SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

[11101]

What's the explanation for it? I can't imagine you'd find much evidence that there are more "idiots" in the UK in a general sense than most comparable nations, so what's leading to such different behaviour?

I don't blame the government necessarily, but it doesn't seem a big leap to think it's directly related to the confused messaging from the government. How many other countries have an incident like Boris Johnson and his "I shake everyone's hands" at any point in the pandemic, never mind right at the beginning? I imagine every country has had some public official skipping out on lockdown measures briefly, but that brazen attitude combined with his comments at the time seemed pretty unique. That was quickly followed by the UK government explicitly following a different approach to its neighbours in the early stages, only to flip flop and demonstrably pay for it.

Maybe every country has an equal number of people that look for an excuse to exploit those inconsistencies, "misunderstandings" and whatnot, and the UK just happened to hand it to them? As time goes on, adherence is going to slip for everyone, decades of research on all kinds of adherence to personal and public health measures show that, and all you need is those two things combined to get these examples.

I think it's both.

I've lived overseas long enough to realise us British are far more similar to the average American than we'd like to think, and certainly far more similar to them than any of our European neighbours. The entitlement and envy stands out. We believe we are better than others and we know better than those in authority.

But yes, our government has not helped. Here in Italy, where rules are never simple, the rules were simple. 1. Don't go out anywhere, then it became 2. Go out but always wear a mask, and then 3. Go out but wear a mask indoors. You wouldn't have a hope at summarising the UK rules in 3 bullet points.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

What's the explanation for it? I can't imagine you'd find much evidence that there are more "idiots" in the UK in a general sense than most comparable nations, so what's leading to such different behaviour?

I don't blame the government necessarily, but it doesn't seem a big leap to think it's directly related to the confused messaging from the government. How many other countries have an incident like Boris Johnson and his "I shake everyone's hands" at any point in the pandemic, never mind right at the beginning? I imagine every country has had some public official skipping out on lockdown measures briefly, but that brazen attitude combined with his comments at the time seemed pretty unique. That was quickly followed by the UK government explicitly following a different approach to its neighbours in the early stages, only to flip flop and demonstrably pay for it.

Maybe every country has an equal number of people that look for an excuse to exploit those inconsistencies, "misunderstandings" and whatnot, and the UK just happened to hand it to them? As time goes on, adherence is going to slip for everyone, decades of research on all kinds of adherence to personal and public health measures show that, and all you need is those two things combined to get these examples.

Edit: I'd add that I've got friends in Spain and Germany who suggest big parties are much more common there than in the UK at the moment, it just isn't getting the same intention because there's not the same kind of generational in-fighting and blame games, and the climate and areas make it easier to do this further out of cities. And there's been reports from locals in here of music festivals and the rest going ahead as relatively normal in their countries. Very few examples of young people across the globe managing to reject that need for large social group connection. It is socially programmed into them in a way it isn't for older generations, given education structures and the culture that built around them.

On a very basic level, I don’t think young people in other countries have the same culture of going to pubs and getting absolutely wrecked then spilling out into the streets at closing time to eat kebabs, flirt and fight. Partly down to differences in licensing laws and partly down to the fact that drinking 10 pints every Friday night just isn’t something that happens in many other countries.

I actually do kind of agree with the Sun headline here (shock, horror) Forcing everyone out of pubs/bars at the same time was alway going to create crowd scenes on the streets. I also think it will increase the number of post-pub house-parties.

 

[Brwned]

I think it's both.

I've lived overseas long enough to realise us British are far more similar to the average American than we'd like to think, and certainly far more similar to them than any of our European neighbours. The entitlement and envy stands out. We believe we are better than others and we know better than those in authority.

But yes, our government has not helped. Here in Italy, where rules are never simple, the rules were simple. 1. Don't go out anywhere, then it became 2. Go out but always wear a mask, and then 3. Go out but wear a mask indoors. You wouldn't have a hope at summarising the UK rules in 3 bullet points.

Yeah, I'd agree with that.

What's the view from the other side of the ideological spectrum, @finneh? Why are we seeing more examples of this from folks in the UK? Is it because they value their freedom more, reject autocracy, and are more able to make informed risk decisions on a person-by-person basis? Drinking in excess just to cope with the fears?

 

[Brwned]

On a very basic level, I don’t think young people in other countries have the same culture of going to pubs and getting absolutely wrecked then spilling out into the streets at closing time to eat kebabs, flirt and fight. Partly down to differences in licensing laws and partly down to the fact that drinking 10 pints every Friday night just isn’t something that happens in many other countries.

I actually do kind of agree with the Sun headline here (shock, horror) Forcing everyone out of pubs/bars at the same time was alway going to create crowd scenes on the streets. I also think it will increase the number of post-pub house-parties.

You hear this a lot from people in the UK and Ireland, and on holidays abroad the evidence seems plain to see, but over the last few years I've found quite a few countries in Central and Eastern Europe where locals drink a lot more than I'd thought, and not much differently to UK and Ireland. I've not looked into it much but as an example

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...more-often-than-35-other-nations-survey-finds

The headline is dramatic but drinking 1.1 times a year more often than the average Canadian or American sounds a lot less dramatic. I don't know where, say, Belgium, Czech Republic or Russia fit into that spectrum, but I'd be surprised if its world's apart.

Maybe excessive binge drinking is where the UK really stand out, but I'd be interested to see the evidence for it. I've been in villages in countries where alcohol is prohibited but it's widely known by locals that the one semi pub they have there, all the men go there most nights of the week, get on the lash, get aggressive, rinse and repeat. So I'm a bit more sceptical of the reputation now as things look a bit different under the surface. It's something that Brits and Irish folks have embraced as part of their culture, while others don't acknowledge it, but the differences seem relatively small.

In any case I agree this was a predictable outcome. I'm pretty sure I'd have followed suit as I was firmly following in the footsteps of my peers at that age, with missing eyebrows at 18 in Sunny Beach to show for it! Wonder what the original decision makers expected.

 

[lynchie]

There's a big freshers-week effect at the moment. Just look at the areas with very high numbers of cases, and they tend to be the University areas. Freshers week has a long history of being a massive piss-up - potentially the first time living alone for most of these kids - and most of them feel like they're invincible anyway. I'd be hopeful that the surge in Universities will burn out in a few weeks, in the same way freshers flu tends to be generally cleared up by the end of October. Just have to hope it doesn't spread too far into the rest of the local population.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

You hear this a lot from people in the UK and Ireland, and on holidays abroad the evidence seems plain to see, but over the last few years I've found quite a few countries in Central and Eastern Europe where locals drink a lot more than I'd thought, and not much differently to UK and Ireland. I've not looked into it much but as an example

"Drinkers in the UK get drunk more than any other nation in the world, findings from a global survey suggest.

Britons reported getting drunk an average of 51.1 times in a 12-month period – almost once a week – the report featuring 36 countries found.

On average, respondents said they got drunk 33 times in the last year. This number was 50 times in the US and 48 times in Canada. The rate was much lower in countries such as Chile, where they got drunk 16 times a year."

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...more-often-than-35-other-nations-survey-finds

The headline is dramatic but drinking 1.1 times a year more often than the average Canadian or American sounds a lot less dramatic. I don't know where, say, Belgium, Czech Republic or Russia fit into that spectrum, but I'd be surprised if its world's apart.

Maybe excessive binge drinking is where the UK really stand out, but I'd be interested to see the evidence for it. I've been in villages in countries where alcohol is prohibited but it's widely known by locals that the one semi pub they have there, all the men go there most nights of the week, get on the lash, get aggressive, rinse and repeat. So I'm a bit more sceptical of the reputation now as things look a bit different under the surface.

My only frame of reference is with central/western European countries. So it’s definitely possible the streets of, say, Warsaw are exactly the same as Uk city streets every Friday/Saturday night. My own experience is also biased by mainly visiting capital cities. It’s the smaller towns/cities in the UK that you’re most likely to find gangs of absolutely plastered young men/women. London, not so much. So maybe the night life in Paris, Madrid, Rome, Berlin, Amsterdam, Brussels etc doesn’t accurately reflect what’s going on in smaller towns? Because in those big cities when you do see an extremely pissed up crowd of young people wandering around late at night they’re more likely to be British (or Irish) than local!

 

[Vidyoyo]

Not sure that can explain the country differences though. They sufferered a lot from austerity in Spain too, they were in a more precarious economic position pre pandemic, and they have more people in the more at risk jobs (e.g. Tourism) who already over-index on economic insecurity at the best of times.

Tourism might be a big difference. We don't have this implied feeling that different regions in the UK add to the collective economy, which I assume is probably more pronounced in Spain. I don't feel qualified to pass judgement beyond this though as I've no experience living there.

In any case with the drinking culture, perhaps it's worth looking at what fuels it? Obviously Britain is known for being quite repressed and generally having a culture that revolves around drinking for people to open up and feel comfortable (quite a basic human need when you think about it).

There's a lot to say about its removal being more problematic than we might think. Yes other countries drink (perhaps more) but maybe the basic reasons for why Brits drink (both socially and to excess) differs a lot from other countries, except perhaps Eastern Europe.

Basically, given how ingrained habits are, it seems politicians were really naïve believing people would change over night. You can't strip the wall and be happy with the results without replacing it with a fresh colour of paint. As of yet, we haven't actually replaced what we do with anything positive.

This also seems to be a factor with students. Take away the fun part of being a student and you realise that the lifestyle is actually fairly depressing. Living in small cramped dorms miles away from family paying £9k a year isn't much fun at all without the usual benefits. Cue their angst (I don't blame them).

P.s. I'm thinking aloud here. Sorry if any of this seems irrelevant.

 

[Brwned]

My only frame of reference is with central/western European countries. So it’s definitely possible the streets of, say, Warsaw are exactly the same as Uk city streets every Friday/Saturday night. My own experience is also biased by mainly visiting capital cities. It’s the smaller towns/cities in the UK that you’re most likely to find gangs of absolutely plastered young men/women. London, not so much. So maybe the night life in Paris, Madrid, Rome, Berlin, Amsterdam, Brussels etc doesn’t accurately reflect what’s going on in smaller towns? Because in those big cities when you do see an extremely pissed up crowd of young people wandering around late at night they’re more likely to be British (or Irish) than local!

Probably true on both counts! I'd imagine part of the reason you don't see so many locals partying in their country's tourists hubs is precisely because there's so many British and Irish folks crammed into there already - if they're in the city, they're surely not in the tourist hotspots! In Europe I'm thinking of places like Hamburg where you'd have a load of locals drinking and smoking indoors into the wee hours of the morning, in pubs that look a bit like your mate's living room. But you'd easily miss them if you didn't have a local or someone who spoke the language because while they're on main streets, they're below ground level and don't remotely advertise that they're even open to the public.

Tourism might be a big difference. We don't have this implied feeling that different regions in the UK add to the collective economy, which I assume is probably more pronounced in Spain. I don't feel qualified to pass judgement beyond this though as I've no experience living there.

In any case with the drinking culture, perhaps it's worth looking at what fuels it? Obviously Britain is known for being quite repressed and generally having a culture that revolves around drinking for people to open up and feel comfortable (quite a basic human need when you think about it).

There's a lot to say about its removal being more problematic than we might think. Yes other countries drink (perhaps more) but maybe the basic reasons for why Brits drink (both socially and to excess) differs a lot from other countries, except perhaps Eastern Europe.

Basically, given how ingrained habits are, it seems politicians were really naïve believing people would change over night. You can't strip the wall and be happy with the results without replacing it with a fresh colour of paint. As of yet, we haven't actually replaced what we do with anything positive.

This also seems to be a factor with students. Take away the fun part of being a student and you realise that the lifestyle is actually fairly depressing. Living in small cramped dorms miles away from family paying £9k a year isn't much fun at all without the usual benefits. Cue their angst (I don't blame them).

P.s. I'm thinking aloud here. Sorry if any of this seems irrelevant.

Makes sense to me! Honestly I can't imagine university without a social life. And while I didn't think much about the fees then, my wee bro is very conscious of the £9k, and I reckon it would build a lot of resentment too.

I'd agree with @F-Red (I think) in that if I was in their situation, I'd probably have taken the year off. Educationally I don't think it would make a huge difference, there'd be some teething pains but it's do-able. But my uni experience was almost entirely defined by figuring out what independence was and meeting new people all the time, in spontaneous events often with a complete disregard for my own personal safety and a sole focus on having a bit of craic. I'd like to think I'd consider the risks of spreading covid to be a bit different to the risks of yet another night of alcohol poisoning, but I can't think of many moments when I considered the bigger picture at that age. Otherwise I'd probably have realised drinking a pint of jaegermeister mixed with vodka in about a minute might lead me into some dangerous situations!

That's not blaming the students, but I do think the situation they've found themselves in wasn't entirely unpredictable, and the idea they're being unlawfully imprisoned and all that is a tad dramatic. If I was in their position I'd just get someone to chuck up some LSD and weed through the window and have a cracking time.

 

[VeevaVee]

Just heard on the news that Boris had to apologise for saying the new rules wrong. They then had to clarify whether people are allowed to meet in a pub beer garden or sit outside a cafe, and their clarification was that the gov is ‘advising against it’.

They couldn’t fecking run a bath. This should be the simple stuff.

 

[lynchie]

Just heard on the news that Boris had to apologise for saying the new rules wrong. They then had to clarify whether people are allowed to meet in a pub beer garden or sit outside a cafe, and their clarification was that the gov is ‘advising against it’.

They couldn’t fecking run a bath. This should be the simple stuff.

It depends where you live, with a bunch of random bits of rules across different areas. I *think* that in the north-east it's illegal to meet up in a pub, but in greater manchester it's advised against, and then in Bolton the pubs have to be closed completely, despite higher rates of infection elsewhere.

edit: just checked, and I'm definitely wrong, but not sure what exactly is correct.

 

[finneh]

Yeah, I'd agree with that.

What's the view from the other side of the ideological spectrum, @finneh? Why are we seeing more examples of this from folks in the UK? Is it because they value their freedom more, reject autocracy, and are more able to make informed risk decisions on a person-by-person basis? Drinking in excess just to cope with the fears?

Aren't there more EU countries experiencing a "UK style" wave at the moment than aren't?

The likes of France, Spain, Ireland, Netherlands, Croatia, Austria, Denmark, Belgium etc?

In truth I imagine the fact is we see more of these examples as a result of English media being more mainstream and consumable. I can't recall many posts of Croation news articles in this thread for example.

The UK in my view have been surprisingly very compliant, with obvious exceptions. If someone had have explained the measures over the last 6 months I'd have assumed widespread levels of non-compliance and civil disobedience. Hell to turn it around I'd have assumed a death rate of maybe 5% across all age groups indiscriminately if someone had described the restrictions combined with compliance levels.

 

[Brwned]

Aren't there more EU countries experiencing a "UK style" wave at the moment than aren't?

The likes of France, Spain, Ireland, Netherlands, Croatia, Austria, Denmark, Belgium etc?

In truth I imagine the fact is we see more of these examples as a result of English media being more mainstream and consumable. I can't recall many posts of Croation news articles in this thread for example.

The UK in my view have been surprisingly very compliant, with obvious exceptions. If someone had have explained the measures over the last 6 months I'd have assumed widespread levels of non-compliance and civil disobedience. Hell to turn it around I'd have assumed a death rate of maybe 5% across all age groups indiscriminately if someone had described the restrictions combined with compliance levels.

This is true. Either the other countries in a similar situation are doing the same things and we don't see it reported in our little bubble, or they're "misbehaving" in a way folks in the UK aren't which is the source of their own growth. It's entirely possible these outdoor street parties that people enjoy sneering at in here make for bad photos but make little difference to the spread, based on all the research about outdoor transmission. As it gets colder and they universally turn into house parties, then you've got a problem...

 

[11101]

Aren't there more EU countries experiencing a "UK style" wave at the moment than aren't?

The likes of France, Spain, Ireland, Netherlands, Croatia, Austria, Denmark, Belgium etc?

In truth I imagine the fact is we see more of these examples as a result of English media being more mainstream and consumable. I can't recall many posts of Croation news articles in this thread for example.

The UK in my view have been surprisingly very compliant, with obvious exceptions. If someone had have explained the measures over the last 6 months I'd have assumed widespread levels of non-compliance and civil disobedience. Hell to turn it around I'd have assumed a death rate of maybe 5% across all age groups indiscriminately if someone had described the restrictions combined with compliance levels.

I wouldn't go as far as suggesting that this behaviour in the UK is driving more cases, but there is definitely not the same level of disobedience and idiocy in those other countries you mention.

I can't speak for all countries but I know Switzerland as well as I know Italy, and have been to France recently. The reason their cases are going up is easy. They don't have any rules anymore (or didn't until recently). In both countries you could walk around and go anywhere without any precautions. The UK had rules, but people didn't follow them.

 

[redshaw]

Aren't there more EU countries experiencing a "UK style" wave at the moment than aren't?

The likes of France, Spain, Ireland, Netherlands, Croatia, Austria, Denmark, Belgium etc?

In truth I imagine the fact is we see more of these examples as a result of English media being more mainstream and consumable. I can't recall many posts of Croation news articles in this thread for example.

The UK in my view have been surprisingly very compliant, with obvious exceptions. If someone had have explained the measures over the last 6 months I'd have assumed widespread levels of non-compliance and civil disobedience. Hell to turn it around I'd have assumed a death rate of maybe 5% across all age groups indiscriminately if someone had described the restrictions combined with compliance levels.

Bigger and similar outbreaks in EU countries.

It's more what to do with drinking brits spilling out of pubs that started the discussion. I don't think anyone said other countries are fine, some are doing much worse right now. There's not the loutish behavior to consider as much in other countries when imposing a 10pm shut time or at least that is the thought.

No-one offers a solution though, do we close pubs completely, open as usual, close at 9-10-11pm like other countries? Everyone is so quick to point to what other countries are doing and we should copy but now it's wrong, other countries are doing local lockdown and restrictions but now this is wrong.

 

[finneh]

I wouldn't go as far as suggesting that this behaviour in the UK is driving more cases, but there is definitely not the same level of disobedience and idiocy in those other countries you mention.

I can't speak for all countries but I know Switzerland as well as I know Italy, and have been to France recently. The reason their cases are going up is easy. They don't have any rules anymore (or didn't until recently). In both countries you could walk around and go anywhere without any precautions. The UK had rules, but people didn't follow them.

Again I'd have to see more than anecdotal evidence to conclude that the case increases that are similar across a dozen EU countries are driven by idiots in the UK; compared with rule relaxations in the others.

Especially as rules have been regularly relaxed in the UK as well up until very recently.

I suspect the harshness of lockdown is a big factor which you somewhat allude to in your "lack of rules" comment. The collective sigh or relief after being allowed out after being locked down in a harsh manner for months is always going to cause people to push the boundaries; irrespective of what those boundaries are.

Overall it's too multi faceted to point to any single issue or any piece of anecdotal evidence. My view is harshness of lockdown was a significant contributing factor; although Italy was very harsh and seem to have things under control so it isn't clear and evidential. There will also be dozens of other factors that could be put into an algorithm that no doubt include obedience of population, whether they've experienced "new" viruses before, general culture in terms of greetings/handshaking/drinking etc; as well as numerous factors you wouldn't even think about.

 

[SambaBoy]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[Berbaclass]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Wow

 

[Hanks]

On a very basic level, I don’t think young people in other countries have the same culture of going to pubs and getting absolutely wrecked then spilling out into the streets at closing time to eat kebabs, flirt and fight. Partly down to differences in licensing laws and partly down to the fact that drinking 10 pints every Friday night just isn’t something that happens in many other countries.

I actually do kind of agree with the Sun headline here (shock, horror) Forcing everyone out of pubs/bars at the same time was alway going to create crowd scenes on the streets. I also think it will increase the number of post-pub house-parties.

Can't talk for other countries, but I've never seen Polish night clubs and bar fullers and livelier than the last couple of months.

This past weekend, the clubs were packed like a sardine pack by midnight and last call was 5am, and then the line for Kebab of course. People were still ordering shots at the bar by 4am and the dance floor was 80% full. This is not a Polish/British/Russian/Italian thing...this is being in your 20s and wanting to live like a person in their 20s.

I feel as some Brits have a thing for putting themselves down and always pointing to others as superior examples, similar to some mothers who put their kids under psychological torture by pointing how others his age are so much better than him.

and for the record, I really don't like most of the type of British tourists who come here and how they act here, thank f*** I don't live in Krakow.

 

[esmufc07]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

You have to laugh or you'll cry

 

[redshaw]

UK 7143 cases and 71 deaths

Getting Spain like by the week.

 

[Berbaclass]

UK 7143 cases and 71 deaths

Getting Spain like by the week.

Fecking hell

 

[Santos J]

UK 7143 cases and 71 deaths

Getting Spain like by the week.

Fecking hell. Imagine we'll see places closing again next week, pubs/cinemas etc at least anyway.

 

[Port Vale Devil]

Fecking hell. Imagine we'll see places closing again next week, pubs/cinemas etc at least anyway.

Hospitality is fecked in the UK for now. Too many idiots around to be trusted to be sensible. The government are a shambles but the population needs to take some of the blame.

Some pubs around here were jam packed after lockdown with no social distancing while others have done a good job and will be punished unfairly. We should have come down harder on the places that were not controlling their customers from the start with closures and heavy fines.

 

[esmufc07]

UK 7143 cases and 71 deaths
Very worrying but not at all surprising.

 

[golden_blunder]

UK 7143 cases and 71 deaths

Getting Spain like by the week.

Wow

 

[africanspur]

Can't talk for other countries, but I've never seen Polish night clubs and bar fullers and livelier than the last couple of months.

This past weekend, the clubs were packed like a sardine pack by midnight and last call was 5am, and then the line for Kebab of course. People were still ordering shots at the bar by 4am and the dance floor was 80% full. This is not a Polish/British/Russian/Italian thing...this is being in your 20s and wanting to live like a person in their 20s.

I feel as some Brits have a thing for putting themselves down and always pointing to others as superior examples, similar to some mothers who put their kids under psychological torture by pointing how others his age are so much better than him.

and for the record, I really don't like most of the type of British tourists who come here and how they act here, thank f*** I don't live in Krakow.

I do agree with this to be honest.

I think there's a few reasons for it and have found the discussions on it in the last page and a bit interesting. Certainly most of the posters on here are British (or Irish) and so there will be a tendency to focus and concentrate on the UK. Perhaps on the current events section of Marseillecafe or PSGcafe, they're also cursing Macron and talking about how irresponsible their young people are. Most of the posters on here also lean towards the 'left side of the political spectrum' and so pretty much anything the government does is seen through the prism of it being terrible. Lots of pent up anger and bitterness still about Brexit too I'd say, which makes sticking in a boot vs the Tories or Brits (really the English specifically) quite tempting for many...and I'm not going to pretend I haven't engaged in some of this myself. And you're right, some Brits who just put themselves/ the country down at seemingly almost any opportunity.

I've said quite a few times on here that the government's response has been shambolic almost since day 1 but its interesting for me now that the criticism is still as severe on here, for literally every single decision made, even when those decisions match the ones made by governments on continental Europe (see closing pubs at 10pm for instance). Even that somehow becomes a crutch to kick the government/ general population with. I find it particularly strange because there are very valid and quite horrible things they're doing (the shocking failures of track and trace, the flagrant corruption of some of their deals etc) to focus on instead.

I think if an alien landed on Earth now, heard about this pandemic and happened to come on here for a read, they'd be forgiven for thinking the UK was almost uniquely badly affected in Europe, especially when it comes to this second wave. As opposed to the number of cases (and restrictions being brought back in) for a number of countries in Western/ Northern/Southern and Eastern Europe.

 

[africanspur]

For what its worth, I see people have been talking for a while about the lag between cases going up and hospitalisations. Well...we're definitely seeing more and more patients coming into hospital with it now, more and more patients on a ventilator again and younger people coming back in with it now.

 

[groovyalbert]

UK 7143 cases and 71 deaths

Getting Spain like by the week.

And that's with a larger delay on daily mortality rates right?

It would be interesting to see the demographics/locations in more detail, but hard to see how hospitality sector is kept open much longer.

Reckon we're not far away from the "Christmas will be cancelled if..." messaging.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

I do agree with this to be honest.

I think there's a few reasons for it and have found the discussions on it in the last page and a bit interesting. Certainly most of the posters on here are British (or Irish) and so there will be a tendency to focus and concentrate on the UK. Perhaps on the current events section of Marseillecafe or PSGcafe, they're also cursing Macron and talking about how irresponsible their young people are. Most of the posters on here also lean towards the 'left side of the political spectrum' and so pretty much anything the government does is seen through the prism of it being terrible. Lots of pent up anger and bitterness still about Brexit too I'd say, which makes sticking in a boot vs the Tories or Brits (really the English specifically) quite tempting for many...and I'm not going to pretend I haven't engaged in some of this myself. And you're right, some Brits who just put themselves/ the country down at seemingly almost any opportunity.

I've said quite a few times on here that the government's response has been shambolic almost since day 1 but its interesting for me now that the criticism is still as severe on here, for literally every single decision made, even when those decisions match the ones made by governments on continental Europe (see closing pubs at 10pm for instance). Even that somehow becomes a crutch to kick the government/ general population with. I find it particularly strange because there are very valid and quite horrible things they're doing (the shocking failures of track and trace, the flagrant corruption of some of their deals etc) to focus on instead.

I think if an alien landed on Earth now, heard about this pandemic and happened to come on here for a read, they'd be forgiven for thinking the UK was almost uniquely badly affected in Europe, especially when it comes to this second wave. As opposed to the number of cases (and restrictions being brought back in) for a number of countries in Western/ Northern/Southern and Eastern Europe.

Doesn't the UK have the highest number of deaths in Europe? Combined with the biggest shrink in GDP?

 

[africanspur]

Doesn't the UK have the highest number of deaths in Europe? Combined with the biggest shrink in GDP?

Yes, on both counts.

What relevance does that have to what I've written?

 

[Utdstar01]

This is just going to keep on happening until a vaccine is found. What's the solution? We can't just keep shutting everything down every 3 months.

 

[bazalini]

UK 7143 cases and 71 deaths

Getting Spain like by the week.

Wowsers

 

[africanspur]

This is just going to keep on happening until a vaccine is found. What's the solution? We can't just keep shutting everything down every 3 months.

The solution is/was to get testing/ tracking up and running in an efficient way when we had a relative period of downtime.

Seems the UK may have squandered this opportunity and, from the outside, quite a few other European countries have sadly done the same.

 

[bazalini]

This is just going to keep on happening until a vaccine is found. What's the solution? We can't just keep shutting everything down every 3 months.

You are being optimistic saying three months imo.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I do agree with this to be honest.

I think there's a few reasons for it and have found the discussions on it in the last page and a bit interesting. Certainly most of the posters on here are British (or Irish) and so there will be a tendency to focus and concentrate on the UK. Perhaps on the current events section of Marseillecafe or PSGcafe, they're also cursing Macron and talking about how irresponsible their young people are. Most of the posters on here also lean towards the 'left side of the political spectrum' and so pretty much anything the government does is seen through the prism of it being terrible. Lots of pent up anger and bitterness still about Brexit too I'd say, which makes sticking in a boot vs the Tories or Brits (really the English specifically) quite tempting for many...and I'm not going to pretend I haven't engaged in some of this myself. And you're right, some Brits who just put themselves/ the country down at seemingly almost any opportunity.

I've said quite a few times on here that the government's response has been shambolic almost since day 1 but its interesting for me now that the criticism is still as severe on here, for literally every single decision made, even when those decisions match the ones made by governments on continental Europe (see closing pubs at 10pm for instance). Even that somehow becomes a crutch to kick the government/ general population with. I find it particularly strange because there are very valid and quite horrible things they're doing (the shocking failures of track and trace, the flagrant corruption of some of their deals etc) to focus on instead.

I think if an alien landed on Earth now, heard about this pandemic and happened to come on here for a read, they'd be forgiven for thinking the UK was almost uniquely badly affected in Europe, especially when it comes to this second wave. As opposed to the number of cases (and restrictions being brought back in) for a number of countries in Western/ Northern/Southern and Eastern Europe.

Good post. I’m only close to the UK/Ireland experience but I would imagine every country currently experiencing a surge (and which European country isn’t experiencing a surge?!) is going through the same blame game you describe. And the target for your blame will be entirely based on your age/politics.

Middle aged conservatives are furious about reckless youth, while younger lefties blame it all on the Tories. With conspiracy nutters and small state libertarians blaming it on anyone in a position of power. Trying to be objective is difficult but it looks as though it’s incredibly hard to get any of this right. It’s an unsolvable problem where the balance between viral spread vs economic ruin is a nightmare to get right.

 

[F-Red]

I'd agree with @F-Red (I think) in that if I was in their situation, I'd probably have taken the year off. Educationally I don't think it would make a huge difference, there'd be some teething pains but it's do-able. But my uni experience was almost entirely defined by figuring out what independence was and meeting new people all the time, in spontaneous events often with a complete disregard for my own personal safety and a sole focus on having a bit of craic. I'd like to think I'd consider the risks of spreading covid to be a bit different to the risks of yet another night of alcohol poisoning, but I can't think of many moments when I considered the bigger picture at that age. Otherwise I'd probably have realised drinking a pint of jaegermeister mixed with vodka in about a minute might lead me into some dangerous situations!

That's not blaming the students, but I do think the situation they've found themselves in wasn't entirely unpredictable, and the idea they're being unlawfully imprisoned and all that is a tad dramatic. If I was in their position I'd just get someone to chuck up some LSD and weed through the window and have a cracking time.

Agree. Some perspective is required as well where we have some 2.3-2.4 million in higher education, and a situation of c1700-2000 people being in 'lockdown'.

 

[Raoul]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[Hernandez - BFA]

Our sister hospital has “closed its doors” on any new admissions for the next 2 weeks because of a huge outbreak of COVID there that isn’t manageable. There is 70 confirmed cases of COVID there now.

So they’ve shut their Emergency Department (still open for walks in for those that can be treated for issues that can be dealt with and then discharge home - like an ankle injury) and they will defer all ambulances to the nearby hospitals.

Meaning my hospital’s Emergency’s Department will become extra busy for the foreseeable future as it now covers a wider range of area.

 

[Dancfc]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

How the feck is this even allowed? Surely there should be a programme to get food to people who are stuck? Even if it's just the basics to keep going.

Utterly outrageous, and we wonder why people strip the shelves in a panic!

 

[africanspur]

Good post. I’m only close to the UK/Ireland experience but I would imagine every country currently experiencing a surge (and which European country isn’t experiencing a surge?!) is going through the same blame game you describe. And the target for your blame will be entirely based on your age/politics.

Middle aged conservatives are furious about reckless youth, while younger lefties blame it all on the Tories. With conspiracy nutters and small state libertarians blaming it on anyone in a position of power. Trying to be objective is difficult but it looks as though it’s incredibly hard to get any of this right. It’s an unsolvable problem where the balance between viral spread vs economic ruin is a nightmare to get right.

Ha so true! My wife's parents (live in the Netherlands) were just saying how their cases spike are caused by reckless youths.

Was it pexbo who said you can tell what someone is going to post on this thread as soon as you've read their username? Its so true and also very true when it comes to the inevitable blame game for what we're going through.

I must admit though, I feel incredibly sorry for these kids. 18 years old and end up getting locked in, from a university experience that is already truncated. Really feel for them.