Saudi League thread

RG77

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I work in IT and got offered a position in Riyadh today. Nowhere close to the Mbappe money though. Greedy bastards.
 

Red in STL

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Using that logic I can imagine messi saying "pepsi paid me to film a comercial, it was so cool, I got to travel and meet nice people... what, you're telling me pepsi's image improved because of this? wow what an unintended byproduct, who could've seen it coming... for me it was just about the filming and the experience. pepsi really got me there"

The fact they're helping improve SA's image is not some weird and unintended consequence, it's the point of the whole thing, so they know very well, like we all do, that accepting that money to play football comes hand in hand with cleaning the image of one of the most horrible regimes in the world these days.

Trying to deny this is a really strange hill to die on.
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You don't get it do you, the players are there to earn bucket loads of cash, they don't give a shite about the cleansing, that's the Saudi reason for doing it not the players

Edit: Would be dying on a sand dune rather than a hill!
 

Botim

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Anybody that watches this abomination should be deeply ashamed of themselves.
 

arnie_ni

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You don't get it do you, the players are there to earn bucket loads of cash, they don't give a shite about the cleansing, that's the Saudi reason for doing it not the players

Edit: Would be dying on a sand dune rather than a hill!
I'd think that is pretty obvious to be fair but obviously not.
 

maniak

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We aren't dying on any hill. We are simply saying they don't give a feck if they improve the image of SA or not. You said they are going there to improve the image of the country. The aren't. They are going for the money. If the image improves, it improves, these players don't care.

The only factor in their decision to move is the money. They might consider how it affects their own image but they won't ever consider how it affects SA image.
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You don't get it do you, the players are there to earn bucket loads of cash, they don't give a shite about the cleansing, that's the Saudi reason for doing it not the players

Edit: Would be dying on a sand dune rather than a hill!
It's so weird that you two seem to be able to completely dissociate a paying job from the consequences of accepting that job, especially when the goal of the employer is so clear.
 

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It's so weird that you two seem to be able to completely dissociate a paying job from the consequences of accepting that job, especially when the goal of the employer is so clear.
And I find it weird that you insist players are going to Saudi to help them cleanse their image

I work for a large multi-national company, their goal is to provide/sell information of value, the sector I work in is medical publishing

I work for them because they pay me a fairly good salary for what I do, I don't care what their aim is
 

Botim

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I work for them because they pay me a fairly good salary for what I do, I don't care what their aim is
But surely you can think of a situation where you would care? Would you work for a company that manufactures torture devices if the money was right?
 

arnie_ni

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But surely you can think of a situation where you would care? Would you work for a company that manufactures torture devices if the money was right?
But that's not what maniak is saying though. He's saying the players are going to Saudi Arabia to help improve Saudi Arabia image. They aren't.

Rtl might very well take that job if it paid enough, but he wouldn't be doing it to improve the image of the company. He'd be doing it to improve his own bank balance.
 

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But surely you can think of a situation where you would care? Would you work for a company that manufactures torture devices if the money was right?
I have, though they didn't pay me that well, you might know them as DFS - their sofas were torture devices in those days :lol:

To be serious, I have no idea, it would depend on circumstances at that time but I'm past the age where I'll ever have to make that choice
 

arnie_ni

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It's so weird that you two seem to be able to completely dissociate a paying job from the consequences of accepting that job, especially when the goal of the employer is so clear.
We aren't dissociating it. We are simply saying the players aren't thinking "oh maybe I will take this job in Saudi Arabia because it will help their image" - that is not a reason they are moving there.

It's a likely consequence however.
 

oneniltothearsenal

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You don't get it do you, the players are there to earn bucket loads of cash, they don't give a shite about the cleansing, that's the Saudi reason for doing it not the players

Edit: Would be dying on a sand dune rather than a hill!
I don't think anyone disputes that. Yes, the players are making the choice because they are being offered a lot more money than they are being offered elsewhere. And Saudi is offering the money because of sportswashing, just to simplify.

But I think there are considerations beyond just two facts. Like @Cascarino highlighted in some great posts, not everyone will make job choices solely based on money. Yes, money will be a consideration but the "everyone would do it" is not true. For the Saudi league, as Cascarino mentioned you also have to take into account their laws, for instance, how they look at LGBT people and how your wife might feel about living under more restrictions than in Europe and of course, legacy for your career. Some people might not care and just take the money. But others will care about more than money. This is perfectly illustrated by Mbappe not even entertaining their offer while it looks like Verratti is gone. Mbappe clearly cares about things beyond just raw cash. I don't think that's anything really controversial either. If someone offered me 2x, 3x my current salary to go work on Trump's re-election campaign I'd tell them to feck right off.

What I think @maniak is saying, is that if someone is only thinking about money and not even considering some of those other factors, then that person will lose some respect which I think is also fair. On legacy alone, no one is going to look at Verratti's career the same way after this move which would have been different if he went to RM, Barca or a top 5 PL side after PSG. While it is definitely true that the players are making the choice because of the money, I think it's fair for some people to say they will judge players differently based on making this choice solely based on money. I think Saudi's endgame is definitely something like what they did with LIV and PGA. They want to force/negotiate something like a Super League or World Champions League with them in at least partial control to 1) make more money as the world moves away from oil and 2) sportswashing, to simplify the concept of what they are doing. I think it's inevitable that many will look differently at players choosing to participate in this endeavor even if the player's sole motivation is just more money.
 
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maniak

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And I find it weird that you insist players are going to Saudi to help them cleanse their image

I work for a large multi-national company, their goal is to provide/sell information of value, the sector I work in is medical publishing

I work for them because they pay me a fairly good salary for what I do, I don't care what their aim is
Regardless of you caring or not, if they were doing something damaging to people's health, you would be a part of that. If your livelihood didn't depend on that salary, you would have a choice to make, keep working for a company that is harmful, even your paycheck doesn't state "for services provided in the area of hurting people", or stop working for that company. If you chose the second option, I would think less of you, even if you told me you were only there for the money, not the hurting people bit.

Of course if your livelihood and your children depended on that salary, I would never criticize you. It's not the case with these multimillionaires though.
 

maniak

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But that's not what maniak is saying though. He's saying the players are going to Saudi Arabia to help improve Saudi Arabia image. They aren't.

Rtl might very well take that job if it paid enough, but he wouldn't be doing it to improve the image of the company. He'd be doing it to improve his own bank balance.
Because they are improving the image of SA. Jesus, have I fallen into a weird dimension where two things can't possibly happen simultaneously?
 

maniak

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We aren't dissociating it. We are simply saying the players aren't thinking "oh maybe I will take this job in Saudi Arabia because it will help their image" - that is not a reason they are moving there.

It's a likely consequence however.
That's the definition of dissociating, they know by going there they will improve the image of SA but because they know that would make them assholes, they set that aside and use the excuse you're using. It's all about the money. Well, obviously actions have often multiple consequences, you can't pick and choose.
 

adexkola

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Has Messi moving to the US improved the image of the USA? Has everyone forgotten about our love of guns for a second? Did everyone notice, "oh shit, France is actually falling apart" after he left?
 

maniak

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Has Messi moving to the US improved the image of the USA? Has everyone forgotten about our love of guns for a second? Did everyone notice, "oh shit, France is actually falling apart" after he left?
Is messi playing for a club owned by the us government? Is messi part of a global scheme by the us government to improve their image on multiple fronts including several sports?

Whataboutism was really the only thing missing here...
 

adexkola

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Is messi playing for a club owned by the us government? Is messi part of a global scheme by the us government to improve their image on multiple fronts including several sports?

Whataboutism was really the only thing missing here...
:lol: so you're saying that if Al Ettifaq wasn't owned by the Saudi Arabia government then you'd have no issues with Henderson going to Saudi Arabia to play there?

Because I didn't know ownership had to be in play for "images to be improved". F1 is not owned by any ME government but races being hosted there have been classified under the "sportswashing" category. Nice try though.

It's a simple question I asked. Does "image improvement" only happen in the Middle East, and outside of that, players moving to different countries has no impact on the image of said countries?
 

dinostar77

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Not about football. But probably the best geo politics channel on youtube. Content is always outstanding. If you want to understand more about suadi arabia.

 

maniak

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:lol: so you're saying that if Al Ettifaq wasn't owned by the Saudi Arabia government then you'd have no issues with Henderson going to Saudi Arabia to play there?

Because I didn't know ownership had to be in play for "images to be improved". F1 is not owned by any ME government but races being hosted there have been classified under the "sportswashing" category. Nice try though.

It's a simple question I asked. Does "image improvement" only happen in the Middle East, and outside of that, players moving to different countries has no impact on the image of said countries?
You can use all the green smileys and "nice try though" you want, it doesn't change the fact it's just pure whataboutism, you're not being smart, just so very predictable.

If I'm not mistaken you've said before you don't believe in sportswashing (maybe I'm mistaking your for another poster) so it will be difficult to find any common ground if you don't believe in something so blatantly obvious.

As you well know, in dictatorships it's very difficult to separate state from companies, so I would argue in this specific case it wouldn't really make a difference who owns these saudi clubs. They are an obvious part of the grand plan the country has to use sports to clean their image and gain influence on the world stage. This doesn't apply to the US.

I don't know in detail the reality of formula 1, but it smells a lot like sportswashing.

Any country with an image problem can do this, it's not exclusive to the middle-east.

So a direct question to you, do you believe all these players moving to the saudi league will improve the international image of the country? Not to political analysts, but the random joe.
 

Iker Quesadillas

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Has Messi moving to the US improved the image of the USA? Has everyone forgotten about our love of guns for a second?
US worldwide opinion is pretty good and most people don't care about their love of guns at all.
 

arnie_ni

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That's the definition of dissociating, they know by going there they will improve the image of SA but because they know that would make them assholes, they set that aside and use the excuse you're using. It's all about the money. Well, obviously actions have often multiple consequences, you can't pick and choose.
You're arguing something else now. You originally said they are accepting the money to improve the Saudi image. They aren't. They are accepting the money to improve their bank account. Of course they know they might improve SA image. But that's not why they are doing it.
 

arnie_ni

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So a direct question to you, do you believe all these players moving to the saudi league will improve the international image of the country? Not to political analysts, but the random joe.
Yes, it's likely,.but that's not why the players are going there
 

maniak

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You're arguing something else now. You originally said they are accepting the money to improve the Saudi image. They aren't. They are accepting the money to improve their bank account. Of course they know they might improve SA image. But that's not why they are doing it.
This was literally my first post on the subject.

Evil is a strong word, but I certainly think less of people who accept money to improve the image of a criminal regime.
Are they accepting saudi money? Yes

Are they improving the image of SA? Yes

So... yeah.
 

arnie_ni

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This was literally my first post on the subject.



Are they accepting saudi money? Yes

Are they improving the image of SA? Yes

So... yeah.
They aren't accepting it to improve the image of the regime though as I've said multiple times
 

maniak

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They aren't accepting it to improve the image of the regime though as I've said multiple times
Yeah and I've explained that two things can happen at the same time, so I guess you just want to be stubborn for the sake of it, so let's leave it at that.
 

Reapersoul20

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So Henderson et al have decided to go and play in Saudi Arabis because they want to improve the image of the Saudi regime, no other reason?
No, he's only allowed play in female Saudi Arabis, if he plays in the male ones they'll behead him.

Also, no that isn't what I said.
 

adexkola

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You can use all the green smileys and "nice try though" you want, it doesn't change the fact it's just pure whataboutism, you're not being smart, just so very predictable.

If I'm not mistaken you've said before you don't believe in sportswashing (maybe I'm mistaking your for another poster) so it will be difficult to find any common ground if you don't believe in something so blatantly obvious.

As you well know, in dictatorships it's very difficult to separate state from companies, so I would argue in this specific case it wouldn't really make a difference who owns these saudi clubs. They are an obvious part of the grand plan the country has to use sports to clean their image and gain influence on the world stage. This doesn't apply to the US.

I don't know in detail the reality of formula 1, but it smells a lot like sportswashing.

Any country with an image problem can do this, it's not exclusive to the middle-east.

So a direct question to you, do you believe all these players moving to the saudi league will improve the international image of the country? Not to political analysts, but the random joe.
1. It was genuinely funny, wasn't trying to put you down. And playing the whataboutism card is literally deflecting from the conversation as to why this accusation of "improving images" isn't consistent. Whataboutism would be me saying, "A does it so B doing it is ok". I'm asking why it's only sportswashing/image improvement when A does it.

2. It is I that believes the concept of sportswashing (pushed as fact on the Caf) is utter bullshit, yes. Another term that isn't consistent.

3. I recommend you watch the geopolitics video posted above. It's long and very informative. And you're not going to walk away and think, "oh wow Saudi Arabia, lacking in influence in the world, is trying to gain influence on the
world stage through signing past it PL players"... That influence you say they're trying to gain, they already have. Pound for pound they're one of the most influential states on the world stage. Which is why the concept of sportswashing (as is commonly used) doesn't make any sense if you sit down and think about it: Saudi Arabia's forays into sport have brought way more negative attention than positive on it's backward LGBT laws, executions, war in Yemen, Khashoggi... this applies to average joes and knowledgeable people alike. And the opinion of the average Joe doesn't even matter. It's the opinion of the politicians and business leaders that matter, and they know what's going on in Saudi Arabia. They just don't give a feck.

4. You only partially answered mine but I'll answer yours fully: no. I don't think there is a substantial/significant population of people going, "well I used to hate the Sauds, but they bought Mahrez, so they're alright with me". You'll find most people fall into 1 of 2 buckets: they never liked SA, or they always liked SA despite the bullshit. And again, the opinion of the random Joe doesn't really matter apart from online debates. Again from the video above, if the Sauds can't transition from oil, they can have Mbappe, Haaland and Ronaldo in their league, they aren't getting saved.
 

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Mbappe: “If it was about the money, I could just renew with PSG with a better financial contract. Why would I go to a league where players go when they don’t have offers from any European clubs.”

Ouch.
 

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So Henderson et al have decided to go and play in Saudi Arabis because they want to improve the image of the Saudi regime, no other reason?
No, but they know that this is the primary reason for why they are being signed and are fine with it, as long as they get fat stacks of cash to play in a league that's weaker than the Norwegian top division.

We may see an uptick as a result of Messi's transfer. I will be staying tuned.
Are you being wilfully obtuse, as part of your tiresome contrarian schtick?
 

adexkola

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No, but they know that this is the primary reason for why they are being signed and are fine with it, as long as they get fat stacks of cash to play in a league that's weaker than the Norwegian top division.


Are you being wilfully obtuse, as part of your tiresome contrarian schtick?
If you find me tiresome you can put me on ignore. Otherwise address my points or shut the feck up and stick your file on me up your ass.

Selah.
 

gajender

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No, but they know that this is the primary reason for why they are being signed and are fine with it, as long as they get fat stacks of cash to play in a league that's weaker than the Norwegian top division.


Are you being wilfully obtuse, as part of your tiresome contrarian schtick?
Their primary reason is to diversify their Economy and Emerge as some sort of Sporting Hub attracting money back into their Country Eventually in the long run . I don't know how much you are aware of sport of Cricket but UAE already has league of its own and Saudi's are also planning on getting something along the lines of highly lucrative model of India's IPL and also investing big their as well while trying to rope in Indian cricketers and Cricket's biggest market is India and opposition to Saudi's on Human Rights Ground is hardly a factor here .
 
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Iker Quesadillas

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JustCoco

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I work in IT and got offered a position in Riyadh today. Nowhere close to the Mbappe money though. Greedy bastards.
Did you show that you're a 20 goal a season player for the inter-departmental tournament though?