It's pretty easy to get a second opinion from an independent expert. Especially when you have as much money and influence as Ronaldo does. All you need to do is incentivise the person giving a second opinion to highlight the risks, as opposed to exploiting more loopholes.
Ronaldo to pay 15 millions for tax fraud
- Thread starter barros
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Just doesn't happen in reality though does it?
then they were stupid.
stupid is not defence under the UK law at least. No idea about spain.
the general rule in life is, if you dont understand what you are signing, then dont sign it
Of course they were stupid. But well, it's easy to say how things should be when you're not in their position. They trusted in people to do this.
In terms of law, there's responsibility and there's this word I don't know when you consciously try to hurt or damage an entity. IE, if you lend your car to someone and he crashes a building, you are responsible and must pay it. But you're not guilty as you're not the one who did it.
It's all about understanding the consequences of your acts, which in this case I don't think both players due to their life's dynamism (both in sports and business) could comprehend it well enough.
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Those pink shorts will come back to bit him.
Those pink shorts will come back to bit him.
then dont sign it off.
you sign it to take responsibility.
In this country if you ask HMRC they will work out your tax liability for you. They obviously wont find all the loopholes and you will pay more but you will not be found committing a criminal act. If you employ people to minimise your tax liability and you dont understand what they are doing then you leave yourself open to prosecution. Its the risk you take.
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Does Perez have that type of influence? To simply make the tax man go away. Seems to me as quite a dim view on things. Surely it's much more complicated than that?
You're probably the person to go to on all things Spanish @jojojo. So do you think Perez can use his influence and make it all disappear or is it out of his control. Sorry if it's a stupid question but surely he's just a president and a businessman?
That scum using us? Naa,cant be right.
Not sure
But Real have had some really dodgy dealings with the Spanish government in the past. (Training ground-gate comes to mind)
But that can only go so far. At some point you have to trust the people who appear to be experts. I mean, who other than a specialist doctor could really know if some treatment is worthwhile or not? But you can't wait to become a specialist in that field before deciding if the risk is worth it.
If someone intends to dodge taxes that's one thing but I think if you're just trying to minimise them and are poorly advised that's fairly different. Of course there's a large potential grey area between telling someone to minimise taxes and letting them believe that something illegal needn't be entirely out of the question so long as you yourself don't have to know about it...
But it is possible to just be poorly advised. The money should then be paid but it wouldn't make someone a criminal in my eyes.
That really isnt a valid excuse in the eyes of the court, especially when done in the name of tax avoidance.
Really wish we'd do what Bayern have done and completely kill the rumours.
Let him sort out his own greed.
Let him sort out his own greed.
This. He's definitely not coming back, and we can't allow ourselves to be sucked into a drama like this.
Without the football wikileaks a few months back, Madrid might have had enough behind the scenes influence to help. The leaked documents really threw the cat among the pigeons and made it very hard to ignore.
I think part of the reason for Mendes/Ronaldo looking at Madrid now is that they may have recommended the tax lawyer who did the tidy up of Ronaldo's finances in 2015. The wikileaks papers were probably stolen/hacked from that lawyer's office.
So basically what you're saying Perez can not do anything now except a public backing of Ronaldo?
I don't see how Ronaldo wanting to leave Spain is "Using MUFC". And even fans seem to buy this argument, though there is no indication from CR7 or his representatives or Man Utd about any such transfer. Most of it is media rumour and wishful thinking on part of Utd fans.
I'm just leaving rumour as is for the most part. Lets see on the developments. If Ronaldo still wants to leave come August I may start taking it more seriously. Although in saying that I'd love it if he came back but its a pipe dream at this point.
I am not saying you are doing it, but all this media talk about "using MUFC", "Utd made fools again by Cristiano" all to be really irritating. CR leaving Real or feeling sad and disappointed or getting stomach upset in Spain has got nothing to do with Utd.
I know you weren't lad!
He probably can, that's why Messi got caught and Ronaldo had to go through the whole leak thing before being investigated. In the long term he could have something to say in this, but if its like some media have reported saving Ronaldo could expose Perez.
The master move of the last week was announcing that he wanted to leave, basically the tax thing got 2 days of talk, and since news of Ronaldo's possible departure broke almost no one talks about the alleged fraud, I think is just a PR ruse to stir the conversation and front pages from crucifying him
Cat's out of the bag and nothing will make it go away now. I think Perez might have enough influence to get a friendly judge in charge, or at least one he can pressure into getting the sentence he(Flo) wants for Cris
@jojojo iirc the accusations involve tax fraud between 2011-2014...?
@jojojo iirc the accusations involve tax fraud between 2011-2014...?
That's corruption.
Yes, I'm aware of it
I think that's right. 2009 he was not tax resident in Spain, so he was only liable to Spanish tax at 25% on Spanish earnings. 2010-2014 he had the Beckham law status, that more or less continued that non-resident status. His declaration in 2015 (covering 2014) included a lot of money that should have been declared in those earlier years. The tax office probably can't do anything about 2010 because there's a time limit on how far back an investigation can go from when it officially starts.
It looks like a lastminute attempt to legalise his Spanish earnings at the 25% rate before becoming tax resident. It's significant because the following year not only would he be paying the normal top tax rate of 45/50% he would also have to declare all his foreign assets, and potentially have to explain to the tax office where they came from.
The final element and the most dangerous one on the face of it is that he also declared the sale of his future image rights to Peter Lim. Again taking advantage of the 25% tax rule. That's where timing and wording of the contracts and the tax declaration become the stuff that tax offices and tax lawyers will fight out to the last comma, fullstop and post-it note stuck on a printout of an email.
The crunch is that he/Mendes probably didn't plan for him to become tax resident in Spain - not many players survive that long at Madrid. Things that were legal to do at the correct time, became very dodgy when done in a rush just before his special tax status ran out.
i've read he's also being accused of trying to hide money by rerouting it through a fiscal paradise(british virgin islands) via a phantom company
And now all the medias are saying he will refuse to settle out of court and wants to prove his innocence, which means almost certainly that Perez will start pulling strings for him
The precedent of Xabi and Mascherano implies a lot in this regard
And now all the medias are saying he will refuse to settle out of court and wants to prove his innocence, which means almost certainly that Perez will start pulling strings for him
The precedent of Xabi and Mascherano implies a lot in this regard
Nobody wants to pay more than they have to, it's not rocket science
"Do it legally, please" should be par the course yet is not.
And frankly, why not pay more than you have to? You are absolutely loaded for generations to come. Give some back to society.
It's "a bit" more complicated than that, it's hardly much of a surprise that there are differences in opinions on what they are legally allowed to do. Ronaldo&Co will obviously claim that they have paid what they are required to pay, Spanish government will claim that there's income in Spain that he should've paid taxes for.
Do you pay more taxes than you have to ?
This is open to interpretation. That is the problem here.
That is an insane standard to hold a single person to. From the global corporations who avoid tax to the tradesmen who do a few nixers off the book, no one wants to pay more tax to the government but suddenly Ronaldo should. Nonsense.
He does give back to society outside of tax as well. As does Messi.
I am not so much commenting on Ronaldo with that as I am on people's attitudes towards the rich and the acknowledgement of unrestrained greed as being only natural and to be expected, no matter how disproportionate sums we are talking about.
It is also natural to want to contribute to society and not think only of oneself when one has more than plenty to contribute with no real less to one's own lifestyle. This seems to never be expected though. The filthy rich have it well with this kind of mentality.
Should have paid his taxes then.
Most likely, as I haven't hired someone to lower it as much as possible and reach into the gray zones of the law.
But even if I pay the absolute minimum, these would be money I would be able to spend. Messi and ronaldo will never spend those millions they've saved up. They do this just to have more.
Unless your income is in the £100k+ zone, it's not all that interesting.
Well, bot of them are spending £10million+ just on cars, not to mention their mansions and general holiday budgets...
You're wrong.
People at a base level only think of themselves. Nobody is selfless no matter how much whiter than white they claim to be.
We're all indoctrinated to believe money is power and money is great so the more of it you earn and the more you can get away with not giving to other people the better because we're all selfish feckers at heart.
There are 7 billion people on the planet and I bet not even 10% actively give back and contribute to society because they actually want to do that. Charity is great and every single one of us should be more charitable and give back to help our fellow human beings out but we don't hence why there's so much inequality in the world and in such massive extremes too. Charity is not a natural thing, taking your ball and going home definitely is.
The very fact that we have such a lackadaisical attitude to rich people/corporations dodging tax shows that we'd do exactly the same if we were in their position.
Yeah they won't spend it if they live in £100pw shared room and drive 1990s Audi.
Christ on a bike.
On the one hand, you dismiss my contribution as being too small to be interesting.
Then in your next breath, argue for how cheating millionaires might legitimately spend their money on mansions, cars, etc. Besides the ones they already own. C. Ronaldo has an estimated net worth of $400m. He'll never have to dip into those 15m.
I think you must simply be infatuated with the rich to develop this kind of sympathy for them.
Satan on a treadmill.
You missed the point. Unless you make a shitload of money, there's feck all reason to hire someone to look into how you can trim down your taxes. You'd most likely spend more money on hiring someone than you would actually save in tax expenses.
Regarding your next point. It's somewhat amusing that you think it's a clever argument that "it's money you can actually spend", but you don't think the argument is valid for millionaires. Why is it valid for you but not for them ?
It's a pretty amusing double standard all over.
It's said that someone snitched in 2014 that he(Mendes) was being investigated by corruption and later he tried to fix his situation.
According to AS, Modric and Bale will be the next.All the players that came from England and didn't inform Hacienda about these companies abroad.
According to AS, Modric and Bale will be the next.All the players that came from England and didn't inform Hacienda about these companies abroad.
Maybe Ronaldo will be found guilty, maybe not, all in all that's for a court of law to decide. I've seen a journalist already jumping on the band waggon and without giving the man the benefit of a doubt, he called him this or that. No need to wait for an actual verdict, new world, i guess.
Well, i'm happy that Ronaldo isn't a person who gives in to bullies and decided to take action, which resulted in taking it to court, despite his employer telling him otherwise. As far as i understand the complex situation, he paid his taxes for his image rights fully after UK law. I really think Ronaldo is a decent person, hopefully he can prove his innocence and sue the people who already call him a criminal. If he's found guilty, he has to pay dues, but i don't think Ronaldo made any mistakes.
In the end, we could be talking about a legal precedent: If he loses millions could be at stake for footballers, Spanish government would have hit the jackpot, but otherwise tables could turn and footballers would come after the Spanish government. But that's a bit early to tell, we'll have to wait.
Good read!
http://gestifute.com/following-the-public-prosecutor-complaint/?lang=en
Well, i'm happy that Ronaldo isn't a person who gives in to bullies and decided to take action, which resulted in taking it to court, despite his employer telling him otherwise. As far as i understand the complex situation, he paid his taxes for his image rights fully after UK law. I really think Ronaldo is a decent person, hopefully he can prove his innocence and sue the people who already call him a criminal. If he's found guilty, he has to pay dues, but i don't think Ronaldo made any mistakes.
In the end, we could be talking about a legal precedent: If he loses millions could be at stake for footballers, Spanish government would have hit the jackpot, but otherwise tables could turn and footballers would come after the Spanish government. But that's a bit early to tell, we'll have to wait.
Good read!
http://gestifute.com/following-the-public-prosecutor-complaint/?lang=en