SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

[sammsky1]

CNN's Chris Cuomo talks about advice given to him by a pulmonary expert on how to fight Covid-19.
I love this advice: the key is to FIGHT. Don’t take the illness passively lying down.
Do everything you can to actively fight it: get up, stretch your torso, hold your breath for 10 seconds, breath deeply when it hurts, relentlessly push the fever down. Be desperate to beat this thing.
That’s the road to recovery.
https://edition.cnn.com/videos/medi...uomo-cpt-vpx.cnn/video/playlists/coronavirus/

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[Drawfull]

And without them sure you will go out with that pandemic...and bring your elderly with you too. All for freedom

Just block them. There are too many ignorant, uneducated and lazy people in this thread. The mods have fixed a lot but some are still being given airtime. They're just not worth it.

 

[do.ob]

It is not up to me to devise such a plan.
It is up to the world leaders to decide what should be done.

From my perspective, an investigation should be carried out to conclusively determine the precise cause and whether China was complicit.

In that eventuality, was China also at fault in hiding information from the WHO.

Subject to that, China should be taken to the International Court's and each country would make their case for damages.

It cannot be acceptable for China, subject to being at fault to not have to pay for the damages caused.

In the first instance, they should contribute to the funeral costs of those who died as a result of this virus.

Do you realize how many countries could theoretically make claims against the US and other western countries? Our world doesn't work like that. And even if it did, however much at fault China may be for getting this one rolling, you can't blame them for western countries being slow to react, for Trump calling it a hoax or Boris bragging about shaking hands.

 

[fergieisold]

As Benjamin Franklin once said;

‘They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.’

Even if that quote was what It seems it's bullshit and Franklin was dumb to say it.

 

[Drawfull]

Even if that quote was what It seems it's bullshit and Franklin was dumb to say it.

He should have used 'those' as the first word for, erm, starters.

 

[RobinLFC]

How long do you think mass gatherings will be banned for after lockdown is lifted? Personally I feel additional 3 months is minimum but most likely until the end of year for 100+ people events.

Agreed about events - if you cancel as organization, you're just following the others. If you let your event go ahead and it causes a new outbreak, it's bad PR forever and potentially even lawsuits, insurance issues, you name it. Even if it's allowed again, I can't see anyone taking the risk for the remainder of 2020.

How do you prevent a gathering of +100 people in a pub though? Constant surveillance and only a limited amount of people allowed in at the same time? Gonna need constant monitoring from the police, all around different countries. Hard to enforce imo.

 

[Penna]

How do the restrictions in Italy compare to the UK?

@Sassy Colin, much tighter. We can't travel at all outside of our district of residence, which isn't so bad if you are a resident of Rome, but not so good if you're registered to a village like we are. You can travel outside for work if you're still working, for medical emergencies and for other immediate situations of necessity. Other than that, you have to remain in your area as long as there is a shop selling basic essentials (which isn't much, really). All public outside spaces are closed off, even the benches in the village.

When you leave your house for anything, you have to carry ID and complete a form which gives every bit of your personal info and requires you to declare that you understand the law and the penalties, and the reason you're out of your home. If the police stop you and you don't have it or you're out for no proper reason, you'll get a big fine.

We have been told not to go out at all if possible and to limit our visits to the village shop to one a week. People cannot go out in pairs, only one adult at a time may be out of the house. You are supposed to stay very near your house if you need to take a dog out or have some outside time with your child - a lot of people don't have gardens, so that's very hard for them.

edit - and you have to wear a mask as soon as you step outside your home. I even wear one to take the rubbish to the bins.

 

[Shane88]

CNN's Chris Cuomo talks about advice given to him by a pulmonary expert on how to fight Covid-19.
I love this advice: the key is to FIGHT. Don’t take the illness passively lying down.
Do everything you can to actively fight it: get up, stretch your torso, hold your breath for 10 seconds, breath deeply when it hurts, relentlessly push the fever down. Be desperate to beat this thing.
That’s the road to recovery.
https://edition.cnn.com/videos/medi...uomo-cpt-vpx.cnn/video/playlists/coronavirus/

So this, more or less?

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

What has that got to do with the post.
The UK government says that it was talking action based upon the scientific advice.

It reads a lot like blame China for this and ignores the convention that it is a country's job to protect its own citizens and no one else's.

No country placed any significant travel restrictions on Chinese nationals until March.

No country implemented screening measures for travellers until March.

No country suggested their citizens had anything to worry about until March.

By then it was too late and here we are. People feel more comfortable blaming outsiders because it avoids criticism of their own.

It's easy to cry root cause and blame wet markets for this but that perspective ignores all of the subsequent failures of governments that should have been better prepared to deal with a potential pandemic orginating from that part of the world. Every single one of them failed.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Fears about the erosion of freedoms and civil liberties are generally very legitimate. It's therefore a shame that those who bring up these fears are so often unbearably tiresome.

It's one thing to point out that a lot of the restrictions we are currently experiencing would in normal times be deemed massively excessive and that we should be wary of the potential for them to be extended past the point where they are necessary.

It's another to woefully decry the loss of those liberties in the middle of the pandemic, pointing to the sort of restrictions that anyone with even an ounce of common sense or perspective would expect to be curtailed as a basic public health measure. It's such an unbelievably callow argument to make at a point when there are so many more pressing issues at stake.

100%. You also sense that they’ve all got massive lock-down boners over finally experiencing just a hint of what it actually means to have civil liberties curtailed, after spending years moaning about utterly trivial and/or hypothetical examples. They’re living the dream right now.

Another delicious irony is that they’ve completely stopped whining about big government now that so many people that previously didn’t need a safety net have ended up dependent on the state to keep food on the table, or to keep them alive if/when their number comes up.

The best is yet to come. State funded compulsory vaccination program. Watch them queue up like everyone else. Hehe.

 

[LazyRed-Ninja]

Even if that quote was what It seems it's bullshit and Franklin was dumb to say it.

Yes, one of the founding fathers of the United states is classified as ‘dumb’ by an unknown individual on a forum. Ok.

 

[sammsky1]

It reads a lot like blame China for this and ignores the convention that it is a country's job to protect its own citizens and no one else's.

No country placed any significant travel restrictions on Chinese nationals until March.

No country implemented screening measures for travellers until March.

No country suggested their citizens had anything to worry about until March.

By then it was too late and here we are. People feel more comfortable blaming outsiders because it avoids criticism of their own.

It's easy to cry root cause and blame wet markets for this but that perspective ignores all of the subsequent failures of governments that should have been better prepared to deal with a potential pandemic orginating from that part of the world. Every single one of them failed.

Agree with you on this, especially in western G20 nations. Why do you think that happened?

 

[Pagh Wraith]

The ones that think that their liberties are taken, could organize a massive demostration protesting to the government. All well packed and together, shoulder against shoulder and very sweaty

Lets see how it ends

Well, May 1st shall be interesting in that regard. Normally, there are rallies and mass demonstrations in all major cities. The unions have cancelled theirs but the autonomous left has been very vocal in opposing the lockdown and not accepting their liberties being taken away. They have called for a "Revolutionary Mayday" in Berlin and for everyone to take to the streets and not letting the state dictate by "authoritarian decree". This usually ends in violence, not helped by the (infamous) Berlin police who have already announced they will be taking strict action. Oh, and add a few Nazi groups to the mix who also want to protest. Should be fun.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Well, May 1st shall be interesting in that regard. Normally, there are rallies and mass demonstrations in all major cities. The unions have cancelled theirs but the autonomous left has been very vocal in opposing the lockdown and not accepting their liberties being taken away. They have called for a "Revolutionary Mayday" in Berlin and for everyone to take to the streets and not letting the state dictate by "authoritarian decree".

Idiots. The lot of them.

 

[Drawfull]

Well, May 1st shall be interesting in that regard. Normally, there are rallies and mass demonstrations in all major cities. The unions have cancelled theirs but the autonomous left has been very vocal in opposing the lockdown and not accepting their liberties being taken away. They have called for a "Revolutionary Mayday" in Berlin and for everyone to take to the streets and not letting the state dictate by "authoritarian decree".

You going?

 

[LazyRed-Ninja]

100%. You also sense that they’ve all got massive lock-down boners over finally experiencing just a hint of what it actually means to have civil liberties curtailed, after spending years moaning about utterly trivial and/or hypothetical examples. They’re living the dream right now.

Another delicious irony is that they’ve completely stopped whining about big government now that many of them have ended up completely dependent on the state to keep food on the table, or to keep them alive if/when their number comes up.

Wauw! The state making sure their citizens are fine during a crisis is such a privilege! Liberties have been compromised way before this pandemic. How about lobbyists who financially support politicans, for ‘favors’ and therefore compromising the essence of a ‘democracy’? How about big tech companies breaking privacy laws and influencing politics? There are many more examples, this lockdown, isnt the best example to give to claim that there are people who are ‘living their dream right now’.

 

[Carolina Red]

Yeah, i dont think you know what i think that quote means..

Surely, a conflict in regards to human rights (such as privacy) and the surveillance machine of big tech companies by default (because of their business model) isnt a new subject is it?

No, no, I really do know what it means and what it's from. He wrote that in a letter in 1755 in support of defense spending and taxation during the French & Indian War. The quote has been taken out of context and butchered by the internet.

The words appear originally in a 1755 letter that Franklin is presumed to have written on behalf of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the colonial governor during the French and Indian War. The letter was a salvo in a power struggle between the governor and the Assembly over funding for security on the frontier, one in which the Assembly wished to tax the lands of the Penn family, which ruled Pennsylvania from afar, to raise money for defense against French and Indian attacks. The governor kept vetoing the Assembly’s efforts at the behest of the family, which had appointed him.

So to start matters, Franklin was writing not as a subject being asked to cede his liberty to government, but in his capacity as a legislator being asked to renounce his power to tax lands notionally under his jurisdiction. In other words, the “essential liberty” to which Franklin referred was thus not what we would think of today as civil liberties but, rather, the right of self-governance of a legislature in the interests of collective security.

https://www.lawfareblog.com/what-ben-franklin-really-said

 

[fergieisold]

Thats not the point. The point was about any demonstration, not only during a pandemic.


Yes, one of the founding fathers of the United states is classified as ‘dumb’ by an unknown individual on a forum. Ok.

awwww, status got you all wrapped up! It's a dumb quote but I doubt it's even been highlighted in the right context anyway.

 

[Pagh Wraith]

You going?

Sure! Not sure on which side yet.

 

[4bars]

Thats not the point. The point was about any demonstration, not only during a pandemic.

And my point is that even if they would give you the freedom to protest and change the lockdown on the pandemic, you would stay home before risk you and your loved ones because of the pandemic. Because is common sense that you have to stay the feck home for the time being if you can afford it and your government helps you if you can't afford it

 

[Drawfull]

Sure! Not sure on which side yet.

You've a tricky decision to make. Mine's easy.

 

[Pagh Wraith]

You've a tricky decision to make. Mine's easy.

Just joking. I hate Berlin.

 

[Drawfull]

Just joking. I hate Berlin.

Bored. Please don't reply to me again.

 

[Buster15]

It reads a lot like blame China for this and ignores the convention that it is a country's job to protect its own citizens and no one else's.

No country placed any significant travel restrictions on Chinese nationals until March.

No country implemented screening measures for travellers until March.

No country suggested their citizens had anything to worry about until March.

By then it was too late and here we are. People feel more comfortable blaming outsiders because it avoids criticism of their own.

It's easy to cry root cause and blame wet markets for this but that perspective ignores all of the subsequent failures of governments that should have been better prepared to deal with a potential pandemic orginating from that part of the world. Every single one of them failed.

Ok. Understood.
It was probably inevitable that mistakes were made by individual governments when faced with an unprecedented pandemic on this scale.
And it has been acknowledged that we have a lot to learn from Germany for example.

But. That is not the cause of the problem is it.

What I am saying is that the cause needs to be determined and, should China be proven to be culpable, then China, should be made to pay for both the human and economic damage.

 

[Arruda]

So is this something being deployed in the COVID battle do you know? Or something that's maybe done for the young ones with a better chance?

I do not know much about critical care, but it's something that, when available, it's used to replace lung and heart function. A ventilator forces air into your lungs, so it replaces/supports the breathing function (the mechanical effort our muscles do) and also allows high concentrations of O2, up to 100%, to be delivered (this can also be done with an O2 mask, but in those the patient breathes normally and out of his own effort) at optimum pressure.

Now if the exchange of gases between lung and blood is compromised (damage to the alveolar membrane, lungs filled with fluid) the oxygenation of the blood doesn't happen anyway, even if you can pump air into the lungs (breathing). Pumping air into the lungs is also useless if the heart can't pump the blood throughout the body. Here enters this complex system of extra-corporeal oxygenation of the blood as a possible last resort. It only makes sense to use it if the loss of lung function (oxygenation, not breathing) or heart function is expected to be reversible, so it won't save someone with terminal heart failure, etc.

It can, where available, be used when this level of artificial life support is required to keep someone alive whilst the underlying causes are corrected. So it can be used in Covid-19, as in many other situations.

 

[sammsky1]

But. That is not the cause of the problem is it.
What I am saying is that the cause needs to be determined and, should China be proven to be culpable, then China, should be made to pay for both the human and economic damage.

Like UK/USA were 'made to pay' for launching a war in Iraq based upon totally false and made up pretences, which killed 500,000+ innocent people?

 

[LazyRed-Ninja]

No, no, I really do know what it means and what it's from. He wrote that in a letter in 1755 in support of defense spending and taxation during the French & Indian War. The quote has been taken out of context and butchered by the internet.


https://www.lawfareblog.com/what-ben-franklin-really-said

The writer of this blog Benjamin Wittes, is he an absolute authority on the interpretation of Benjamin Franklin’s documents? I can reference writers with ‘similair’ credentials who state the opposite. So who is guilty of confirmation bias here? And why? This is also an off topic dialogue now.

 

[4bars]

It reads a lot like blame China for this and ignores the convention that it is a country's job to protect its own citizens and no one else's.

No country placed any significant travel restrictions on Chinese nationals until March.

No country implemented screening measures for travellers until March.

No country suggested their citizens had anything to worry about until March.

By then it was too late and here we are. People feel more comfortable blaming outsiders because it avoids criticism of their own.

It's easy to cry root cause and blame wet markets for this but that perspective ignores all of the subsequent failures of governments that should have been better prepared to deal with a potential pandemic orginating from that part of the world. Every single one of them failed.

You are partially right IMO

But we live in an international community and if you rely on that, ask China how they see the virus and they downplay it (as some source, probably antichina) in fears that they would take the measures that you mention, they would have some sort of responsability if true?

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Agree with you on this, especially in G20 nations. What do you think that happened?

I've no idea. There's a culture of appeasement in international relations when it comes to China and this has been going on for some time, but the level of unpreparedness for this is staggering. We had two month's lead time to prepare just a little (i.e. ensuring we had enough PPE etc). Total failure.

Ok. Understood.
It was probably inevitable that mistakes were made by individual governments when faced with an unprecedented pandemic on this scale.
And it has been acknowledged that we have a lot to learn from Germany for example.

But. That is not the cause of the problem is it.

What I am saying is that the cause needs to be determined and, should China be proven to be culpable, then China, should be made to pay for both the human and economic damage.

What we are experiencing now will have a number of different root causes. I don't think any one nation will ever be found truly culpable for this. As noted, this is a collective failure. Every government seems to have fecked up badly. We knew what was happening in Wuhan, we knew the potential for spread and we should have assumed we were due a global pandemic. There's a lot of hubris in this one and I think it's the largest factor.

Germany has perhaps given some insight into how to treat patients but they have over 100k cases, too. They also failed.

 

[JMack1234]

And move the infection from one location to another. Engage brain

Say that out loud, consider the situation, and see if it still sounds as good as it did when you typed it.

Thing is, I actually don't disagree with a short and managed lockdown to give the NHS time to get what capacity it can. All I was trying to say is that it's a nonsense to try and pretend that lockdown is easy and isn't much of a sacrifice. It's a massive, huge, gigantic sacrifice that the vast vast majority of people in this country are making very admirably.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

You are partially right IMO

But we live in an international community and if you rely on that, ask China how they see the virus and they downplay it (as some source, probably antichina) in fears that they would take the measures that you mention, they would have some sort of responsability if true?

Disagree. It is England's responsibility to assess any situation and do its part to protect English citizens. Same for Canada, France, Italy, the USA etc. The minute you rely on any other nation for the safety of your own without someting like a bilateral agreement or treaty in place you've probably failed.

 

[Revan]

How long do you think mass gatherings will be banned for after lockdown is lifted? Personally I feel additional 3 months is minimum but most likely until the end of year for 100+ people events.

100+ until people get vaccinated, so end of next year IMO.

 

[Arruda]

What I am saying is that the cause needs to be determined and, should China be proven to be culpable, then China, should be made to pay for both the human and economic damage.

What about all those parts of the world which negligently ignored the loud warnings and roadmaps to solve the problem that China gave us and made the pandemic far far worse? This includes the entire world apart from a few Asian countries. Will they also pay for the human and economic damage? Who pays who then?

 

[Buster15]

Like UK/USA were 'made to pay' for launching a war in Iraq based upon totally false and made up pretences, which killed 500,000+ innocent people?

Completely different issue.
That was not a global pendemic was it.

 

[finneh]

To be clear, what businesses do you think should have been allowed remain open but were forced to close by the government?

Pubs? restaurants? clothes shops?

Be specific.

I think every business should be "allowed" to trade as in my view that's their right. I don't believe in government having the ability to destroy decades of someone's work and livelihood on a whim.

Could the government implore, persuade, plead and even offer to cover their losses if they close? Of course. I'd have no problem with the government offering to cover three months turnover and having companies sign up to the scheme on their own free will. However forcing them to close in my view is outrageous. Just like forcing people to close their businesses and sell their homes to build HS2 is outrageous.

Let me return a question: how deadly would a virus need to be for you to be comfortable in the government for example seizing all your assets (to pay for the NHS) and putting you in a quarantine camp for an indefinite period of time? How about merely locking you in your home for 10 weeks, giving you state issued rations and imprisoning you if you left? Both examples might seem absurd but being arrested for watching a sunset alone on a bench would have likewise seemed like lunacy 8 weeks ago.

 

[Revan]

@Sassy Colin, much tighter. We can't travel at all outside of our district of residence, which isn't so bad if you are a resident of Rome, but not so good if you're registered to a village like we are. You can travel outside for work if you're still working, for medical emergencies and for other immediate situations of necessity. Other than that, you have to remain in your area as long as there is a shop selling basic essentials (which isn't much, really). All public outside spaces are closed off, even the benches in the village.

When you leave your house for anything, you have to carry ID and complete a form which gives every bit of your personal info and requires you to declare that you understand the law and the penalties, and the reason you're out of your home. If the police stop you and you don't have it or you're out for no proper reason, you'll get a big fine.

We have been told not to go out at all if possible and to limit our visits to the village shop to one a week. People cannot go out in pairs, only one adult at a time may be out of the house. You are supposed to stay very near your house if you need to take a dog out or have some outside time with your child - a lot of people don't have gardens, so that's very hard for them.

edit - and you have to wear a mask as soon as you step outside your home. I even wear one to take the rubbish to the bins.

You are somewhere in the North, right?

I guess a lot depends on the region. My family lives in Veneto, and like you, they need an autocertificate to go anywhere. However, they can also go out for a walk, as long as it is within 200 meters of the house and are not near someone from another household. Which is still better than nothing.

They also have to use masks when going out. Though mask shortage is a thing, and the state provided a mask for every person (with the masks needed to be consistently changed, I am not sure if that is a good thing or not).

 

[JPRouve]

What we are experiencing now will have a number of different root causes. I don't think any one nation will ever be found truly culpable for this. As noted, this is a collective failure. Every government seems to have fecked up badly. We knew what was happening in Wuhan, we knew the potential for spread and we should have assumed we were due a global pandemic. There's a lot of hubris in this one and I think it's the largest factor.

Germany has perhaps given some insight into how to treat patients but they have over 100k cases, too. They also failed.

The only thing that should come out of this is that we all need each others, politicians need to stop acting like twats while civil servants need to cooperate with their foreign peers with more efficiency. But what will actually happen is nothing, fingers will be pointed and political leaders will act as if they were victims while we, the public, will stupidly take sides when we should batter them all.

 

[4bars]

Disagree. It is England's responsibility to assess any situation and do its part to protect English citizens. Same for Canada, France, Italy, the USA etc. The minute you rely on any other nation for the safety of your own without someting like a bilateral agreement or treaty in place you've probably failed.

I agree mostly in what you said, but is difficult to asses when the information is opaque or even misleading. Specially if you are a member of WHO (like China) adn the information should flow through them but this information is not correct.

But again, I agree to a certain extend

 

[Alabaster Codify7]

The only thing that should come out of this is that we all need each others, politicians need to stop acting like twats while civil servants need to cooperate with their foreign peers with more efficiency. But what will actually happen is nothing, fingers will be pointed and political leaders will act as if they were victims while we, the public, will stupidly take sides when we should batter them all.

This is 110% accurate. This is what will happen to a tee, no ifs or buts.
There will be finger-pointing, name calling at the 'weird foreigners' who caused this whole mess, then the same governments doing the name calling to get the public on their side will shake hands and make friends with the same 'foreigners' and everything will return to normal with the public bickering over which side they have taken. Just life after the other pandemics in recent memory. It will be considered a tragic event, nobody's government will accept that they made any mistakes, and that will be that.

 

[Buster15]

What about all those parts of the world which negligently ignored the loud warnings and roadmaps to solve the problem that China gave us and made the pandemic far far worse? This includes the entire world apart from a few Asian countries. Will they also pay for the human and economic damage? Who pays who then?

Who pays who?
The who that was the root cause of not just the virus but who allowed the virus to get out of their country's border.