Saudi Arabia FA interested in joining UEFA Champions League (Bloomberg)

[Iker Quesadillas]

I have no doubts that Saudi Arabia will conquer club football in a very short time. Much faster than City, PSG, Chelsea, Leipzig etc. ever did. All of which took more or less a decade. The SPL is not subject to any rules and can spend as much as it deems necessary to quickly create a top league.
And you don't need that much for it. If each Saudi team is only allowed to have 8 foreigners, it needs 144 players for the 18-club league. Of which about 30 top-class ones have already been bagged. I assume that in this transfer window they will easily make 20 more. You get the rest in the next 2-3 transfer windows.

I think first of all the 4 state clubs will be provided with high-quality players before the rest is slowly taken care of. It can't be in the league's interest if only 4 clubs are partially equipped with world-class players and the rest are completely declining in terms of quality. However, many of the small clubs already have well-known players who have played in the top European leagues.

I see absolutely no reason why the Saudis won't succeed with this. I wonder why they didn't do this sooner. Even if nobody in Europe will follow the Saudi League, there is still a huge market in the Arab world. About the size of Europe. And that's just the Arabs! What about the remaining 1.5 billion Muslims in the world who identify with Saudi Arabia like no other country in the world. And then there is the rest of Africa and especially Asia, which will be directly affected by the AFC and AC and will see their teams play against the star teams from Saudi Arabia in the Asian club competitions. That's what people want to see there.

Of course, you will initially invest a lot and buy overpriced, and have to pay incredibly high salaries. But that will not always be the case. And they will always have the net/gross advantage over the Europeans. Once the Saudis have laid the foundation for this and the league has reached a more professional level and the buying of all stars, which will no longer be necessary for marketing purposes, they will go to the source in South America and Africa and look for talent there to go fishing. Especially the African, and especially the Muslim players will prefer the Middle East over Europe.

Just as 20-30 years ago it was considered impossible to successfully build clubs like Chelsea or later City, for example, today there are doubts that a league would work. If you want, this even works with an entire continent. Imagine, all of a sudden the other oil-rich Arabs (UAE, Qatar, etc..) start doing the same thing as the Saudis. Immediately you have 3-4 top-class leagues with many well-armed top clubs competing for the AFC. Maybe then the Japanese and South Korean billionaires will start buying traditional local clubs and upgrading them massively. As I said, 144 players is not much. And it's not like they only invest in the premier league. They also massively upgrade the lower leagues. The infrastructure required for this is being set up. They commit manpower with the necessary knowledge, build sports centers, academies and soon the 1st division teams will also get completely new and modern stadiums.

The Saudis are here to stay, and with maximum success.

Zero chance this isn't a paid post.

 

[Demyanenko_square_jaw]

Kazakhstani and Israeli teams can qualify for the CL and neither Kazakhstan nor Israel are in Europe. Most of Turkey and Russia aren't in Europe either. Fenerbahce, a seasoned CL team, are an Asian team.

What's a non elitist/gatekeeping argument against this?

There's no universally agreed on complete seperation point between Asia and Europe, but Kazakhstan do have a small part of the country that fits into the Urals/Caspian/Greater Caucasus boundary definition that is often used. It seems the standard procedure for countries that can be deemed transcontinental (like Turkey, Russia) is they can apply to the suitable confederations of their choice. Soviet Union was in uefa and when it split up, most if not all the newly independent nations that were not commonly accepted as fully geographically European had the initial choice to remain uefa (not sure if that applied to most of the 'stans though). Kazakhstan went to AFC with all of the other newly independent central asian nations, but switched to uefa in early '00s. I can remember Uzbekistan also wanted to join back then, but they ended up staying, perhaps because they couldn't offer a geographical reason for inclusion, and the ex-ussr status no longer held merit given they already made a choice a decade earlier.

 

[heraklion]

Weren't they basically state sponsored clubs?

I could not get the question, they were from former socialist/communist nations where state is involved in sports too, if that's what you are asking. I think Steaua was the army's team and Dinamo the police in Romania or vice versa.. Obviously, their finances were still limited compared to powerhouses like Milan, Bayern, Real etc.

My point was mostly about the teams being able keep their local talent such as Red Star having Savicevic, Prosinecki, Mihajlovic etc. so there was great competition, unpredictability (of course to an extent because you had amazing teams like Milan too) in European competitions.. Imagine Modric, Rakitic, Mandzukic playing in Hajduk or Dinamo Zagreb together for example rather than being grouped with 10s of other stars from other nations at Real, Barca etc. leaving not much for top tier teams in Croatia.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

What's a non elitist/gatekeeping argument against this?

The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is an incredibly wealthy, absolute monarchy. The idea that opposing such an entity is elitist is laughable.

 

[Trim90]

So... UEFA members enter a UEFA competition?

And why are teams from Israel in the EUROPEAN competition? And why does Israel sing songs in the EUROsong festival?

I'm 100% against any team outside of Europe joining or playing in EUROPEAN competitions. Israel, Saudi's, ... they can create their own leagues and champions leagues. They don't have any reason to join competitions in Europe.
We truely live in a South Park Episode. This is totally absurd imo

 

[Alex99]

And why are teams from Israel in the EUROPEAN competition? And why does Israel sing songs in the EUROsong festival?

I'm 100% against any team outside of Europe joining or playing in EUROPEAN competitions. Israel, Saudi's, ... they can create their own leagues and champions leagues. They don't have any reason to join competitions in Europe.
We truely live in a South Park Episode. This is totally absurd imo

Literally just read this thread to find the answers to your questions, and much more relevant information.

 

[Demyanenko_square_jaw]

Weren't they basically state sponsored clubs?

Half of European football was state-owned back then. However, it was the privately owned capitalist pigdogs that were throwing money around draining other poorer continents/countries of talent and slowly setting the foundations for what we have today. The commie teams were all either partially (through age restrictions on moving abroad) or fully cut off from international movement of players/transfer market by their governments and had to use domestic talent.

 

[Trim90]

Literally just read this thread to find the answers to your questions, and much more relevant information.

It's still doesn't make sense that they could join Uefa, even if they were refused entry in the Asian FA. They are not in Europe, so shouldn't be playing in an Euro competition. But because it's Israel and all the political crap in the ME, I do get why they could join, but it still doesn't make any sense.

 

[Camara]

And why are teams from Israel in the EUROPEAN competition? And why does Israel sing songs in the EUROsong festival?

I'm 100% against any team outside of Europe joining or playing in EUROPEAN competitions. Israel, Saudi's, ... they can create their own leagues and champions leagues. They don't have any reason to join competitions in Europe.
We truely live in a South Park Episode. This is totally absurd imo

Israel is in several european organizations for political reasons. It was an easy fix to their problem.
Initially they were in Asia but they were embargoed and blockaded by several other nations. Either they give up playing or the competitions would be a farce with half the games not taking place.
So 2 options: ban from Asia those who rejected playing them (even worse outcome and much harder) or they would leave Asia and join another continent.
Europe was the best choice as they institutionally are closer to european countries' politics and much of their population has european descent.
Africa was the other choice but some countries would be against them so the same problem could happen again.

Kazakhstan has a minoritary part of its territory in the most agreed geographical definition of Europe, just like Turkey, Russia, Georgia and Azerbaijan. So they are in Europe, even if only partially. They could play in Asia if they wanted to but but several reasons (culturally, politically/historically or just sheer preference) they chose Europe.
Armenia, Malta and Cyprus are outside the geographical Europe but culturally they are european and they are pretty close to european borders, it makes sense to include them in Europe.
Greenland, when it creates a team, it can play in Europe (for historical reasons) or North America (for geographical reasons), it can be in any of those.

 

[Zen86]

I have no doubts that Saudi Arabia will conquer club football in a very short time. Much faster than City, PSG, Chelsea, Leipzig etc. ever did. All of which took more or less a decade. The SPL is not subject to any rules and can spend as much as it deems necessary to quickly create a top league.
And you don't need that much for it. If each Saudi team is only allowed to have 8 foreigners, it needs 144 players for the 18-club league. Of which about 30 top-class ones have already been bagged. I assume that in this transfer window they will easily make 20 more. You get the rest in the next 2-3 transfer windows.

I think first of all the 4 state clubs will be provided with high-quality players before the rest is slowly taken care of. It can't be in the league's interest if only 4 clubs are partially equipped with world-class players and the rest are completely declining in terms of quality. However, many of the small clubs already have well-known players who have played in the top European leagues.

I see absolutely no reason why the Saudis won't succeed with this. I wonder why they didn't do this sooner. Even if nobody in Europe will follow the Saudi League, there is still a huge market in the Arab world. About the size of Europe. And that's just the Arabs! What about the remaining 1.5 billion Muslims in the world who identify with Saudi Arabia like no other country in the world. And then there is the rest of Africa and especially Asia, which will be directly affected by the AFC and AC and will see their teams play against the star teams from Saudi Arabia in the Asian club competitions. That's what people want to see there.

Of course, you will initially invest a lot and buy overpriced, and have to pay incredibly high salaries. But that will not always be the case. And they will always have the net/gross advantage over the Europeans. Once the Saudis have laid the foundation for this and the league has reached a more professional level and the buying of all stars, which will no longer be necessary for marketing purposes, they will go to the source in South America and Africa and look for talent there to go fishing. Especially the African, and especially the Muslim players will prefer the Middle East over Europe.

Just as 20-30 years ago it was considered impossible to successfully build clubs like Chelsea or later City, for example, today there are doubts that a league would work. If you want, this even works with an entire continent. Imagine, all of a sudden the other oil-rich Arabs (UAE, Qatar, etc..) start doing the same thing as the Saudis. Immediately you have 3-4 top-class leagues with many well-armed top clubs competing for the AFC. Maybe then the Japanese and South Korean billionaires will start buying traditional local clubs and upgrading them massively. As I said, 144 players is not much. And it's not like they only invest in the premier league. They also massively upgrade the lower leagues. The infrastructure required for this is being set up. They commit manpower with the necessary knowledge, build sports centers, academies and soon the 1st division teams will also get completely new and modern stadiums.

The Saudis are here to stay, and with maximum success.

Good. I hope it happens so they can feck off and slosh their money around their own leagues. I’d rather have a poor league which is actually a level playing field than a rich one with a few stupidly doped clubs. Same goes for all the other states and actors bending the competition.

 

[maniak]

And why are teams from Israel in the EUROPEAN competition? And why does Israel sing songs in the EUROsong festival?

I'm 100% against any team outside of Europe joining or playing in EUROPEAN competitions. Israel, Saudi's, ... they can create their own leagues and champions leagues. They don't have any reason to join competitions in Europe.
We truely live in a South Park Episode. This is totally absurd imo

What are you on about, mate? Israel was literally expelled from the AFC in the 70s, so it made sense they joined UEFA. It's not comparable at all to a country buying their way into an organization.

Most people agree that sometimes geographical reasons are not good reasons. Look at Australia playing in the AFC, it would be ridiculous for them and their clubs to play teams from Fiji or Vanuatu, so sensible people accept it.

If there was a legitimate reason for SA to join UEFA it would be one thing, but most people see it as ridiculous because the only reason is "here's a bunch of money, now let us in".

 

[Red the Bear]

I think the backlash was spot on. The proposal was a league with no promotion or relegation, so it cut-off the majority of English clubs from that opportunity. I mean why would any fan want that?

Yes that was a flaw and even then I'd say it was much more preferable to whatever this is.

I'd genuinely think a revised super league format where legacy clubs from Portugal and Netherlands are included with a minor promotion and relegation system in place Is much more ideal than the direction uefa is going, even than I thought it was quite telling that the clubs most opposed to it were the likes of psg and city (the first English club to pull out i think).

 

[IhabX7]

Yes, they are just a simple Arab state who happen to be oil rich. No atrocities or human rights abuses with them. They love journalists there too.

What atrocities Saudi Arabia does in a year Israel does in a day. I’m not trying to defend Saudi Arabia, I despise them.

 

[Marauder1]

Lets say that Saudi gets their way and buy their way into UCL and eventually the super league gets formed, probably likely. UAE and Quatar could follow by creating their own Galactico team for globe trotting. Whats the purpose of Man City, Newcastle and PSG then?

 

[heraklion]

What atrocities Saudi Arabia does in a year Israel does in a day. I’m not trying to defend Saudi Arabia, I despise them.

read below links about state sponsored terrorism, human rights situation in Saudi Arabia and catastrophic Yemen war for a start..

" Saudi Arabia arguably remains the most prolific sponsor of international Islamist terrorism"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State-sponsored_terrorism

" The authoritarian regime ruling the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is consistently ranked among the "worst of the worst" in Freedom House's annual survey of political and civil rights"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia

below is another one, check the war crimes part..

"The Saudi-led campaign has received widespread criticism and had a dramatic worsening effect on the humanitarian situation in Yemen, that reached the level of a "humanitarian disaster"[23] or "humanitarian catastrophe". The war has contributed to the famine in Yemen which has threatened over 17 million people, according to the UN, as well as an outbreak of cholera which has infected hundreds of thousands"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi-led_intervention_in_the_Yemeni_civil_war

 

[RedDevil@84]

Israel was literally expelled from the AFC in the 70s, so it made sense they joined UEFA

I am not sure why joining UEFA is considered as a natural conclusion of the expulsion from AFC. Israel is a preferred nation, politically for Europe and pretty much all the West, ever since its formation. I think that plays a big part.

UEFA can do whatever it wishes and if tomorrow they want to get in Saudi League or Messi League into it, then they would do it. Going through the mental gymnastics to justify what UEFA does seems to be futile.

 

[maniak]

I am not sure why joining UEFA is considered as a natural conclusion of the expulsion from AFC. Israel is a preferred nation, politically for Europe and pretty much all the West, ever since its formation. I think that plays a big part.

UEFA can do whatever it wishes and if tomorrow they want to get in Saudi League or Messi League into it, then they would do it. Going through the mental gymnastics to justify what UEFA does seems to be futile.

Surely you can see the difference between legitimate political or sporting reasons and "here's the cash".

 

[altodevil]

If they got in then I could see the old guard re-igniting super league talks, with probably more backing from fans. Maybe that's the whole play. With the Saudis getting Newcastle in it.

 

[RedDevil@84]

Surely you can see the difference between legitimate political or sporting reasons and "here's the cash".

I see it. Ideally I would have both politics and brown envelopes out of any sports decisions. But it is not possible.
Besides neither UEFA nor the Saudis are gonna put this as a "here's the cash" decision. They will have an elaborate procedure to justify any kind of inclusions.

Anyways, this whole discussion sprung up because one set of posters said UEFA means European nations only and other posters said UEFA has taken exception in many cases, regardless of the geographical location of the nation. Then the morality cards were brought out and so on

 

[Lee565]

Problem is Saudi won't want just 1 team in the champions league, they will literally want every team in the league in thr champions leaguebbecause the whole thing is state backed and that is when it truly becomes an absolute laughing stock of a competition that should then be renamed oil money champions league

Can't all these state backed oil team both in Europe and Saudi just all do one and have their own competition for themselves

 

[Marauder1]

If they got in then I could see the old guard re-igniting super league talks, with probably more backing from fans. Maybe that's the whole play. With the Saudis getting Newcastle in it.

Yeah thats the thing though, if they can get their own teams in and legitimised as serious players in the game competing for top honours how does Newcastle fit into that equation? They are obviously prepared to dump an astronomical amount of money into this and they will want their own teams in the super league. If the Saudi teams are permitted to join then the UAE and Quatar will maybe feel like giving it a go themselves, they certainly have the funds. Gonna be a bit weird when teams under the direct same ownere start playing themselves but its all about the money right.

 

[Maurice Setters Training]

Someone else may have posted this. I have not read through all 11 pages yet.

Uefa set the rules for their competitions. The Saudi clubs would struggle with any Financial Sustainability rules (FFP).

Or maybe Uefa let them in, but they must meet Uefa FFP rules.

 

[RoyH1]

Superleague please now - and stick a massive implement up UEFAs collective arse holes

No, no… football for the fans, remember?
Of course dodgy UEFA is going to go for this sooner rather than later

 

[Teja]

What's a non elitist/gatekeeping argument against this?

Uefa set the rules for their competitions. The Saudi clubs would struggle with any Financial Sustainability rules (FFP).

Or maybe Uefa let them in, but they must meet Uefa FFP rules.

It's too easy to bypass FFP. Arab clubs have done it in western nations like PSG, England etc., so it'd be a piece of cake to do it on home turf. Assuming that's true, there's no way a single private enterprise can compete against nation state levels of wealth. Clubs aren't just businesses though, they come with communities of fans and a history. A soulless league born because a dictator decided to modernize their country trumping over organic football league growth is just sad.

It will be bad for the PL and although the other leagues might have a certain amount of schadenfreude at that thought, they will also end up worse off - instead of just the PL stealing players from them and paying exorbitant wages, it'll be Saudi Ariabia and the PL both.

 

[Just Hope]

Unlikely to happen.

It is funny still to see people fuming at Saudi Arabia for flexing its financial muscles, while European countries do it all the time in South America.

 

[FrankFoot]

Unlikely to happen.

It is funny still to see people fuming at Saudi Arabia for flexing its financial muscles, while European countries do it all the time in South America.

But at the same time Brazil has always flexed his financial muscle to the rest of South America though, they always have had the richest clubs by far, along with Boca Juniors and River Plate from Argentina.

 

[utdalltheway]

….while European countries do it all the time in South America.

In what way?

 

[Iosif]

So the only argument here seems to be that Saudi Arabia aren't in UEFA.

They can join? Others have, and UEFA have shown they don't much care about geography. I'm sure the Saudis have enough influence to make it happen.

Also, who cares? Why should the tournament limit itself?

Other than a minor technical issued that's easily remedied, what's the other objection? They're not a democracy (Belarus, Russia)? They have an awful human rights record (Belarus, Russia, Serbia...)?

Football should be more inclusive in my opinion. If the Saudi clubs prove themselves good enough to compete then let them compete.

Honestly, it just seems to me that people are generally okay with Arabs spending billions buying players for their clubs but aren't okay as soon as they ask for a seat at the table for their clubs.

Let them play.

 

[DRJosh]

They'd probably rebrand it as a UEFA champion's league with 'special guests' a.k.a guests with unlimited money to throw.

 

[tenpoless]

If their league winner deserves to be in CL then so do Wrexham and Dundee United. And all clubs in Germany and France and Italy.

 

[FrankFoot]

So the only argument here seems to be that Saudi Arabia aren't in UEFA.

They can join? Others have, and UEFA have shown they don't much care about geography. I'm sure the Saudis have enough influence to make it happen.

Also, who cares? Why should the tournament limit itself?

Other than a minor technical issued that's easily remedied, what's the other objection? They're not a democracy (Belarus, Russia)? They have an awful human rights record (Belarus, Russia, Serbia...)?

Football should be more inclusive in my opinion. If the Saudi clubs prove themselves good enough to compete then let them compete.

Honestly, it just seems to me that people are generally okay with Arabs spending billions buying players for their clubs but aren't okay as soon as they ask for a seat at the table for their clubs.

Let them play.

If everyone can join any competition, then what's the point of having continental competitions then?

 

[FrankFoot]

If their league winner deserves to be in CL then so do Wrexham and Dundee United. And all clubs in Germany and France and Italy.

Watch UEFA give Saudi clubs 3 spots when not even Portugal or Netherlands have 3 direct spots for the UCL

 

[Alex99]

So the only argument here seems to be that Saudi Arabia aren't in UEFA.

They can join? Others have, and UEFA have shown they don't much care about geography. I'm sure the Saudis have enough influence to make it happen.

Also, who cares? Why should the tournament limit itself?

Other than a minor technical issued that's easily remedied, what's the other objection? They're not a democracy (Belarus, Russia)? They have an awful human rights record (Belarus, Russia, Serbia...)?

Football should be more inclusive in my opinion. If the Saudi clubs prove themselves good enough to compete then let them compete.

Honestly, it just seems to me that people are generally okay with Arabs spending billions buying players for their clubs but aren't okay as soon as they ask for a seat at the table for their clubs.

Let them play.

The only argument is an important aspect though. You can't just discount it because it doesn't fit your narrative.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

Do you think the clubs of nations involved in Iraqi war for never found mass destruction weapons as well as wars in Syria, Libya etc. should receive a sanction too? What makes these acceptable vs what Israel has been doing?

People do not want Saudi because of their toxic influence with oil money on world football not for political reasons otherwise they have their share of atrocities in and outside their country like Yemen.. Israeli teams are in Euro competitions simply because they do not have a nearby outlet to compete due to being boycotted..

It would be pretty sad if people are more concerned about money then actual humanitarian atrocities

 

[Devil_forever]

The real super league will be when Saudi offer huge amounts of money to the top clubs to join a competition of their creation, at which point UEFA either allow a Saudi team in to the competition or face the threat of another breakaway league.

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

So the only argument here seems to be that Saudi Arabia aren't in UEFA.

They can join? Others have, and UEFA have shown they don't much care about geography. I'm sure the Saudis have enough influence to make it happen.

Also, who cares? Why should the tournament limit itself?

Other than a minor technical issued that's easily remedied, what's the other objection? They're not a democracy (Belarus, Russia)? They have an awful human rights record (Belarus, Russia, Serbia...)?

Football should be more inclusive in my opinion. If the Saudi clubs prove themselves good enough to compete then let them compete.

Honestly, it just seems to me that people are generally okay with Arabs spending billions buying players for their clubs but aren't okay as soon as they ask for a seat at the table for their clubs.

Let them play.

What's the point of continental competitions then, might as well send Celtic to the Copa Liberatodores and Albania to the African Cup of Nations. Why should Saudi Arabian clubs get into the Champions League over Egyptian, UAE or Japanese clubs that have proven their match in the AFC Champions League? What's the point of the AFC Champions League then, should Copenhagen and Malmo play there? What's the point of the Club World Cup then? At what point does it stop being the UEFA Champions League and start becoming the Club World Cup? Etc etc

 

[TrebleChamp99]

Coming for Varane

 

[Camara]

Unlikely to happen.

It is funny still to see people fuming at Saudi Arabia for flexing its financial muscles, while European countries do it all the time in South America.

You're missing the entire point.
The state of Saudi Arabia is flexing the muscles (just like UAE and Qatar), this is what people are complaining.
People were already complaining when companies like Gazprom were also flexing their muscles.

You cannot have state companies' clubs competing with other clubs unless they're heavily regulated. The reason is simple: unfair competition.
Imagine now the US military buying LA Galaxy or something and starting pumping billions of dollars from their giant national wide funded budget to buy the best players from anywhere. Do you think it would be fair too?

 

[Lecland07]

I'm not sure whether this will go through. Bribes to Uefa will not be enough as they are already at odds with the biggest leagues/clubs in Europe. They would have tempt the FAs from Spain, England, Germany, Italy and France, at the very least, to show that there is something for them to gain with the inclusion of Saudi Arabia. People mention other leagues being allowed in, but they don't matter as they are not a threat on the financial side.

I think there are two ways this ends: one will be the collapse of Uefa and the withdrawal of all the big clubs or leagues, which ends in the creation of a super league; the second would be that Saudi Arabia agree to severely curb their spending or they offer some financial incentive to the those leagues.

I can't see there being any real financial growth to the CL tournament through attendance or viewership, so there would have to be something else to offset the threat of their spending.

I speculate this might push clubs to leave UEFA as this will give them a great argument and reason to do so.

 

[wolvored]

When any league is outside the constraints of FFP or whatever its morphing into, there is no way they should be able to play in any competition where the other leagues are (in theory, City and Chelsea beg to differ). When they can pay the best players millions of pounds a week, then there is no fair competition.