SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness or memes please)

Revan

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Yeah, we're doing a great job of it at the moment [sarcasm off]
To be fair, China and South Korea were much better prepared for this, and were waiting for this to happen since SARS (in case of Korea they also had the experience of MERS which was even more terrifying than SARS). The US did feck all until March, pretending that if we all think that the problem will go away, it will go away. Saying that, the US has the ability to mobilize much faster than most countries (just look at the testing how it went from close to 0 to more than 100k/day in a space of a week) so in the end, producing a shitload of masks would be trivial if there is a strong incentive to do so.
 

JPRouve

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It was a ridiculous message that contradicts itself, wearing masks isn't a useful guard, but please make sure the healthcare professionals have them available to guard against the virus. So which is it?
Both. Healthcare professionals have to spend several hours everyday in close proximity to contaminated patients, they need masks and all the gears possible to limit contamination in an highly risky environment. You and I don't spend several hours in that environment and it's relatively easy to drastically reduce risks, wash your hands often with soap, keep your distances with people that aren't from your household.
 

Carolina Red

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It was a ridiculous message that contradicts itself, wearing masks isn't a useful guard, but please make sure the healthcare professionals have them available to guard against the virus. So which is it?
I've already said that is a false dilemma.

There are so many other items of protective equipment and protective procedures that medical workers wear and take in addition to wearing the n95. The mask is part of a larger system.
 

Revan

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It was a ridiculous message that contradicts itself, wearing masks isn't a useful guard, but please make sure the healthcare professionals have them available to guard against the virus. So which is it?
The doctors were obviously trying to not spread the virus to sick patients.
 

Cal?

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Both. Healthcare professionals have to spend several hours everyday in close proximity to contaminated patients, they need masks and all the gears possible to limit contamination in an highly risky environment. You and I don't spend several hours in that environment and it's relatively easy to drastically reduce risks, wash your hands often with soap, keep your distances with people that aren't from your household.
Agreed, but they're better off saying that, "Please don't hoard masks so that healthcare professionals can get them", rather than the stupid line of "they don't work, but the professionals need them".
 

0le

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None. The problem is that there is a shortage of them (cause wester governments did feck all for 2 months), so in the last few weeks they had to do propaganda how masks do not help, or make things even worse. I can understand that point of view (to ensure that doctors and nurses stay protected), but it was obviously a lie.
A lot of the science was not propaganda. You are very mistaken if you think that is the case. Again, no one disputes that the effectiveness of [appropriate] masks to prevent the inhalation of droplets and the spread of droplets from infected individuals. The issues of debate are (A) the dispersion and settling properties of the droplets and (B) the biological aspects of how just how significant is transmission by droplets. With regards to (A), I have a background in this field, which is why I can tell you it wasn't propaganda. With regards to (B), this is what I have seen in news articles.

It was a ridiculous message that contradicts itself, wearing masks isn't a useful guard, but please make sure the healthcare professionals have them available to guard against the virus. So which is it?
Doctors/nurses/carers/other NHS hospital staff are continually exposed to infected individuals so they do need full PPE. The public have far less exposure because the country is in lockdown. As already explained above, average joe in the public may not wear the mask correctly. So the current thinking is not to recommend the mask for the general public. Whether you agree with that advice or not is your opinion of course, but the two cases are certainly not contradictory.
 

Revan

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Both. Healthcare professionals have to spend several hours everyday in close proximity to contaminated patients, they need masks and all the gears possible to limit contamination in an highly risky environment. You and I don't spend several hours in that environment and it's relatively easy to drastically reduce risks, wash your hands often with soap, keep your distances with people that aren't from your household.
Sure. But wearing the mask further reduces the possibility of getting infected, and even more importantly, it reduces the possibility of you infecting others. It definitely does not put you even more at risk, unless you start licking the mask when you remove it.

Now, obviously, if it is between me and a doctor wearing a mask, of course, that the doctor should be prioritized. But masks are such an easy thing to be produced, and since January it was known that we will reach this stage. So countries should have been prepared to have masks for everyone.
 

Cal?

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I've already said that is a false dilemma.

There are so many other items of protective equipment and protective procedures that medical workers wear and take in addition to wearing the n95. The mask is part of a larger system.
Of course, but the point remains that it's better to tell people the truth (refer to above post).
The doctors were obviously trying to not spread the virus to sick patients.
:lol:
 

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Its open. People inside. England's f*cked.
 

Revan

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A lot of the science was not propaganda. You are very mistaken if you think that is the case. Again, no one disputes that the effectiveness of [appropriate] masks to prevent the inhalation of droplets and the spread of droplets from infected individuals. The issues of debate are (A) the dispersion and settling properties of the droplets and (B) the biological aspects of how just how significant is transmission by droplets. With regards to (A), I have a background in this field, which is why I can tell you it wasn't propaganda. With regards to (B), this is what I have seen in news articles.



Doctors/nurses/carers/other NHS hospital staff are continually exposed to infected individuals so they do need full PPE. The public have far less exposure because the country is in lockdown. As already explained above, average joe in the public may not wear the mask correctly. So the current thinking is not to recommend the mask for the general public. Whether you agree with that advice or not is your opinion of course, but the two cases are certainly not contradictory.
Another thing mentioned all the time. I mean, reading stuff, it seems that you might need a couple of PhDs to put a fecking mask on your face. I wonder how extensive training did Korea and China so that everyone can wear masks there. I assume, they stopped everything and put every citizen in a 5-year university degree called 'how to wear a mask'.
 

0le

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But masks are such an easy thing to be produced
I genuinely don't know, are they? Do we have sufficient raw materials do produce them on a daily basis, ensure they are delivered and implemented correctly (by giving the public the appropriate training)? Carolina posted the good article that you can clean disposable masks under some very specific set of circumstances, but to industrialise this process also has a timescale, and you also need the public to return their masks (many won't). If you factor all that in, it seems quite difficult rather than easy?
 

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Sure. But wearing the mask further reduces the possibility of getting infected, and even more importantly, it reduces the possibility of you infecting others. It definitely does not put you even more at risk, unless you start licking the mask when you remove it.

Now, obviously, if it is between me and a doctor wearing a mask, of course, that the doctor should be prioritized. But masks are such an easy thing to be produced, and since January it was known that we will reach this stage. So countries should have been prepared to have masks for everyone.
Can’t disagree with this. I’ve looked for masks and it’s like searching for rocking horse shit.
 

Carolina Red

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Of course, but the point remains that it's better to tell people the truth (refer to above post).
What exactly does the "truth" mean to you in this instance? Because to me, the "truth" would be "you'll need to wear PPE and follow proper procedure for this to be effective"... and since people who arent' trained to do this won't, then saying it isn't effective is the truth.
 

Cal?

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Doctors/nurses/carers/other NHS hospital staff are continually exposed to infected individuals so they do need full PPE. The public have far less exposure because the country is in lockdown. As already explained above, average joe in the public may not wear the mask correctly. So the current thinking is not to recommend the mask for the general public. Whether you agree with that advice or not is your opinion of course, but the two cases are certainly not contradictory.
I'm not saying medical professionals shouldn't be prioritized.

I've yet to seen anyone saying wearing a masks incorrectly is worse than not wearing one at all, as long as you don't start licking it like @Revan pointed out.

Also, how difficult is it to wear and dispose of one correctly? I'm sure any government can knock up a video in no time.
 

0le

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Another thing mentioned all the time. I mean, reading stuff, it seems that you might need a couple of PhDs to put a fecking mask on your face. I wonder how extensive training did Korea and China so that everyone can wear masks there. I assume, they stopped everything and put every citizen in a 5-year university degree called 'how to wear a mask'.
There really is no need for a condescending tone. People generally don't follow advice, follow advice poorly or simply ignore advice. The best example is the current president of the USA.
 

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Another thing mentioned all the time. I mean, reading stuff, it seems that you might need a couple of PhDs to put a fecking mask on your face. I wonder how extensive training did Korea and China so that everyone can wear masks there. I assume, they stopped everything and put every citizen in a 5-year university degree called 'how to wear a mask'.
Who says the mask thing is what worked for South Korea and China, as opposed to the other incredibly strict measures? As much as I enjoy a good bit of sarcasm, it misses the mark here.
 

Cal?

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What exactly does the "truth" mean to you in this instance? Because to me, the "truth" would be "you'll need to wear PPE and follow proper procedure for this to be effective"... and since people who arent' trained to do this won't, then saying it isn't effective is the truth.
See below, basically what I wanted to say
Another thing mentioned all the time. I mean, reading stuff, it seems that you might need a couple of PhDs to put a fecking mask on your face. I wonder how extensive training did Korea and China so that everyone can wear masks there. I assume, they stopped everything and put every citizen in a 5-year university degree called 'how to wear a mask'.
 

Revan

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I genuinely don't know, are they? Do we have sufficient raw materials do produce them on a daily basis, ensure they are delivered and implemented correctly (by giving the public the appropriate training)? Carolina posted the good article that you can clean disposable masks under some very specific set of circumstances, but to industrialise this process also has a timescale, and you also need the public to return their masks (many won't). If you factor all that in, it seems quite difficult rather than easy?
Considering that other countries, which are significantly less rich than the US seem to be able to do so, I guess so. Obviously, we cannot wake a day and say, 'ah, today we change the policy, let's make masks for everyone', but if the problem was looked seriously since January, then we would have been in a much better state. At the end of the day, it is a mask, not rocket science.

And of course, the masks sold for the general public do not need to be as good as those used by doctors (who are at a far higher risk). They do not need to offer 99% protection or close by. They just need to offer some protection and still be combined with social distancing to achieve a higher effect of mitigation. No one is saying, everyone wears a mask and then life goes on as usual.
 

Carolina Red

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I've yet to seen anyone saying wearing a masks incorrectly is worse than not wearing one at all, as long as you don't start licking it like @Revan pointed out.
Are you for real right now or at this point just shit posting?

Wearing it incorrectly is worse than not wearing it at all, because not only are you not doing jack shit to protect yourself, but you are also wasting a mask that could have been worn by a medical professional who will actually use it correctly.

And licking the mask... ha ha ha. Touching the mask, then touching something else or someone and now that thing or that person is contaminated. But yeah, funny joke.
 

Cal?

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Who says the mask thing is what worked for South Korea and China, as opposed to the other incredibly strict measures? As much as I enjoy a good bit of sarcasm, it misses the mark here.
I don't think Korea ever implemented any measures any stricter than most of Europe right now.

As for China, I've no idea whatsoever with that one - have they actually contained it at 80k-ish? :confused:
 

JPRouve

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Agreed, but they're better off saying that, "Please don't hoard masks so that healthcare professionals can get them", rather than the stupid line of "they don't work, but the professionals need them".
Again it's not what people are telling you, masks usefulness is limited because they depend entirely on how someone acts in general. No one tells you that they don't "work", they simply have a limited usefulness that is greatly reduced by the actions of the person using them.

Sure. But wearing the mask further reduces the possibility of getting infected, and even more importantly, it reduces the possibility of you infecting others. It definitely does not put you even more at risk, unless you start licking the mask when you remove it.

Now, obviously, if it is between me and a doctor wearing a mask, of course, that the doctor should be prioritized. But masks are such an easy thing to be produced, and since January it was known that we will reach this stage. So countries should have been prepared to have masks for everyone.
As anyone suggested that using a mask increase the risks? I'm pretty sure that anyone with a bit of common sense simply said that the usefulness was limited for almost everyone. It's very useful if you have a cold or have Covid-19 though, in that case you should definitely wear one particularly inside.
 

0le

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I'm not saying medical professionals shouldn't be prioritized.

I've yet to seen anyone saying wearing a masks incorrectly is worse than not wearing one at all, as long as you don't start licking it like @Revan pointed out.

Also, how difficult is it to wear and dispose of one correctly? I'm sure any government can knock up a video in no time.
Wearing a surgical mask does little to prevent you from inhaling droplets. This means it could be worse than not wearing one at all if people change their behaviour because they start thinking they are "protected".

With regards to the secnd point honestly, it is relatively simple depending on the mask. A person can do all these things. People on the other hand don't listen, don't follow advice well or simple ignore it! :D
 

Revan

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Who says the mask thing is what worked for South Korea and China, as opposed to the other incredibly strict measures? As much as I enjoy a good bit of sarcasm, it misses the mark here.
Well, the equivalent of Fauci in South Korea said so. There should be an interview in this thread posted a couple of days ago.

South Korea actually had less strict measures than the US and most of Europe. They didn't have a lockdown at all. Probably comparable to the measures of Sweden/Holland, but combined with everyone wearing masks, massive checks on fever, and large-scale testing combined with individual quarantines and contact-tracing. They did not shut down the country, and yet, they have done a far better job than any Western countries. And if that doctor is to be believed, masks are the main difference.
 

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I don't think Korea ever implemented any measures any stricter than most of Europe right now.
Right...

Emergency texts from the government alerting citizens of nearby cases of coronavirus infection. A government-mandated GPS-tracking app designed to monitor and punish people who break quarantine. Public government reports detailing the whereabouts of every single confirmed patient—down to which theater seat they sat in, which plastic surgery clinic they visited and even where they got their lingerie.

All these examples are part of a sweeping tracking infrastructure erected by the South Korean government to contain the largest coronavirus outbreak outside of mainland China.

https://www.lawfareblog.com/lessons-america-how-south-korean-authorities-used-law-fight-coronavirus
 

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Masks are pointless for the public in general, people just being idiots. You need to have a certain grade of mask, and then you need to know how to actually wear it. Wearing it and then taking it off with grubby hands and using it again later is absolutely a waste of time. Half the people take them off when talking, defeats the object.
 

Cal?

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Are you for real right now or at this point just shit posting?

Wearing it incorrectly is worse than not wearing it at all, because not only are you not doing jack shit to protect yourself, but you are also wasting a mask that could have been worn by a medical professional who will actually use it correctly.

And licking the mask... ha ha ha. Touching the mask, then touching something else or someone and now that thing or that person is contaminated. But yeah, funny joke.
Again, I've never questioned the fact that medical professional should be prioritized. But it shouldn't be that difficult to increase supply.

As for wearing it incorrectly being worse than not wearing one at all? Seriously?

What are the most obvious cases of masks being worn incorrectly?

1 The wrong side is facing in/out
2. It doesn't cover the nose

Not exactly difficult to educate people to do those 2 simple things right.
 

Carolina Red

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Again, I've never questioned the fact that medical professional should be prioritized. But it shouldn't be that difficult to increase supply.

As for wearing it incorrectly being worse than not wearing one at all? Seriously?

What are the most obvious cases of masks being worn incorrectly?

1 The wrong side is facing in/out
2. It doesn't cover the nose

Not exactly difficult to educate people to do those 2 simple things right.
Yeah, well, you're wrong... but on the bright side, you've shown absolutely no ability to recognize that fact.
 

Cal?

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Right...

Emergency texts from the government alerting citizens of nearby cases of coronavirus infection. A government-mandated GPS-tracking app designed to monitor and punish people who break quarantine. Public government reports detailing the whereabouts of every single confirmed patient—down to which theater seat they sat in, which plastic surgery clinic they visited and even where they got their lingerie.

All these examples are part of a sweeping tracking infrastructure erected by the South Korean government to contain the largest coronavirus outbreak outside of mainland China.

https://www.lawfareblog.com/lessons-america-how-south-korean-authorities-used-law-fight-coronavirus
Seems Revan keeps posting what I wanted to say. The main thing being there wasn't a widescale lockdown at all
Well, the equivalent of Fauci in South Korea said so. There should be an interview in this thread posted a couple of days ago.

South Korea actually had less strict measures than the US and most of Europe. They didn't have a lockdown at all. Probably comparable to the measures of Sweden/Holland, but combined with everyone wearing masks, massive checks on fever, and large-scale testing combined with individual quarantines and contact-tracing. They did not shut down the country, and yet, they have done a far better job than any Western countries. And if that doctor is to be believed, masks are the main difference.
 

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Are you for real right now or at this point just shit posting?

Wearing it incorrectly is worse than not wearing it at all, because not only are you not doing jack shit to protect yourself, but you are also wasting a mask that could have been worn by a medical professional who will actually use it correctly.

And licking the mask... ha ha ha. Touching the mask, then touching something else or someone and now that thing or that person is contaminated. But yeah, funny joke.
I take it you haven’t interacted with Cal before? You should discuss Messi and Ronaldo with him. Will make your life complete.
 

Cal?

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Yeah, well, you're wrong... but on the bright side, you've shown absolutely no ability to recognize that fact.
You seem completely incapable to see that the hard numbers in most east Asian countries clearly point to the fact that masks work.

Even the WHO have changed their view on this.
 
Revan talking to himself

Revan

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Another thing mentioned all the time. I mean, reading stuff, it seems that you might need a couple of PhDs to put a fecking mask on your face. I wonder how extensive training did Korea and China so that everyone can wear masks there. I assume, they stopped everything and put every citizen in a 5-year university degree called 'how to wear a mask'.
But it is such a ridiculous thing to say in the first place, right? Let's not wear masks because we do not know how to wear them, only the trained people know how to do it.

The reality is:
1) To offer 99% protection (when working with ill patients), you really need to know how to wear it. Because you are in close contact with them, so even a small gap, can make a big difference.
2) When you are in the supermarket shopping, you do not actually need to know how to wear them. You are still keeping social distancing, the mask essentially is just another layer of social distancing. It keeps you from touching the face, if you cough, you cough inside the mask, and if someone coughs, there is a high possibility that some/most of droplets will get stuck in the mask instead of getting into your mouth/nose (and when we are there, use glasses too to protect the eyes). This is better than no protection, it obviously won't give you the same protection as to doctors/nurses, but you do not need it in the first place.

What they said instead was: unless you are a pro, you must not wear a mask, cause you do not know how to do it, and you will make more harm than good. So, wear a scarf instead.

As anyone suggested that using a mask increase the risks? I'm pretty sure that anyone with a bit of common sense simply said that the usefulness was limited for almost everyone. It's very useful if you have a cold or have Covid-19 though, in that case you should definitely wear one particularly inside.
Yes, plenty of time. We saw doctors saying that 'you peasants do not know in what we have to go to wear them', we saw countless people from state officials, to people in twitter, to people here saying that we do not know how to wear masks, so we will do more harm than good by doing so.

It is all a type of propaganda cause the governments miserably failed in ensuring a solid production of masks that will make them available to everyone. So, obviously, saying that 'they protect you to some degree, but doctors need them more, so do not use them' would not have worked with most people, so instead they had to spread lies and misinformation in order to ensure that doctors/nurses have enough masks. Which probably is the right thing to do, they need them far more than us, and they are far more important than us (if I get sick, I'll stay home for 2 weeks, if a doctor gets sick, he also stays home for 2 weeks, but then 100 patients who are really sick cannot get the needed treatment). But the real right thing would have been to increase the production.
 

0le

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You seem completely incapable to see that the hard numbers in most east Asian countries clearly point to the fact that masks work.

Even the WHO have changed their view on this.
Considering that other countries, which are significantly less rich than the US seem to be able to do so, I guess so. Obviously, we cannot wake a day and say, 'ah, today we change the policy, let's make masks for everyone', but if the problem was looked seriously since January, then we would have been in a much better state. At the end of the day, it is a mask, not rocket science.

And of course, the masks sold for the general public do not need to be as good as those used by doctors (who are at a far higher risk). They do not need to offer 99% protection or close by. They just need to offer some protection and still be combined with social distancing to achieve a higher effect of mitigation. No one is saying, everyone wears a mask and then life goes on as usual.
It's really tiring debating these issues with both of you. You both seem to be taking the extreme view here, rather than a pragmatic one.
 

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Well, the equivalent of Fauci in South Korea said so. There should be an interview in this thread posted a couple of days ago.

South Korea actually had less strict measures than the US and most of Europe. They didn't have a lockdown at all. Probably comparable to the measures of Sweden/Holland, but combined with everyone wearing masks, massive checks on fever, and large-scale testing combined with individual quarantines and contact-tracing. They did not shut down the country, and yet, they have done a far better job than any Western countries. And if that doctor is to be believed, masks are the main difference.
They had very strict monitoring using technology, and alerting people if they needed to be quarantined/had been in proximity with someone who had been infected. Caused a few privacy scandals, such as a notification going out about a business manager and his secretary who had been in China on a trip together.

We saw doctors saying that 'you peasants do not know in what we have to go to wear them', we saw countless people from state officials, to people in twitter, to people here saying that we do not know how to wear masks, so we will do more harm than good by doing so.

It is all a type of propaganda cause the governments miserably failed in ensuring a solid production of masks that will make them available to everyone.
Right, so when it's the "South Korean Fauci" saying masks are the most important thing, it's a strong expert opinion, but when others say it isn't, it's condescending propaganda.
 

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Haven't read every post about masks, so somebody might well have mentioned this already, but regardless of the efficiency, the masks are also used as a sign of responsibility in Asian countries, i.e. "I'm thinking of your well-being". Not wearing one is almost the same as walking around coughing in people's faces. Or so I've heard.
 

JPRouve

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You seem completely incapable to see that the hard numbers in most east Asian countries clearly point to the fact that masks work.

Even the WHO have changed their view on this.
The hard numbers aren't actually due to masks. If you use South Korea it's mainly down to a handful of relatively simple things, first they created an examination protocols that allows doctors to never be in contact with patients and patients to be separated from each others, they use consultations booths outside of hospitals, the other thing is that they are totally connected everyone and their contacts are easily traceable and have been traced, the last point is a culture of cleanliness, they quickly cleaned every sensible spots. All of that is based on their recent experiences with previous coronaviruses.