Slagging Giggs and Scholes off...

[Cheesy]

I see where you're coming from Brwned and I agree that people can be overly harsh on a club legend, but 39 isn't just a number; it's an older age. While Giggs was able to improve at the age of 35, he wouldn't have been the first or last player to ever do so.

39 is very different though, and I'd be surprised if he can properly re-invent himself as a winger. He can be useful popping on for a while because I still think his actual on the ball delivery can be good, however we can't afford to keep on carrying players in the squad when there's a limit on how many we can have, especially if that player is only going to be able to play sometimes.

It's not a case of people trying to be overly critical; it's simply accepting the fact that at 39, Giggs isn't what he once was and isn't going to reach anywhere near his best again. You can talk about 2008 all you want, but that was then and this is now. Times have changed and he's older now. As I say, I don't have a problem with him featuring sometimes because he does still offer something on occasion, but we can't afford to keep on carrying squad players who will only feature occasionally, just because of who they are.

 

[Carl]

Is everyone else expecting them to both start tomorrow?

 

[Brwned]

What is he doing now that's different to what he was doing in 2008? As far as I can see he was being criticised for exactly the same things while offering all of the same positive qualities. Honestly, I bet if you watched a random game from the same time in 07/08 he'd look almost identical. Bollocks to the idea he's being played just because of who he is. Absolute nonsense.

 

[Scarlett Dracarys]

Actually it does not matter what age a player is as long as he can produce the desired results. You can have an older player with more experience who will make smarter decisions or you can have a younger player with more stamina and vitality who makes the wrong decisions....As long as Giggs and Scholes can improve the game then their age is hardly an issue. Its just gets worrisome when they cannot keep up with a younger opposing team

 

[Carl]

It's not bollocks at all. He played for 120 minutes but he was economical, it was Fletcher who was sitting deep and Anderson who was busting a gut to get back after counters. Giggs spent the whole game drifting around midfield and made the occasional burst forward. It's revisionism to say anything otherwise.

He had a good game, I'm not denying that, but the team was built too accommodate him that day.

Not true at all. He was all over the place and was even sprinting past someone for the ball in the 120th minute. He was superb (stamina wise).

 

[Cheesy]

What is he doing now that's different to what he was doing in 2008? As far as I can see he was being criticised for exactly the same things while offering all of the same positive qualities. Honestly, I bet if you watched a random game from the same time in 07/08 he'd look almost identical. Bollocks to the idea he's being played just because of who he is. Absolute nonsense.

When he re-invented himself as a central midfielder, while he could be wasteful sometimes, he often had that knack of being able to pick out a killer pass when it mattered most. There were numerous instances of that in the 2010/2011 Champions League campaign towards the latter stages against the likes of Chelsea and Schalke where he had great games.

Towards the second half of last season though, he started finding those killer passes less and less often, and as a consequence became more wasteful in midfield and wasn't playing as well. I actually did defend him a few times during the latter part of last season because always going for it and looking for that killer pass was the way he worked in the centre, but I don't think he can really be defended too much now because despite some decent performances, he's nowhere near as good there now either.

As I say, he has something to offer occasionally, but do you think he should still be a regular player in the team? Because I'm struggling to see what he can offer apart from perhaps being brought on to provide some decent service from the wing, as I think his delivery is still good, but if we're chasing a game, then we'll generally bring on more energetic players who can change a game completely. If Giggs isn't going to be a regular, then should we really be hanging onto him? He's useful to have around the squad because of his experience, but the same could be done in a coaching role. I don't think he's completely done, but I do think it would hardly be the worst time for him to retire.

 

[Brwned]

I don't think he should be a regular in the team but then I don't understand why that's even in question. He's started 7 games in the league and Champions League this year, that's how he should be used. When Anderson, Fletcher and Young are unfit as was the case recently, he's a great option to have. I don't worry about him starting games at all. He can still be influential as he showed in the past week and will continue to show throughout the season. People talk about "experience" as this sort of indescribable intangible than sort of only exists in rhetoric and Sir Alex's head but his experience absolutely played a part in that Newcastle game for me.

He knew exactly what to do to lead that team, he never worried about getting us back into the game and he kept getting into those same threatening positions. He's a calming influence in our squad and with so many young players in the team you can be absolutely sure that has a big impact when they're on the pitch. It's not just a case of him telling them the right things in the dressing room and on the training ground. He really has been in that exact same position 100s of times and knows exactly how it'll play out as long as the lads keep their heads, and he sets a perfect example. Not everything he tries will come off and he will have numerous frustrating games every season but he keeps trying to do the right things. He's the most positive, creative player in our team. I don't see anyone replacing that when he leaves and I don't think his performances merit him leaving.

 

[Brophs]

One of the main things for me is that they should be used more in home games where we're more likely to be able to dominate other teams. In away games they get pressured much more and it's harder to really grind out a performance, particularly when Scholes doesn't have the legs to stop runners from midfield.

 

[RK]

I've retyped this post about 5 times, but I can't be arsed to write something constructive.

Some of the opinions on this forum are baffling.

 

[Decotron]

I've retyped this post about 5 times, but I can't be arsed to write something constructive.

Some of the opinions on this forum are baffling.

+ 1!

think everyones on the sauce already!

 

[Sandikan]

My point is that literally everything you have said about Giggs - all your wonderfully objective criticism - has been said about him almost 5 years ago and was defended for the exact same reason. "Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded". What's the difference between being 35 and 39? Most players are past it at 35 but Giggs simply isn't normal, you can't just decide he's past it by looking at his age. It's not the crucial factor. He's still in terrific shape. The only thing that's changed as he's gotten older (over the past 3-4 years, let's say) is the recovery time in between games, during games he's covering just as much ground as anyone. He was still out-running almost every other player on the pitch in the CL final at 37 - I think only Xavi covered more ground in fact. That stamina's clearly still there and if you really think the work he got through in that Chelsea game was anything other than phenomenal then perhaps you're not quite as objective as you think because he got praise from all over. The neutrals were just as impressed as the United fans. Thirty-fecking-nine and who gives a feck. Giggs certainly doesn't.

By all means voice your opinions about Giggs and you might well be right, no-one knows. I certainly don't have a clue. Just don't try and pass them off as some sort of admirably knowledgeable, objective viewpoints. They're just silly, uneducated opinions on an internet forums like everyone else's. Stop telling other people that their opinions are based on sentiment whereas yours are based on simply calling it as you see it. No, they're all based on the same thing.

Quality post.

Am sick of people moaning about him every game as if he's responsible for every bad display.

To even suggest that Fergie keeps him on as some kind of sentimentalism is just plain incredible.
This is a fellow who shipped out Cole, Van Nistelrooy, Yorke, Beckham an inch past their best.

Giggsy is a decent squad member still. He won't start that often, but can still do a job in the right set up.

 

[adexkola]

Sorry mate but that's sentimental nonsense.

To sum up the post, you'd rather see Giggs playing than someone with a more rounded game who can keep up with play in both directions, because it's Ryan Giggs and that is a privilege.

I couldn't disagree more. I've grown up with Giggs as my hero, as a 10 year old back in 96 I used to dribble around my garden pretending to be him and trying my hardest to copy his step overs and feints. I've followed his career and marvelled at a unique player, a player who has adapted his game like nobody thought he could, from a wing wizard using his boyish enthusiasm to a midfield maestro playing the way only a player with two decades of experience can. So to see him now as a shadow of his former self, I find it difficult. I don't want to remember him as this player.


In regards to the two points about them being at fault in the build up of two goals against Newcastle, is that not the same critical analysis every player is subject to after every game? Watch Neville on MNF and he'll go back in the build up to a goal and point out exactly these sorts of moments. I don't see why these two are immune to it.



It's incredibly naive of you to think that he's just going to go on forever, 39 is just a number? Just like 35 and when he was in his early 30's? After a bright start last season he tailed off towards December and barring the odd game (Chelsea being the only one that comes to mind when he had Fletcher doing the hard work behind him and Anderson doing the leg work next to him. His task was to drift around and pull the strings with no defensive responsibility.) and the odd spell here and there where he's been asked to do the same job. That's over a year now of being "off form", the problem is that it's not like other players out of form, it's not like his finishing has deserted him or his passing has gone astray, it's that he can't keep up with the game in the way a United player has to. United can't afford to carry a player that can't get forward and attack and then get back and cover a counter attack. Imagine Young put in a lack lustre challenge on the half way line and watched as his fullback breezed into acres of space and put a cross/shot in? He'd be castigated on here.

He and Scholes just don't the legs for it any more and it really isn't the taboo you think it is to suggest this. As a result of them playing, our play suffers greatly and of the 5 games we have lost this season, Giggs has been present for 4 of them including a performance against Tottenham I would put up there with one of the worst I have seen anyone play in a United shirt.

We've been left in a position where we have a player in our squad, who realistically is only useful for the single scenario of being in a position where we are either losing or drawing in the last 30 minutes and we need to break them down. Had both he and Scholes retired gracefully in the summer, we might have actually brought in a player or two who are able to contribute positively in both attack and defence during a full 90 minute game. That'd be a luxury to me, not seeing two of my heroes struggle to cover the ground they should and watch the game pass them by.

This.

 

[Amir]

I think Giggs showed against Swansea and Newcastle that he can still do a job - but on the wing, not in midfield. His tricks and his delivery compensate well for the loss of pace in a position that doesn't put a burden like in the middle. He had a purple patch as a midfielder in yesteryears but it's gone now. Scholes too can contribute here and there.

The problem is their position in the squad does not reflect that. They are apparently number 4 and 5 on our midfield list. They should be bonus players, but they are not. Whether because Fergie still thinks they can give him more than that, or simply because they take home good wages and we can't/won't just add one or two more players who will be ahead of them and limit their time on the pitch more, I don't know.

It's a bit of a catch 22. We shouldn't play them regularly, but their position in the squad means we'll need them at times so we may play them even when we don't have to just to make sure they remain sharp. One player which you have to handle carefully is OK, two is a bit of a challenge. Especially when their positions are a weakness for the team in terms of quality and depth.

 

[Platato]

Think the neville situation showed there's possibly some tinge of sentimentalism when it comes to Fergie and his golden generation. I find it even more baffling that some think the idea of Fergie being a tad bit sentimental towards these players as ridiculous. He's as ruthless as they come but that doesn't mean he has no soft spot. He's human after all and it wouldn't surprise me if at least 2% of him is sentimental towards these players.

The thing about Sir Alex is he doesn't dwell on things. So when they do go, we'll just move on as we usually do.

 

[Cheesy]

Quality post.

Am sick of people moaning about him every game as if he's responsible for every bad display.

To even suggest that Fergie keeps him on as some kind of sentimentalism is just plain incredible.
This is a fellow who shipped out Cole, Van Nistelrooy, Yorke, Beckham an inch past their best.

Giggsy is a decent squad member still. He won't start that often, but can still do a job in the right set up.

The difference with a lot of them, apart from Beckham, was that they were all signings as opposed to being part of that golden generation. With Beckham, it was a decade ago and the golden generation players weren't around for anywhere near as long as they have been now obviously, with the problems he had with Fergie.

It's not a silly thing to suggest. There was a bit of sentimentality with Neville probably, and it's perhaps more Fergie wanting to keep around the older players because of the experience they offer and because of how much they know about playing for the club and being a part of Fergie's United team. Whether the players should be kept around for that when they offer less than some of our younger, better players though, is the major question here, especially when squad spaces are limited.

 

[Brwned]

Yeah, Giggs is useless these days.

 

[kouroux]

Giggs has done fantastically when called upon.Match after match, he's earned himself more playing time

 

[Platato]

Giggs is a funny one. He was all about possession today. Played a few killer balls but really showed his experience and focused more on helping United maintain possession.

 

[Sandikan]

This thread will run and run all season!
Bad game = loads of people thundering on giving it abuse
good game = very quiet in comparison.

Didn't catch the game today, but i'm guessing it was the latter today

 

[RK]

Ryan Giggs Ryan Giggs running down the wing!
Ryan Giggs Ryan Giggs running down the wing!
Slagged off by cnuts,
Loved by true reds!
Ryan Giggs,
Ryan Giggs,
Ryan Giggs.

 

[Fergies Gum]

Well, Giggs had a good performance yesterday and surprise surprise, the doubters go in to hiding.

No doubt, they will be back the next time he has a bad game, calling for him to retire.

 

[Cold_Boy]

Well regarding Giggs, its SAF's fault cause he keeps playing him in a two man midfiled most of the times.

As an left Attacking mid or Winger, Giggs is still a very good player for us.

With regards to Scholes, apart from a 3-4 bad games, Scholes has been mostly very good since his return from the dead.

 

[Sixpence]

He's been in a good bit of form over Xmas which is great to see. One thing has emerged though, he should never play in the centre again. He still has quality from the wide area. But I still maintain Scholes should not be starting matches at all.

 

[Brwned]

He's been in a good bit of form over Xmas which is great to see. One thing has emerged though, he should never play in the centre again. He still has quality from the wide area. But I still maintain Scholes should not be starting matches at all.

What is it that makes him now incapable of playing in the middle that doesn't hinder him from playing out wide? Couldn't it just be that he's been typically inconsistent when played in the middle and/or been playing without the right players around him?

I reckon if Cleverley and Anderson were out (very possible) and we had to choose from Scholes/Fletcher/Giggs then Giggsy's still a great option. If we played a front 6 of Van Persie, Rooney, Nani/Young/Valencia, Carrick, Kagawa and Giggs we'd have Kagawa starting out wide and Giggs in the middle. And I think we'd be better off for it than vice-versa. Giggs' best performances in the middle tended to come when we played Park wide left so they could rotate and Giggs could overlap, me might see that with Kagawa.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Glad to see giggsy recover his form, he's a top pro and deserves to go out on a high.

I don't want him to be forced to retire from being shit - I want him to make that call.

 

[Sixpence]

What is it that makes him now incapable of playing in the middle that doesn't hinder him from playing out wide? Couldn't it just be that he's been typically inconsistent when played in the middle and/or been playing without the right players around him?

I reckon if Cleverley and Anderson were out (very possible) and we had to choose from Scholes/Fletcher/Giggs then Giggsy's still a great option. If we played a front 6 of Van Persie, Rooney, Nani/Young/Valencia, Carrick, Kagawa and Giggs we'd have Kagawa starting out wide and Giggs in the middle. And I think we'd be better off for it than vice-versa. Giggs' best performances in the middle tended to come when we played Park wide left so they could rotate and Giggs could overlap, me might see that with Kagawa.

Probably because he's not at all physical, his legs are going and when he's alongside Carrick both of them sit far too deep. And our record this season when he's played there speaks for itself. When he's on the left he is naturally more comfortable as he's played there for 20 years and he is excellent at picking and timing passes to the overlapping full back. He has more of an impact with his vision and creativity, which is still excellent, high up the pitch around the box, than picking the ball up deep in midfield where he isn't really effective at all for me.

 

[adexkola]

Giggs has a run of bad form, gets back in shape, and that invalidates the criticism.

The Caf, ladies and gentlemen.

 

[Amir]

Giggs has a run of bad form, gets back in shape, and that invalidates the criticism.

The Caf, ladies and gentlemen.

Now, now, let's not go overboard. He's done well in the last few games and also shown his place is on the left wing. I still don't think he can do the job in the middle anymore and hope we don't see him there again. If we do, I'm pretty sure this topic will be raised again.

It's never his fault, though, or Scholesy's. It's the manager. But I also think we can say he's seen the same things other have. If he thought Scholes and Giggs were up to the task in the middle, there's no way he would have kept them out of the team or in Giggs away away from the center in such a crowded christmas fixtures list.

 

[Brwned]

Probably because he's not at all physical, his legs are going and when he's alongside Carrick both of them sit far too deep. And our record this season when he's played there speaks for itself. When he's on the left he is naturally more comfortable as he's played there for 20 years and he is excellent at picking and timing passes to the overlapping full back. He has more of an impact with his vision and creativity, which is still excellent, high up the pitch around the box, than picking the ball up deep in midfield where he isn't really effective at all for me.

So did his record when he played left wing before the last couple of weeks, no? I think having someone like Kagawa out there would negate the issues of our midfield playing too deep because it'd basically be having an extra midfielder to drop back and rotate with. That's what allowed Giggs to run things in the CL knockout stages in 2011 when Park gave a bit of extra legs to the midfield. Even when he was getting praise from all-comers for dominant displays against top sides he had those same issues of being not at all physical and needing Carrick to sit deeper to cover for him. What has changed drastically since then that now makes him completely useless there? His legs are going? You say that as if playing out on the wing is easy on the legs...

 

[Brightonian]

So did his record when he played left wing before the last couple of weeks, no? I think having someone like Kagawa out there would negate the issues of our midfield playing too deep because it'd basically be having an extra midfielder to drop back and rotate with. That's what allowed Giggs to run things in the CL knockout stages in 2011 when Park gave a bit of extra legs to the midfield. Even when he was getting praise from all-comers for dominant displays against top sides he had those same issues of being not at all physical and needing Carrick to sit deeper to cover for him. What has changed drastically since then that now makes him completely useless there? His legs are going? You say that as if playing out on the wing is easy on the legs...

Park isn't Kagawa. They both work hard but you definitely don't want Kagawa dropping deep, he needs to be up at the end of the pitch where he can do the damage whenever possible. Young would be a better shout for the argument you're making.

Can't say I agree with it though. Yes, ideally you need energy and young legs out on the wing, but if you don't have them it does a lot less damage to the team's game as a whole than a midfielder who doesn't have the energy to do his job.

 

[Fergus' son]

I remember when people used to say he didn't have the legs to play on the wing anymore, and that the central berth is more suited.

 

[Brwned]

Yes, I know they're fundamentally different players. I don't agree at all that he should be limited to playing as an attacking player in and around the box though. Yesterday he was played as a centre mid purely to give Carrick a rest but I can guarantee he'll be played there more times throughout the season and he will absolutely take on midfield duties no matter where he's playing, IMO. Coming in off the wing he will drop to the halfway line and try to orchestrate attacks from deeper and when he does that Giggs will take advantage of the space. Young can't play in midfield, he's an attacker and nothing else IMO which is why he spends so much time as a striker when playing in the hole for England/Villa or out wide for us. It's not about running around it's about having an extra body in the middle who can play like a midfielder. Kagawa absolutely can.

I don't think Giggs lacks the energy to play either role personally and I really do find it amazing that anyone could watch that Chelsea performance and think he does.

 

[londonredmaniac]

Now where is that Brittany Spears video?

 

[Amir]

I remember when people used to say he didn't have the legs to play on the wing anymore, and that the central berth is more suited.

And it made a lot of sense. But his trickery and delivery can still provide a lot on the wing even if his legs aren't fully in it. In the center, what he can still do can't quite cover it anymore the same way. There's such a difference when we use a more energetic player like Cleverley.

 

[adexkola]

And it made a lot of sense. But his trickery and delivery can still provide a lot on the wing even if his legs aren't fully in it. In the center, what he can still do can't quite cover it anymore the same way. There's such a difference when we use a more energetic player like Cleverley.

It made a lot of sense because it was true! The 07/08 season he was a shadow of the player he was last year. The goal at Wigan didn't change that.

 

[Platato]

I remember when people used to say he didn't have the legs to play on the wing anymore, and that the central berth is more suited.

That's funny because in either position, you have to cover a lot of ground.

 

[Platato]

Brwned, I dont understand your latest post. How exactly was Giggs started as a CM against Wigan?

 

[Brwned]

I was talking about Kagawa then when he was brought on for Carrick. I thought he played decently there particularly given Cleverley is far from his ideal partner in a midfield two.

 

[Fergus' son]

That's funny because in either position, you have to cover a lot of ground.

I know, that's why I find it strange people jumping from the 'he cant play on the wing' bandwagon to the 'he should only play on the wing' bandwagon whenever it suits.

 

[Amir]

I know, that's why I find it strange people jumping from the 'he cant play on the wing' bandwagon to the 'he should only play on the wing' bandwagon whenever it suits.

The wing is very much an attacking position while the midfield in a 4-4-2 is much more 50/50. You can get away with a lot more on the wing and it won't affect the entire team like the midfield does. Giggs attacking abilities mean he's still got something to offer on the wing, which is certainly unique. But you need better versatility in the center.