Sir Jim reportedly deems ETH's position not a priority unless results are particularly dire - missed opportunity or the right decision?

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

28 in all comps, still, this is the worst start to a season in something like 90 years. It's not pretty, and it's the textbook definition of 'dire'.

As I say, in the league, we were getting 1.42 points per game when Ole was fired, and currently we’re on 1.55 points. So yeah, it’s been worse, and whilst it’s utter shite, I have zero faith a caretaker would suddenly make us miles better, Ragnick showed us that’s often pie in the sky stuff.

I want INEOS to hire & fire from top to bottom over the next 5 months, and use that time together with their new team, to select and hire a new manager for next season that fits the direction they want.

 

[Pes6Monster]

Woodward never chose ten Hag, so there's your problem, the people above the manager. Woodward, Arnold and Murtough have had made the wrong decisions when it comes to the big ones and that's because the structure above the manager needs sorting first.

SJR's lot is to improve us going forward.

Removing EtH is one thing, but replacing him with Potter? Seriously, Potter?

Fair play if it works but it most likely won't.

 

[Bondi77]

A report in the Guardian that will be someone writing a piece that is just common sense but brings the name of Manchester United into it...must be a quiet day.
And it warrants a thread of its own on here

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

SJR's lot is to improve us going forward.

Removing EtH is one thing, but replacing him with Potter? Seriously, Potter?

Fair play if it works but it most likely won't.

Is there even a single credible link to Potter?

 

[Pes6Monster]

A report in the Guardian that will be someone writing a piece that is just common sense but brings the name of Manchester United into it...must be a quiet day.
And it warrants a thread of its own on here

The best thing about the Guardian is the level
of people whinging in its BTL that United command too much attention. If you log in and state such early, you'll easily get a hundred recommends.

Hated, adored...

The G's football coverage is Kieron, Erik, Bruce and Danny dire, though.

 

[Pes6Monster]

Is there even a single credible link to Potter?

I certainly hope not.

I'd take Lord Voldemort before Potter.

You know what I mean.

 

[giorno]

Look it's a fecking takeover. Of course the first order of business is analysis and replacement of the executives. Those are the people who actually run the club. Once that is done, the new executives will then be tasked, as their first order of business, to do the same thing to the employees at the business level - which in this case would include the manager, his staff, the players, etc.

This is standard operating procedure. Of course the fecking manager isn't a priority at this time, he's just the manager(and there is currently nobody above him trusted to make decisions in his regard)

Fyi, the season was effectively written off the moment the sale was delayed to several months into it

 

[Mwooyo]

Its the right call. Manutd have lost their grip because we make so many critical decisions based on commercial or social media pressure and not footballing reasons.

ETH will save himself or fire himself by the end of the season...no need to do anything else. He himself has said that we dont have a consistent style because of injuries and promised that we would see a consistent style in Jan when everyone returns...well Jan is here and everyone is returning shortly.

Furthermore he doesn't have the excuse of no time on the training ground due to too many games because we are out of competition. His one job is to develop a consistent wining style...if he doesn't do that then the decision becomes obvious and it will be made by the football on the pitch..not social media pressure.

Same exact thing with the futures of Varane, Casemiro, Anthony, Greenwood etc...they should be made purely from a footballing perspective...we keep making all our critical decisions based on everything but the football and we will never get back to being a powerhouse until we revert. We will seek and not find until the day we do.

 

[crossy1686]

Woodward never chose ten Hag, so there's your problem, the people above the manager. Woodward, Arnold and Murtough have had made the wrong decisions when it comes to the big ones and that's because the structure above the manager needs sorting first.

Exactly, Murtough did, and seeing as he's the de facto DOF it's his job to make sure there's continuity between the managerial appointments to stop the mess we've been in. There's no suggestion we're just going to pick a different style manager because we did it in the past under a guy that had no interest in football.

 

[crossy1686]

As I say, in the league, we were getting 1.42 points per game when Ole was fired, and currently we’re on 1.55 points. So yeah, it’s been worse, and whilst it’s utter shite, I have zero faith a caretaker would suddenly make us miles better, Ragnick showed us that’s often pie in the sky stuff.

I want INEOS to hire & fire from top to bottom over the next 5 months, and use that time together with their new team, to select and hire a new manager for next season that fits the direction they want.

Rangnick wasn't a manager though, he was a DOF that stepped in to manage then told everyone who would listen the players were shit. We should really stop this notion that 'we've tried something once and it didn't work so we can't try it again', clubs all over the world do the same things we do but better because they have a plan when they make a change.

We need everyone that been appointed in the last 5 years to be removed from the club on the non playing side over the rest of the season and then we'll start to see these decisions work out in our favour.

 

[TheReligion]

I think given all the changes being muted with the structure and new staff this makes sense.

Classic way of problem solving and working out the actual issues methodically.

 

[RedSky]

Season is pretty much gone. We could have a short term bump and push us in contention for Top 4 with a new Manager bounce. But I'd rather they look at all options and take their time rather than panic into a mistake. Imagine it'll be cheaper getting rid of ETH in the Summer too.

Wake me up in a few months.

 

[Ballache]

Saying the season is over suggests there’s nothing to play for. CL qualification and a deep FA Cup run should still be in our scope.

Short-term thinking.
I'd rather miss the CL next season and build properly, than just sacking ETH without a plan.
We will have most of our players back soon, light schedule so ETH has every chance to at least improve the performance. If he fails and we have the structure in place, then you make a decision.
If INEOS already have a plan in mind, then by all means sack him. I just want us to avoid another bad decision.

 

[Plant0x84]

26 seasons of SAF and this is the 12th since he retired, makes it 38 seasons. Not half a century but not far off in the context of football.

He’s not even the worst manager since SAF retired, let alone ‘half a century’. It’s a ridiculous statement.

 

[Rio5]

Right call, we all know that this season is a bust, why waste necessary time looking into the manager when everyone else around him is failing also?

Most of those failing around him are chosen by him. And all off them are coached/led by him.

 

[giorno]

Saying the season is over suggests there’s nothing to play for. CL qualification and a deep FA Cup run should still be in our scope.

The ownership doesn't care right now. They can't care right now. The only thing they would have to care about would be if you were at risk of relegation

Takeover happened with the absolute worst timing. Make your peace with it

 

[Andersons Dietician]

Not worried, things will look worse by the summer. They will have another 6 months of pain and then will realise he is not the solution to any sort of improvement.

They will sack him, or next season is another write off.

People need to be a bit realistic here, next season is likely to already be a bit of a right off. All these people coming in isn’t going to be like someone waving a magic wand. Wouldn’t surprise me if it’s going to take a season for them to find out where the issues are and starting moving towards a better path.

There are no quick fixes here and I’m glad it seems Ineos are of the same opinion and realise a lot of things behind the scenes need looking at and changing. Hopefully then they can see the frauds on the pitch and get rid of most of them and start to buy more effectively.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

I certainly hope not.

I'd take Lord Voldemort before Potter.

You know what I mean.

Well it’s an odd one, not one credible source I can see (or you can offer up), has reported that SJR wants Potter yet you’ve mentioned it about a dozen times, almost once a day, always as a stick to beat SJR with.

Tis a bit odd.

 

[RedSky]

People need to be a bit realistic here, next season is likely to already be a bit of a right off. All these people coming in isn’t going to be like someone waving a magic wand. Wouldn’t surprise me if it’s going to take a season for them to find out where the issues are and starting moving towards a better path.

There are no quick fixes here and I’m glad it seems Ineos are of the same opinion and realise a lot of things behind the scenes need looking at and changing. Hopefully then they can see the frauds on the pitch and get rid of most of them and start to buy more effectively.

I actually think once we have a good setup then it won't take long for things to turn around. The trick is getting the right ones in who will work well together. These aren't inexperienced idiots, the people we're after are experienced professionals in their areas.

Obviously recruitment will take a little longer to get right, but a few good transfers can easily turn a team around.

Personally I expect a pretty quick and noticeable change in our prospects within the next 2-3 years.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

I actually think once we have a good setup then it won't take long for things to turn around. The trick is getting the right ones in who will work well together. These aren't inexperienced idiots, the people we're after are experienced professionals in their areas.

Obviously recruitment will take a little longer to get right, but a few good transfers can easily turn a team around.

Personally I expect a pretty quick and noticeable change in our prospects within the next 2-3 years.

I just imagine there would need to be huge internal reviews done, getting to know colleagues, systems in place, changing or modifying systems, that alone I would imagine would take up until the end of the season never mind planning for how to move forward in the transfer market. Identifying what is needed to start renovating the squad and so on.

I just don’t see there being a massive turn around before next season is underway. Maybe because I think the first team needs massive changes before it improves is somewhat giving me a bit of a bias towards it taking a season or two.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Rangnick wasn't a manager though, he was a DOF that stepped in to manage then told everyone who would listen the players were shit. We should really stop this notion that 'we've tried something once and it didn't work so we can't try it again', clubs all over the world do the same things we do but better because they have a plan when they make a change.

Oh we could try it again, we got a boost from Ole before it went to shit, but I’m sure it’s a 50/50 shot at best when you look around at the statistics of caretakers.
I don’t fancy us flying by the seats of our pants any longer, we did that with Scottish Dave, then with good World Cup LVG before dumping him because Jose suddenly became available. We hired Ole, despite being massively under qualified because he had a good honeymoon period. We then hired the DoF as caretaker (although he was a manager 2 years prior and now), because he was a trendy name.

Stop with this nonsense I say, and spend 5 months, (so little time in football), getting Blanc, Brailsford and the DoF and recruitment team in and be certain you are getting your man.

 

[Revan]

He’s not even the worst manager since SAF retired, let alone ‘half a century’. It’s a ridiculous statement.

I admit that there is an argument between him and Moyes. However, EtH spent far more and that would cause much more long-term damage.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

I admit that there is an argument between him and Moyes. However, EtH spent far more and that would cause much more long-term damage.

Well he’s currently beating Ole’s final PL season points per game (1.42 when Ole got sacked compared to ETH’s 1.55 now).

He beat Ole’s best ever points total last season and also won a trophy, something Ole hasn’t done.

If fired now, he’d leave a shit show, but surely you aren’t pretending Ole didn’t?

For me, they’ve all been wank besides Mourinho who won two trophies in his first season and then broke 80 points (the first man since SAF to do so) in his second season. And even he wasn’t good enough.

The rest are just “meh”, all the rest (LVG, Ole, ETH) barring Moyes had decent moments, all had shite moments.

 

[Raven]

Even though I don't think he's likely to turn it around, I think it's probably prudent to get the new football structure up and running before pulling the trigger on any major decisions.

 

[davidmichael]

Unless something drastic happens like losing to Wigan then going on a losing run following it of say 4-5 games I don’t see ETH getting sacked for the simple reason we don’t have the structure in place that Ratcliffe is wanting to put in place.

It’s clear we want to go with a footballing structure of Blanc as CEO, Ashworth as Director Of Football and Mitchell as Head Of Recruitment with Fletcher probably staying in his role as Technical Director to liaise between the first team and the reserves/academy but until that’s fully in place they probably won’t see any point in firing ETH even if going forward it’s the right thing to do.

I’d imagine that Ratcliffe has written this season off anyway so it’s simply a bedding in period to put the structure in place before the season is over and plan accordingly for the summer window and next season, I don’t think ETH will be at United beyond the end of this season though.

 

[Revan]

Well he’s currently beating Ole’s final PL season points per game (1.42 when Ole got sacked compared to ETH’s 1.55 now).

He beat Ole’s best ever points total last season and also won a trophy, something Ole hasn’t done.

If fired now, he’d leave a shit show, but surely you aren’t pretending Ole didn’t?

For me, they’ve all been wank besides Mourinho who won two trophies in his first season and then broke 80 points (the first man since SAF to do so) in his second season. And even he wasn’t good enough.

The rest are just “meh”.

He is also the only United manager post SAF who couldn’t even qualify for Europa League during the UCL campaign. I believe it is the worst campaign of an English team in the UCL history, and we conceded more goals than any EPL team ever did.

The football we play is the absolute worst we have played since SAF left. The table actually flatters us, both by watching us playing and by advanced metrics, we know that we should be in the bottom half of the table.

That is without accounting for signings which will take even longer to fix than Ole’s one which for most part, were dogshit.

I am not pretending that Ole was any good, he shouldn’t have been given the job in the first place. He should have been sacked during covid. He should have been sacked after we failed to pass the groups in UCL. He should have been sacked approximately 2 hours after the Europa League final. And he should have been sacked 5 times in the season he was finally sacked. He was awful, and I couldn’t think it can possibly get worse.

Then EtH came and said ‘hold my beer’.

 

[siw2007]

Think it would cost the club £15m to sack ETH now. As bad as results are right now, I’m not convinced that spending that sum of money is worth our while in order to throw in an interim manager who probably isn’t better but may or may not give us a bounce.

Ratcliffes plan seems sensible to me. The only way to change the fortunes of the club is to fix whatever is going wrong at the top. But, they can’t dither with it, they need to be pretty efficient with their audit so we can put the right people in charge as soon as possible.

 

[Someone]

Makes sense to have the new football structure in place before deciding on a new manager, however, the situation IS dire, and we're pretty much giving up whatever slim hopes we had of getting a CL spot.

 

[Gandalf Greyhame]

I think it makes sense to understand
- why the club has spent over a billion on transfers and not managed to produce a single title challenging team
- why every manager we have hired fails to succeed here, and
- why every top player we have both regresses in a team which is always less than the sum of its parts

before trying the Glazer button of restarting with a new manager and ending up with the same results.

 

[Lyng]

Seems like the sensible route to take.
Make sure to install a proper football structure above the manager before deciding on whether or not he can take us forward.

 

[Phil Osophy]

The structural problems are obvious but not all our managers failed in the same way.

Under Ole at this point (January in his second full season) we were sitting at the top of the Premier League, not 3 points away from 11th like now. We ended up 2nd, losing the EL final on penalties and scoring 125 goals that season, the most in 15 years. That was after being 3rd the previous year. Mourinho was 2nd too in his second season after winning not one, but two trophies in the previous one.

This season (ETH's second) we were 4th in a soft CL group conceding 15 goals in 6 games. Close to the 22 goals we've scored in the league... in 20 games. 8th at the moment, negative goal difference, 3 points away from the bottom half of the table. And out of the league cup at home in the second round, with Eddie Howe using that game as a training session.

There's an obvious difference with two managers who brought stability and kept us relatively solid and competitive for some time, unbeaten for long periods at times, capable of winning games away from home. And then you have ETH getting results for 6-7 months and being a mess from that point onwards, both results and performances wise.

One thing is failing as a manager because you're 2nd but didn't fight for the league, and after some time you lost the dressing room and got the sack. A natural 2-3 years cycle in football. But one can wonder if a better structure and cohesion in recruitment could have meant adding X points more to the table, allowing you to aim for something more at the peak of your tenure. I think the answer is no both for Jose and Ole, but it's a valid question.

And another thing is smelling like rotten fish for 10 consecutive months as we've been now, starting from the first season around March (before the injuries started) and not seeing the light at the end of the tunnel during that time. All this with the players trying and well behind the manager, by the way. That's sheer incompetence and there's no board or lack of structure to hide behind.

Ineos can plan in any way they want, but football has its own logic and at some point it becomes untenable. There's no manager who can resist losing games and getting ridiculed on a regular basis for months, no matter if there's a takeover or not. I can understand that they would want to focus on other areas, finish the season without changes and bring their man in the summer. But that will be the case if circumstances allow it. I'd suggest you all not betting a penny on ETH finishing the season with us. That's my friendly advice.

 

[foolsgold]

It's the right decision. Feels strange to say it but in modern football the first team manager isn't the most important figure in the backroom structure any more. It should be a quite interchangeable position with longer term appointments in charge of youth development, recruitment. The first team coaches job is execution of a pre-existing plan. We've given managers far too much authority at the club, this needs to end. Keeping ETH in position for now, says his role isn't the be all and end all.

 

[Bondi77]

The best thing about the Guardian is the level
of people whinging in its BTL that United command too much attention. If you log in and state such early, you'll easily get a hundred recommends.

Hated, adored...

The G's football coverage is Kieron, Erik, Bruce and Danny dire, though.

The Sun love a bit of pointless Manchester United coverage as well on a daily basis.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

It's the right decision. Feels strange to say it but in modern football the first team manager isn't the most important figure in the backroom structure any more. It should be a quite interchangeable position with longer term appointments in charge of youth development, recruitment. The first team coaches job is execution of a pre-existing plan. We've given managers far too much authority at the club, this needs to end. Keeping ETH in position for now, says his role isn't the be all and end all.

Perfect take on things.

 

[jadaba]

It's a sensible approach to take, anything that flirts with the possibility of sacking him so early on would only fuel media pressure and would appear as reckless posturing from the new man in charge, it'd add another layer of drama to a club that doesn't need it.

 

[lysglimt]

The way I see it - this season is gone - we might as well keep him until summer and if things don't improve, fire him as soon as the season ends. There are two things in ETH's favour - a) the injury situation and b) him giving youth a chance, and at least they have been taking the chance.

 

[tomaldinho1]

We've got to a point where losing 50 % of the games and having more or less nothing to play for by January is not 'dire'. Congrats to everyone who wanted this joker to buy the club.

This kind of emotional response is why we’ve done so poorly for so long now. One or two seasons of mediocrity is fine if we get to a better place. Otherwise it’s just rinse repeat of the last decade but with ever decreasing spending.

Ineos are doing the right thing. Sort out the recruitment team, set a clear direction for the club. Then change the coach.

 

[Nytram Shakes]

Right decision.
The priority 100% needs to be the footballing structure above (particularly recruitment structure) above the manager. I don't want any heavy recruitment of players or a manager until people like Murtough have been replaced by people who actually know what they are doing.
Once that's in place we can start looking at the manager. But we need a structure in place so that if we get to the stage were we have to replace the manager then there are people at the club who can assess what kind of candidate we actually need.

 

[adexkola]

Season is fecked, for sure, but truly believe we could have a positive bounce second half of the season with a change of manager now.

Define "a positive bounce".

Anything other than a serious push for the PL title, a deep run in Europe (oh shit we're out) or winning the FA cup emphatically isn't enough of a positive bounce for me

 

[The holy trinity 68]

Where’s your source on this? ETH has veto power on all incoming and outgoing transfers. This is well documented. You can say his first choice transfers were Haaland, Mbappe and Bellingham… well, we weren’t going to get them anyway. Watching Antony play every day in the Dutch League… well hell, he should have used his veto to stop the transfer, not suggest we bring him in — which he did do… His fingerprints were all over both transfer windows. His agent is Hojlund’s agent for chrissakes.

Weghorst? The DeJong fiasco? Lisandro? Malacia? Onana?

Where is your source other than him signing ex players. Like I said, these players were all on his list of priorities, which is why they were signed. He doesn't do the transfer dealings, he just presents the list of players he wants.