.'

Nor did he make any mention of reversing his police car back towards the youths.

In fact the squad supervisor stated that, in several subsequent conversations, Wilson said 'he did not have that call.'

Yet two hours after speaking to his supervisor, 28-year-old Wilson gave a very different account to the St Louis County Police detective assigned to conduct a cursory interview with the cop.

In his testimony the St Louis detective, whose name has been redacted in the transcripts that are among the thousands of pages of grand jury evidence made publicly available by Prosecutor Bob McCulloch, recalled: 'He tells me he was leaving an unrelated sick case call and was driving, it would be west on Canfield Road.

'As he's driving he hears a call that was not assigned to him for a stealing in progress at 9101 West Florissant Avenue and he provides us with that address and the nature of the call was a stealing.

'He said that the call comments indicated the suspect description was a black male wearing a black shirt and brown shorts, and that an additional call comment indicated that taken during the stealing were Cigarillos.'

It is a marked discrepancy from Wilson's admission minutes after the shooting that he had no knowledge of that incident. In the time between that denial and this detailed recollection of the suspect's description and goods stolen, Wilson had driven himself back to Ferguson Police Department Headquarters on the city's Main Street.

He had washed his hands clean of any blood and he had been permitted to bag up his own gun as evidence - acts entirely contrary to St Louis County procedure.

And in the course of an hour, he had spent time in the company of the Lieutenant Colonel, his Chief of Police Thomas Jackson, as well as an attorney from the Fraternity of Police Officers.​
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ead-including-knew-teenager-wanted-thief.html


It's the DM but they are running this as an exclusive and claims that they found this information while reviewing the evidence. I couldn't find another paper running this story just yet.
 

naturalized

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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ead-including-knew-teenager-wanted-thief.html


It's the DM but they are running this as an exclusive and claims that they found this information while reviewing the evidence. I couldn't find another paper running this story just yet.
I don't know if this is an "exclusive", but the Caf figured this out like weeks ago, past 3 pages I think.

Wilson changed his story, obviously to seem more sympathetic to the jury ("I was shooting a WANTED FELON!"). No two ways about it, although that doesn't necessarily mean that he wasn't genuinely in fear of his life at the time.
 

Mockney

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The Eric Garner decision seems a far weirder one than Mike Brown's. What's our resident law enforcers views on that?
 

Raoul

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I haven't read the logic behind why the case was rejected. The video seems quite clear though.
 

Mockney

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While I have a semblence of agreement with your earlier posts about the Brown case not being railroaded by political sentiment, there's a certain (perhaps slightly cynical) argument that such a seemingly clear cut case as this could've been an incredibly well timed one politically in helping to calm the building hysterical uproar. It could've assuaged a lot of the growing paranoia, without being particularly controversial either.

Instead they've managed to make it worse. Talk about fuel on the flames. Perhaps, just perhaps, there's something to this racism stuff ey?
 

senorgregster

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http://www.cleveland.com/nation/index.ssf/2014/12/family_of_john_crawford_man_ki.html

A short snippet... Police said he didn't obey commands to put down what turned out to be an air rifle his family said he had taken off a store shelf.


Just seeing the news conference. Not sure if I heard correctly but apparently 0.36 seconds (must have been 3.6) between police stating put the bb gun down. He has very odd behaviour in the video but he was talking on a cell phone at the time.
 

senorgregster

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Wow, just reading up on this one a bit more. Here is the interrogation of his girlfriend right after. Not sure if they had told her yet that he was dead. The video of the cop telling her is bad enough but this is just as bad.


It also seems a shopper there had a heart attack and passed away.
 

senorgregster

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No lawyer?
I haven't looked into it but my guess is they brought her in to tell her the bad news and then laid into her.

I don't understand this grand jury BS. Before all of these recent cases I'd not heard of them. Thought everyone deserved their day in court. Guess only sometimes.
 

JustAFan

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I haven't looked into it but my guess is they brought her in to tell her the bad news and then laid into her.

I don't understand this grand jury BS. Before all of these recent cases I'd not heard of them. Thought everyone deserved their day in court. Guess only sometimes.
It is a simple concept before a case goes to court the prosecution needs to prove it has some kind of case. Obviously since it involves people it will never be perfect. But looking at the entire picture you have to remember it protects innocent people as well.

It is easy to only look at cases like the garner one and forget about all the other cases that happen everyday and you never hear about.
 

senorgregster

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It is a simple concept before a case goes to court the prosecution needs to prove it has some kind of case. Obviously since it involves people it will never be perfect. But looking at the entire picture you have to remember it protects innocent people as well.

It is easy to only look at cases like the garner one and forget about all the other cases that happen everyday and you never hear about.
I'll have to read up on this. Under what circumstances does one occur? Certainly not every case. I'm not sure I agree about protecting innocent people. I'm not saying these cops are guilty. I'm just a believer that they should be tried in a court of law by their peers in an open manner.
 

JustAFan

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I'll have to read up on this. Under what circumstances does one occur? Certainly not every case. I'm not sure I agree about protecting innocent people. I'm not saying these cops are guilty. I'm just a believer that they should be tried in a court of law by their peers in an open manner.

http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-procedure/how-does-a-grand-jury-work.html

Not all States use them and where they are used it is for serious crimes ie murder.

The process is not perfect, as I said, mostly because it involves people and people are by nature far from perfect. Heck there are even cases where people go to trial and the innocent are found guilty or in some cases the guilty are found not guilty and for a wide variety of reasons.

Yes it does protect innocent people, but I have found on the Caf when it comes to high profile cases people tend to only think about the legal process, rules of law etc in terms of that case and their own personal belief of guilty or innocent of the suspect and don't consider all the other cases that they never hear about. Should the cops and prosecutors really be able to drag anyone into a trial for a serious crime without having some basic level of evidence against them? Can you not see where that could easily be abused?

Yes in these cases there is a flaw in the system and that needs to be addressed, but remember as you yourself admit you had never even heard of a grand jury until recently so you might want to think the process through how it relates to all cases where it is used not just these ones that get brought to light.

A good many guilty people who were found guilty in trial first when through a Grand Jury process, and there are probably some innocent people who were spared the burden of having to defend themselves at a trial because the Grand Jury refused to indict them because the prosecution did not have even the most basic level of evidence against them.
 

Welsh Wonder

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Just woken up to the news that another black teen has reportedly been shot and killed by police, this one 2 miles from Ferguson. Antonio Martin.
 

sport2793

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Shootings of black men are going to continue to happen, both warranted and unwarranted ones. It's a long-term socioeconomic problem that will take years to solve. Institutional racism will need to be pointed out and solutions to bring people together will be the only way to stop it.
 

villain

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Antonio Martin - no clear cut details as of yet, some are saying he was unarmed, the law enforcement are saying he was armed and raised a gun to the police. Theres reports that the cop had a body cam but it was "deactivated" also a dashboard cam that was turned off - I don't know if that's true or not, it's pretty damning it if it is.
There's 2 picture's of the crime scene floating around that was uploaded to twitter at about 11.44pm - no gun.
Then 2 hours later a gun magically appears on the floor in the same area as the original pictures were taken.
Suspicious to say the least.
His body lay in the street for about 2 hours while he was alive - no medical help was given to him, but the police were cornering off the scene and calling for "crowd control" after he died they put his body into the back of a SUV - again no ambulance present.
Disgusting.

edit -

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/24/antonio-martin-police-shooting_n_6376210.html

live update website, shows the video that "confirms" he had a gun and pointed it at the officer

pictures taken by passer-by's at the scene 2 hours apart, gun is seen hours later
 
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Skizzo

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@vi1lain none of those twitter pictures were very clear. I'm guessing by your use of quotation marks around choice words... You believe this is a cover up? Just curious as to what leads you to that.

Not saying you're wrong or anything, just having a discussion.
 

villain

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@vi1lain none of those twitter pictures were very clear. I'm guessing by your use of quotation marks around choice words... You believe this is a cover up? Just curious as to what leads you to that.

Not saying you're wrong or anything, just having a discussion.
I think they're about as clear as the CCTV video personally - neither decisively conclude each argument.
The distance of the video from the incident, you can barely make anything out even when you pause it and squint it's no where near clear.

There are stores about 5 feet away with security cameras, that will make it clear what was in his hand if anything at all, so i'm waiting for that footage to be released - but my guess is that it wont be.
 

Skizzo

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I think they're about as clear as the CCTV video personally - neither decisively conclude each argument.
The distance of the video from the incident, you can barely make anything out even when you pause it and squint it's no where near clear.

There are stores about 5 feet away with security cameras, that will make it clear what was in his hand if anything at all, so i'm waiting for that footage to be released - but my guess is that it wont be.
Yeah the story I read indicated the video footage showed SOMETHING in his hand...But couldn't determine what it was. The one thing I found was odd, was that he pulled the gun first, had it pointed but didn't get off any shots at all.
 

saivet

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Seen these were put on the Police's YouTube channel. Only watched each one once and I genuinely have no idea what I'm meant to be looking for.