We hold very few cards indeed which is why, despite Scotland not voting for it, we're left lumbered with feudal lordship and an oligarchy , Satan incarnate as a home secretary, a PG Wodehouse character as PM, a media that is slowly morphing into your Neighbourhood watch member racist Aunt and fecking Brexit. But, hey, we are, as you point out, close to powerless so perhaps eventually we'll learn our lesson and shut the feck up lest like a torrent rush we are crushed once more.
Scottish Politics
- Thread starter Cheesy
- Start date
Better together offered a 'handshake and a wink' kind of DEVOMAX back before the referendum. "The Vow" was born in order to get yes voters to go the other way. After they got their no vote, "The Vow" died very quickly when the unionist parties butchered the Smith commission. Theres a big list of things that we were promised, but most of them turned to shit by the end of 2015. So I think, if they really were to offer something that would keep the no votes no, it would have to be put on paper and written into law first. ie "look what you will be walking away from" rather than "if you stay, you can have this...".
Not sure how thats a reply to what I said. It could...what? Its fairly simple, if the assertion is that everything belongs to the UK. Then EVERYTHING belongs to the UK. Which includes the debt. But if Scotland is to take on its share of the debt, then its only right that it takes its share of the assets that we built up together as well.
We've got a population that's aging at an even faster rate than England and Wales, which is why immigration is desperately needed in Scotland more than elsewhere. It's probably the single best reason to want to rejoin the EU and get back free movement.
Bit of a catch-22. We need more immigration to reduce the budget deficit in the long run, but the budget deficit as it is might stop us getting back into the EU, were we to become independent.
I still think the SNP are going about this all wrong... they should start engaging with the rest of the Uk electorate and try to get a UK wide vote on "do you want the money grabbing scots kicked out of the union"... they would walk the independence vote
I like your thinking. Put SNP candidates in English constituencies with the promise that they can have a vote like the one you suggest. Smash the elections and have an SNP majority across the entire UK. And then wee Nicky starts pulling out the copper wire in Westminster and runs away whilst everyone gets sold into slavery to work at Trump's golf course. It's a brilliant plan and I'm glad you suggested it.
It's a deal as long as England keeps Nicky Campbell and Jim White.
As much as there is clear and vocal support for this, I just don't see how the SNP will be able to give proper guidance and answers to the Scottish public on what's going to happen with their economy, the potential lengthy period of austerity, and other critical infrastructure and services - let alone national security - that's tide up with being a part of the UK.
Yes, you could argue that the UK did something similar with Brexit, but - even as a remainer - I can see that the self-determination of key infrastructure, services and currency was already in place here. Brexit is like opting out of a club that was giving you the best membership deal possible. Scottish independence would be like opting out of the club in order to start a new one that has absolutely zero accreditation.
What also bemuses me is that the SNP are arguing for even more progressive climate policies and stances than what's coming out of Westminster - which is actually v ambitious/being acted upon in contrast to most similar countries. You'd think that utilising their massive oil reserves would be a good temporary means of smoothing out the process, but they're wanting to dissolve that industry even faster! Again, super glad that these industries are changing and progressing, but how can Scotland potentially start their own currency - and have it valued as being competitive with both the pound and euro - whilst not relying on their most essential export (... after whisky)??
I just think, bar those who are so ideologically driven as to enter the abyss in order to break away from Westminster, there are unavoidable short-term negative impacts that will sway people into backing a united Britain. Especially if the UK experiences the economic bounce that has been forecast, and we don't enter another serious Covid wave.
Yes, you could argue that the UK did something similar with Brexit, but - even as a remainer - I can see that the self-determination of key infrastructure, services and currency was already in place here. Brexit is like opting out of a club that was giving you the best membership deal possible. Scottish independence would be like opting out of the club in order to start a new one that has absolutely zero accreditation.
What also bemuses me is that the SNP are arguing for even more progressive climate policies and stances than what's coming out of Westminster - which is actually v ambitious/being acted upon in contrast to most similar countries. You'd think that utilising their massive oil reserves would be a good temporary means of smoothing out the process, but they're wanting to dissolve that industry even faster! Again, super glad that these industries are changing and progressing, but how can Scotland potentially start their own currency - and have it valued as being competitive with both the pound and euro - whilst not relying on their most essential export (... after whisky)??
I just think, bar those who are so ideologically driven as to enter the abyss in order to break away from Westminster, there are unavoidable short-term negative impacts that will sway people into backing a united Britain. Especially if the UK experiences the economic bounce that has been forecast, and we don't enter another serious Covid wave.
I don't think that was me, but it's an interesting avenue, basically your Devo Max. Because of devolution, though, you actually already have a federal system for all intents and purposes. So the question is just how power is divided between the federal and regional governments - basically just asking if devolution should be developed further.
As you say though, you would likely need to split up England into several regions for this to serve its purpose - which might be even harder than anything else proposed so far in here. If that doesn't happen, though, it won't be fair to those regions that Scotland, NI, and Wales are getting more power while they are similarly being underserved by Westminster; plus England would be such a dominant factor in the confederation, that it would ultimately continue to be frustrating in similar ways as now.
Now I see - you shouldn't call talk about Scotland leaving England, you should talk about England finally dumping those impoverished, whiny haggis-eaters from the north! It's not Scoxit, it's Sco-feck-off! (Admittedly, Scoxit sounds better.)
INT = 0.
Now what!
I've never seen someone slowly descend from an educated response into complete madness as they added more quotes. Impressive!Your view or Scotland's view of what is fair isn't the only view though is it? Your fairly simple stance for example was not one the EU took during Brexit negotiations.
Scotland's view would only be the final say under a UDI.
If Sturgeon rules out UDI which she has then its Westminster's view of what is and isn't fair that is going to count. I'm not saying they are going to take down every school brick by brick and transport them to England but this quaint idea that you leave and decide your share of the furniture, which you take with you, won't happen. Assets the rest of the UK would need to pay to replace falls in the we are not paying for Scottish independence category.
How much is it to build a new nuclear submarine base for example?
All I am outlining is the horrendous mess of unspecified details the SNP are now responsible for clearing up and the eye watering potential costs they have exposed Scotland to and it will be Scotland that pays for it.
The rest of the UK didn't vote for this we will not be left in anyway holding the bag for it.
I did think writing a few fairly coherent (hopefully) paragraphs and then concluding with INT = 0 is a little contradictory.
This is a really good point. It's all well and good for us to say "get them out of Scotland" but they've also resulted in a lot of local jobs for the surrounding areas that have also benefitted from the base on top of the costs to build that you mention.
As Scotland would own most of the UK's current fishing waters at least they could start selling their fish again.
Interesting would be the customs border between Berwick and Gretna. Even more customs officers to recruit!
Smuggling immigrants through the Kielder Forest. Priti Patel on patrol.
Interesting would be the customs border between Berwick and Gretna. Even more customs officers to recruit!
Smuggling immigrants through the Kielder Forest. Priti Patel on patrol.
Gordon Brown's going to beat the SNP on his own, I wouldn't waste too much time thinking about full independence.
Labour have suggested on a few occasions now they would potentially agree to more powers for the Scottish Government. During and after the recent vote, I heard a few of their party talking about it, specifically increased borrowing powers. Arguably, they have the most ambitious plans for Covid recovery and they would need more borrowing to pay for it.
A more federal Scotland could be the way to find a middle ground between reasonable Unionists and Nationalists. There's a lunatic fringe in both camps who won't have it. Could, like you say, work well across the UK. Current Tory government is centralising more power in Westminster though, so it doesn't seem likely.
My “fairly simple stance“ is a legal one. It’s all “ours” or it’s not. Try going into a divorce saying the house is all yours, but the other part pays the mortgage.
Would depend where you built it
And that is a whole other question... but if a lease and access couldn't be agreed then France or USA in the short term probably
Longer term... well apparently not that many options in the UK with the right kind of water access and lack of people or businesses
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/apr/26/trident-overseas-or-halted-scotland-independence
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-28009977
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Scotland isn't divorcing the rest of the UK though. There is no judge to sit and rule on specifics just the two sides. Scotland has decided to leave and live in the shed at the top of the garden, and is out voted 10-1 by the rest of the people remaining in the house. I might be missing something but I don't see the play here.
If it would cost for example everyone in the UK 1000 pounds per year for say 20 years to have Scottish independence. Then it should cost every one in Scotland 10'000 pounds per year for 20 years to have Scottish independence and the rest of the UK nothing. The rest of the UK didn't vote to leave and doesn't accept Scotland's right to vote money out of our pockets.
Will England be stumping up for all the brexit losses then?
No, because everyone got a vote in that referendum, counting ounce across the UK. On the other hand any benefits that accrue would be shared even with those like me who didn't vote leave. I know it sucks but that is democracy when everyone gets a vote the loser is out voted and the majority position is taken.
Scottish independence is a Scottish only thing, fair enough, I'm not paying anything for it then.
UK democracy is a failed democracy. The last time a party got more than 50% of votes cast was 1931, and yet we have been railroaded by majorities since then, with little to no compromise or co-operation.
It should just be leased to Westminister. History has shown this is a sensible and reliable.
That is a broader debate about voting systems. All I will say is that there are ways to change that system but so far not enough people support changing it . I guess if you are Scottish you will be done with the House of Lords and FPTP come independence.
I wonder how much this thinking played a part during brexit when we were forcing the main landers to pay for our national bigotry? Because according to you, everyone in Europe should have had a vote on that.
I think not wanting to foot the bill for the EU certainly contributed significantly to the debate. The EU set up a legal process for countries that wanted to leave it. That is the difference here.
I don't think that England should have a vote on Scottish independence and the rest of the EU shouldn't have had a vote on Brexit.
The interesting thing I find in all of this is the arguments are now reversed with the SNP making Brexit like points while the rest of the UK make EU type demands.
The budget deficit thing is a bit of an unknown. Scotland paid interest on the UK deficit for many years when it was in surplus. Would probably play out in a weird way.
Probably a land lease kinda thing, like how the US screwed the UK in wwii. Give us 10 old destroyers for our new navy and you can have the base for 50 years. A definite bargaining chip though. Water security as a whole for the UK minus Scotland is an issue.
Not if the SNP refuse to have Trident in Scotland...
8) With independence, we can get rid of Trident in Scotland
https://www.snp.org/tridentfacts/
I have a limited understanding of economy, so forgive me if it's silly, but would having a currency valued lower than the pound and euro necessarily be a bad thing for Scotland? I thought it was quite useful for export-based economies?
There's wishing and hoping, and reality. Having no naval base as a red line entering negotiations would be suicidal. More likely they made a song and dance for the benefit of the electorate, then exacted a price for it staying there.
or tstaying there in the medium term e.g. they agree say a 25 year lease whoch allows the MOD to redevelop a base elsewhere whilst maintaining operational capacity with at the end of the 25 years the subs / nukes leaving and long term the objective being achieved but having extracted probably some pretty decent concessions in the rest of the negotations for the lease
Yea could see that.. and then the medium term turns into long term etc.... Extract what you can, play the 'oh we're only doing it for the economy/people' card, and carry on. (Land Lease was in WWII for some crappy outdated destroyers, and they are still here!)
I think the MOD and UK government would be keen to get the nukes back on UK land (or at least Uk waters) once they could redevelop a suitable base... not to say thwy wouldnt want to keep the base for something else non nuclear though (eg maintenence) on a lease agreement ... afterall there is a very bespoke and expensive bit of infrastructure there so it would probably make sense to all involved it had some use / delivered some value
it was already reversed, mate. Remember the indy ref came first. All the points made for Scottish independence were valid for Scotland, not so much for brexit which is why they sounded dumb. Scotland is not an entity to itself. Westminster dictates, as does the English voter. The U.K. never had had any issues of being told what to do by Brussels. Unless you wanna count things like human rights? The EU is an actual partnership with everyone have a fair say and fair vote. With the U.K., where England leads the rest must follow. Even when we don’t want to.
Scotland doesn’t have a voice in the U.K. Something that was made crystal clear with EVEL. It sounds on paper like it’s just something to address English only issues. But the reality is that it Barr’s any MP serving a Scottish constituency from becoming prime minister. Funny how that happened right after Gordon Brown talked about Scotland leading the U.K.
When all is said and done, the Scottish vote is worthless. And yes, we different. Scotland is more a socialist leaning country. England more capitalist leaning. And because the English voters outnumbers Scottish voters 10 to 1 we don’t get out pick. Ever. And to turn it the other way and have Scottish votes mean more the English votes is no solution as it’s that’s unfair to the English. So what is the solution? What can be done to make this an actual United Kingdom? I tell you what the solution isnt. It is t telling Scotland what it can and can’t do. And it sure as shit isnt some absentee prime ministry with stupid hair telling us that our democratic rights mean feck all. Because all that does is proves the point for independence. No matter how hard it is, and I’m under no illusions. It will be hard. But it’s worth it if for no other reason than never to have to listen to some fat rich cnut tell us what’s what and not have the voting power to boot him the feck out of his position.
So if you, and anyone else, want to make the case for Scotland to stay. Make it more appealing for us to stay. He’ll make it more appealing for everyone. I’m sure the north of England has a lot of the sam concerns as Scotland but with no means to break away from Westminster. If the subject of independence is ever to be finally out to bed, then things have to change. Because how it works now isn’t working for a lot of people. And not just Scotland.
It might be better to have a shiny new one in England which Scotland pays for as an exceptional cost sustained due to SI.
yeah and I guess we could always nuke them if they wont pay?... its not like they will be able to nuke us back or be a member of nato and get somebody to do it for them
https://www.thenational.scot/news/1...s-indy-scotland-fail-join-nato-without-nukes/
No I will pass on that. You voted to leave so you get to live with your choice and pay for it like all independent nations do.
I haven’t voted for anything as there’s nothing to vote on. what are you talking about? But clearly you just have a problem with Scottish people. And people wonder why some of us want to leave. “Better together” is a load of shit. A nonsense made up for those the English can control. When they cant control it, it’s brexit time.
"stay in the union and shut up, otherwise you can leave with no assets but still have to pay for the debt."
Grandstanding at its finest but fortunately, for as bad as politicians are, decisions aren't made by some overly aggressive anonymous arse on a football forum.
I remember the same grandstanding with Brexit. "Oh, WE'LL tell them EXACTLY how things are going to play out and the EU just has to ACCEPT it." Meanwhile, in the real world where real people have to make real decisions, the result of Brexit was.....FECK all.
Grandstanding at its finest but fortunately, for as bad as politicians are, decisions aren't made by some overly aggressive anonymous arse on a football forum.
I remember the same grandstanding with Brexit. "Oh, WE'LL tell them EXACTLY how things are going to play out and the EU just has to ACCEPT it." Meanwhile, in the real world where real people have to make real decisions, the result of Brexit was.....FECK all.
It shouldn't be too much for Scotland to ask Westminster, given the current political climate in the country, to have a more constructive response than just denying a second independence referendum. Ok, fine - but the divisions are deep and here to stay if things stay as they are.
I genuinely don't think Boris gives two hoots about Scotland on a personal level. What I do think he cares about is how his leadership will be seen by posterity. And the Churchillian image he's tried to foster with Brexit won't look good if he's the man in charge when the Union is broken up.
All this talk about who pays for Independence - should there ever be a yes vote for it, I sincerely hope Westminster send the same negotiators as they did to the EU for Brexit; I'm sure working out a deal on Scotland's future relationship with England would prove to be one of the easiest in human history.
I genuinely don't think Boris gives two hoots about Scotland on a personal level. What I do think he cares about is how his leadership will be seen by posterity. And the Churchillian image he's tried to foster with Brexit won't look good if he's the man in charge when the Union is broken up.
All this talk about who pays for Independence - should there ever be a yes vote for it, I sincerely hope Westminster send the same negotiators as they did to the EU for Brexit; I'm sure working out a deal on Scotland's future relationship with England would prove to be one of the easiest in human history.