Don’t know where that quote came from but I doubt that whoever wrote it figured that looking after ourselves first involved passing a potentially lethal virus onto the neighbours we are also supposed to look after.
SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)
- Thread starter Don't Kill Bill
- Start date
Don’t know where that quote came from but I doubt that whoever wrote it figured that looking after ourselves first involved passing a potentially lethal virus onto the neighbours we are also supposed to look after.
Ok Thatcher.
From 3-time PM who ideology is pretty mch unchallenged since the 80s. She clearly says what the *first* priority is. And if there is any significant problem caused by loss of income your course of action has been blessed by Thatcher herself.
That’s a fair post. Their are shades of grey here (there always is!) The scenario in the tweet was barn door covid symptoms but choosing to work rather than take statutory sick pay. If you could reasonably convince yourself you don’t have covid - and/or it’s very difficult to get tested - then the ethics are different. Obviously the elephant in the room here is a testing system that’s fit for purpose. Getting that right is even more important than fixing sick pay.
Ok, right. I can’t stand Thatcher so it’s good that you’re using her ideology as an example of what not to do.
Yeah, there will be those, obviously. How many though? Possibly not enough to cause huge numbers of issues.
There needs to be some proper government support for people to isolate though, rather than just threat of fines. Other countries have offered financial assistance to people in that situation, but then again, I've wanted the government to act on zero hour contracts for years and they just trot out the line that "lots of people like the convenience" . Never do they mention lots of people hate the insecurity and would rather have a real employment contract.
I mean if you woke up with mild cold symptoms and went to work then I’d understand but with a symptom that’s highly likely to be Covid-19 it’s a lot more questionable.
With the fine measures, they also announced that a £500 lump sum will be offered to those who need to isolate and will lose money as a result of not working, on benefits, or cannot do their job from home.
I do think covidiots who accidentally infect or even endanger others through their actions should face - essentially manslaughter charges. Slightly toned down manslaughter charges. A portion of the blame for the pandemic manslaughter charges. Or at least the threat of.
Right at the start of the pandemic - before lockdown - before restrictions - my friend was going out and about with some pretty severe COVID symptoms. I've not really looked at him the same way since. Selfish. Stupid.
That being said, the police in the UK lost a lot of respect at the start of the pandemic for their overzealous policing.
You act in the interests of the common good you selfish feck.
People may not stand her but her ideology won and has been in power since 1980, it is no surprise that people will act the way she thought they should. There is a direct link in believing in a society/not having people on the brink of poverty/providing a substantial safety net for testing positive vs the world as she helped make it, with the individual as king.
I don’t think the extreme of Thatcher’s position has ever been the reality in the UK on the ground. She would have privatised the NHS if she could, something which has very little support here.
Yes.
If you’ve had a positive test and been told to isolate yet still knowingly go out and risk spreading the disease and killing someone how is that any better morally than being drunk and then driving? Am I perhaps being too draconian in thinking if you’ve broken quarantine and a positive case is traced back to you then fines don’t cut it as a punishment? I’m not talking about just symptoms here - I mean an actual positive test.
It hasn’t though. Hence the NHS is going strong thirty years after she was ousted.
Not to mention that individualism predates Thatcher by hundreds (thousands?) of years. People have always been inclined to be selfish. It’s difficult to get individuals to think of the greater good and blaming Thatcher for that is a hell of a stretch.
To me if you knowingly go out and infect people (potentially killing them) isn’t that just manslaughter?
Oh. Well, I stand corrected. Shame that news got buried beneath the more negative stuff really. The strength of the messaging continues to be questionable in this case. I spend time on here most days reading through the posts, but had missed this announcement, so I'd imagine many more have too.
Yes
Went to take the test today as I returned from an area (Prague) last night which is deemed high-risk by my government. It's not enforced and also extremely unlikely that I caught the virus as I had spend the day outside but better to play by the rules. Test centre is at the airport and only open from 4 to 8 which I didn't know so ended up going twice. 
Results tomorrow.
Results tomorrow.Yes
Agreed. I guess for me the difference is that governments are meant to be the adults in the room.
I can also see how easy it would be to dismiss minor symptoms when you are only a paycheck away from financial pain (and in a few cases financial ruin/eviction etc). That many government's chaotic approach has made it harder for people to follow/believe advice hasn't helped. A lack of funding for people who should be isolating will always compound the problem.
Australia is starting ramping back the extra unemployment pay and Jobkeeper finds to business soon. Economically we have been doing ok considering with very encouraging unemployment figures recently. However, the government's plans to swap extra unemployment money and Jobkeeper spending for tax cuts for the well off and wealthy is Thatherite madness. Basically they are taking money away from unemployed people who spend everything and giving it to people like me who aren't anywhere as needy. Plus far far more to those who don't need it at all. A combination of moving to a flat tax rate with added trickle down economic nonsense.
Victoria seem to be under control with only 11 new cases yesterday. The worry is that testing rates are dropping which may make reducing restrictions riskier than it would seem. NSW only had 2 cases yesterday, 1 who arrived from overseas, but the worry is that the other case was a taxi driver who drove all over Sydney for about 8 days when he may have been infectious. Watch this space.
This again? Seriously? Never in billion years is it manslaughter. As in never ever ever would it be manslaughter. Unless you’ve been diagnosed with covid and you walk up to a 90 year old cancer sufferer and spit in their face. Anything else and it’s never ever going to be manslaughter.
Youve got @rcoobc saying people with Covid who infect others should be done for manslaughter but then moaning that police were over zealous in confronting people over breaking lockdown rules
Make ya mind up....
Correct.
Those criteria seem fair though? They will definitely capture anyone who would really struggle financially if the alternative was statutory sick pay.
I was actually wondering if a no questions asked £500 per positive test might be a good idea. It would definitely increase testing rates. But if you loosen the criteria too much you run the risk of chancers deliberately picking up the virus to get some easy money.
On balance, this seems like a really sensible initiative. I’d like to see something similar in Ireland.
There should be more looking into what Germany is doing as a major European nation compared with France, Spain and UK, we don't hear much about it. I'm reminded how Germany report today they're alarmed by France, a strong ally of theirs.
I tried to raise it in the first wave and proposed they got out in front of the virus with lots of testing. I read anecdotal info on other forums of the odd track and trace happening in Germany, remember it wasn't a big thing then in Europe and it seemed the limited tracing and large testing was key. They had many protests there with tens of thousands and allegedly people flouting the soft lockdown, it did seem the testing got those that had it, they took it seriously while others weren't.
Countries in question are doing more testing now than Germany was then and I would think much more tracing compared to what little Germany was doing in March April, even if not efficient as it could be it should be getting out in front. Germany still low on cases while France and Spain are in the 10-13k, deaths and hospitalizations rising, UK seemingly joining them soon. Cases in Netherlands and Belgium very high for the population. Could it be more to do with Germany just being more disciplined and organized as a society of people, living up to the stereotype, the rest of the busy western euro countries are doing way worse.
Mask wearing was said to be high in Spain and France and the key for east Asian nations yet cases have taken off. It's looking more like the people acting responsibly and remaining cautious is the main thing behind the mask. Japan wear masks too but they have little testing, oldest population, high concentration of people, 120 million. Experts have been waiting for it to explode there and in Hong Kong but it hasn't and you can't point to testing testing testing and super track and trace in Japan.
New York took an absolute pounding with 1600 per million dead. Their infection followed on quickly from western Europe due to travel links of the East coast tip of US and western Europe so it may rise again after western Europe's second wave is in full swing but they've been very low for a long time now like Italy, and are probably being cautious still just in the way it unfolded and how it's viewed, still scarred. Italy has seen a small rise yes but they like New York have been very low for such a long time.
I tried to raise it in the first wave and proposed they got out in front of the virus with lots of testing. I read anecdotal info on other forums of the odd track and trace happening in Germany, remember it wasn't a big thing then in Europe and it seemed the limited tracing and large testing was key. They had many protests there with tens of thousands and allegedly people flouting the soft lockdown, it did seem the testing got those that had it, they took it seriously while others weren't.
Countries in question are doing more testing now than Germany was then and I would think much more tracing compared to what little Germany was doing in March April, even if not efficient as it could be it should be getting out in front. Germany still low on cases while France and Spain are in the 10-13k, deaths and hospitalizations rising, UK seemingly joining them soon. Cases in Netherlands and Belgium very high for the population. Could it be more to do with Germany just being more disciplined and organized as a society of people, living up to the stereotype, the rest of the busy western euro countries are doing way worse.
Mask wearing was said to be high in Spain and France and the key for east Asian nations yet cases have taken off. It's looking more like the people acting responsibly and remaining cautious is the main thing behind the mask. Japan wear masks too but they have little testing, oldest population, high concentration of people, 120 million. Experts have been waiting for it to explode there and in Hong Kong but it hasn't and you can't point to testing testing testing and super track and trace in Japan.
New York took an absolute pounding with 1600 per million dead. Their infection followed on quickly from western Europe due to travel links of the East coast tip of US and western Europe so it may rise again after western Europe's second wave is in full swing but they've been very low for a long time now like Italy, and are probably being cautious still just in the way it unfolded and how it's viewed, still scarred. Italy has seen a small rise yes but they like New York have been very low for such a long time.
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I work for a German company. There are obviously regional (and individual) variations but yes, they really do live up to that stereotype. Give them a guideline and they will follow it to the letter.
Here’s some interesting/worrying news. My company offers the flu vaccine to all staff every year. This year it is only being offered to people who are >65/vulnerable. Because of a global supply shortage. Feck’s sake.
New York City is still highly restricted. For example they haven't allowed indoor dining at all still. They will open next week, I think, but only to 25% capacity.
I stayed in whilst waiting to book a test and waiting 24 hours for it but I know another person whom was asymptotic didn’t as he couldn’t really afford to, and because there was little availability on tests he just said -screw it and went to work.
It’s actually not all that conflicted. The way I see it, if you can afford, you should get out and about spending your money in local businesses as much as possible. Whether that’s coffee shops, restaurants whatever. So long as you do it as safely as possible (i.e. outdoors when you can, indoors for a short time, in small groups).
If we all did this and also stopped the really risky stuff, like heading back to someone’s house in a big group after the pub, then we’d have a good balance between keeping the economy ticking over while reducing viral spread. As they keep saying, this isn’t difficult. Just reduce your contacts. Meet fewer people this week than you were meeting every week last month. Which you can easily do while still being an active member of society.
Briefing under way by scientists with no politicians - i suspect they don't want politicians softening the message - I think they will call for shutdown of non essential things like bars and pubs - but no furlough this time to soften the blow. Government releasing briefs about "boris will consider new legislation if needed" while this briefing is going on makes me suspicious that they want to see how it lands with the public first.
That’s probably wishful thinking. Again, could be that I know a lot of morons but I know a lot of people who exactly do the things you just mentioned. Go out barbecues, meet up in large groups and basically do the exact opposite of what the gov is telling them to do.
People cannot be trusted imo. Yes, there is a minority who do a very good job at protecting themselves and others, but most just don't adhere to the rules, at least not strictly enough anyway.
Again, as I mentioned yesterday, I was walking past a pub in my village and I could hear it hundreds of meters away, it was that loud and when I walked past it, it was packed to the rafters, well the outside area was. That’s been happening since the pubs reopened and now we’re on the cusp of a second wave. It’s now time to shut the shit down whilst we have time.
Well they should furlough the staff that are in gig industry and in catering industry that much is clear. Where applicable, work should continue and no furlough obviously.
I know. It’s a dreadful fecking pity, it really is. Although I’m conscious that being much older and more anti-social than I once was, I find limiting my contacts very easy. If I was in my 20s again I could see myself cutting out my social life for a few weeks or a few months but I don’t think I could have gone a whole half a year without partying. So I don’t want to be too judgmental. It does mean we’re in trouble though.
Yeah, the demographics least affected by the virus itself are those who are generally most affected by the measures taken to prevent its spread.
I’m exactly the same. It’s easy for me now as I’ve become an introvert. I prefer staying in now and thus I have absolutely no problem following the rules. I wasn’t always like this mind. I do think we’re in trouble too though.
One thing about a demographic who find it the hardest but around where I’m from a group of nurses had a large gathering and subsequently spread COVID which resulted in multiple hospital deaths. If you’ve got health professionals who can’t adhere to the rules then you’re fighting a lost cause. I’m a proponent of giving people as little manoeuvre to feck things as possible. Thus, for me, more stringent lockdown rules should have always been in place.