So Jose Was Right?

[lex talionis]

As I stated I opened this thread a long time ago and at the time I asked the question. Just remember before ETH this season what I said in the OP was that Pogba was a virus(showing it in Juve) Martial he didn’t rate(injuries don’t help) and also remember on here in the summer most wanted rid of Rashford plus Shaw was still inconsistent.

Right now ETH has proven some of Jose’s points to be wrong and I’m happy they are

I truly didn’t pay any attention to who started the thread so no issues there, but there was never a point in time immediately after José was sacked or a year later or six months ago where it could have been argued that José was right about how he managed the club.

Let’s talk about Martial for a moment. Yes, we all flog him now, myself included, but Martial was far more productive at United at the time than Alexis ever was. There was no need to bring in Alexis and give him insane wages and banish Martial. At the time we were all wondering WTF but we trusted the manager. Our trust was misguided.

 

[dal]

To be fair to Mourinho before he brought Sanchez, Rashford and Martial were having great seasons, he messed it up for himself.

 

[Herman Toothrot]

I made this thread along time ago and before Ten Haag a lot of what Jose said was true. Also just because he signed Pogba doesn’t take away his point as he was right to sign him for his quality but then seen what his attitude etc was like.

Jose won us trophies and is still the best manager we had since SAF but I agree that it was dark and it’s finally looking positive under a proper manager that plays the right way and has the right standards for this club

Yeah, I didn't spot that.

The point remains the same. He signed Pogba for massive money, it's his failure that he couldn't make a consistent player out of him. He was wrong to sign him and failed in developing him. He wasn't right at any point. The lack of due diligence before spending that much money to controversially re-sign Pogba is a massive failure on Mourinho's part.

While Mourinho did win trophies, let's not over-use that plural. He won two trophies and none of them were big honours.

To be honest, Mourinho could have won the lot and I still wouldn't have liked him.

His football is terrible, it always has been and it's underpinned by his snidey, malcontent demeanour. That Europa final was dreadful and our cowardly performances in the Champions League were humiliating.

The only thing attractive about Mourinho is his IP. He's a big brand but he'd run out of road when he arrived at Old Trafford. Take away the relentless, machine-like success he had at Chelsea and all that was left was a grumpy, bitter old man.

 

[HookedOnAPhelan]

Ironic as it seems he still has you wound up...

You seem wound up too mate, by me calling Mourinho a wanker I assume..?

 

[JPRouve]

Yeah, I didn't spot that.

The point remains the same. He signed Pogba for massive money, it's his failure that he couldn't make a consistent player out of him. He was wrong to sign him and failed in developing him. He wasn't right at any point. The lack of due diligence before spending that much money to controversially re-sign Pogba is a massive failure on Mourinho's part.

While Mourinho did win trophies, let's not over-use that plural. He won two trophies and none of them were big honours.

To be honest, Mourinho could have won the lot and I still wouldn't have liked him.

His football is terrible, it always has been and it's underpinned by his snidey, malcontent demeanour. That Europa final was dreadful and our cowardly performances in the Champions League were humiliating.

The only thing attractive about Mourinho is his IP. He's a big brand but he'd run out of road when he arrived at Old Trafford. Take away the relentless, machine-like success he had at Chelsea and all that was left was a grumpy, bitter old man.

Also if we use trophies in favor of Mourinho then why is Pogba targetted? Pogba was the player of the tournament when we won the EL.

 

[SirReginald]

Yeah, I didn't spot that.

The point remains the same. He signed Pogba for massive money, it's his failure that he couldn't make a consistent player out of him. He was wrong to sign him and failed in developing him. He wasn't right at any point. The lack of due diligence before spending that much money to controversially re-sign Pogba is a massive failure on Mourinho's part.

While Mourinho did win trophies, let's not over-use that plural. He won two trophies and none of them were big honours.

To be honest, Mourinho could have won the lot and I still wouldn't have liked him.

His football is terrible, it always has been and it's underpinned by his snidey, malcontent demeanour. That Europa final was dreadful and our cowardly performances in the Champions League were humiliating.

The only thing attractive about Mourinho is his IP. He's a big brand but he'd run out of road when he arrived at Old Trafford. Take away the relentless, machine-like success he had at Chelsea and all that was left was a grumpy, bitter old man.

1st bolded- he requested Pogba but Woodward signed him for massive money. Coach doesn’t dictate a fee or have any input in it. He signed him because his typical formula is playmaker + Target man. It worked with Deco/McCarthy, Drogba/Lampard, Sneijder/Milito, Benzema/Ronaldo (to some degree though not the typical archetypes), Fabregas/Costa and it began well with Pogba/Ibra.

2nd point- Coaches can only do so much for a player. If they aren’t right mentally it’ll never work. Pogba is a more successful Balotelli, guys nuts. It is clear he was distracted off field with his brand, like Rashford and Lingard. He tried to get him to focus, failed and then wanted him gone. Not all the blame should be on him for that.

3rd point- Unless he ignored scouting reports, this is not his job. Like point 1 and partially point 2 you are trying to pin the blame on him for something he isn’t paid to do or has no control over. I get you don’t like him but your agenda is so blatant.

4th point- What trophies have you won since Fergie left? Stop being entitled, your side has massively underachieved in the last 10 years and your trying to shit over the few trophies you have won.

5th point- Brownie points for admitting your agenda

Last point- He has won a LOT more than you’re giving him credit for, at multiple clubs. His biggest fault besides the toxicity is not being able to keep up with modern football. But you can’t shit on a guy who has won the champions league twice, Europa league twice and numerous League and domestic trophies.

 

[Lemoor]

1st bolded- he requested Pogba but Woodward signed him for massive money. Coach doesn’t dictate a fee or have any input in it.

He absolutely throws a tantrum every time he doesn't get his new toy though.

 

[roonster09]

. Pogba is a more successful Balotelli, guys nuts

fecking hell how clueless can one be on this

 

[mitchmouse]

Yep, nothing to do with a completely different midfield and style of play, new manager etc. It's because pogba isn't here, obviously.

He doesn't play for United anymore, you're not winning internet points for saying mourinho was right. It's debatable he was right about pogba and even if he was, a broken clock is right twice a day. Neither of them are at United anymore, let it go.

and yet here you are in the thread... and I don't grade my life on "internet points" whatever the hell those are. There's a question, I replied, but you can go on believing that the clown was good for us, that's your right

 

[Herman Toothrot]

1st bolded- he requested Pogba but Woodward signed him for massive money. Coach doesn’t dictate a fee or have any input in it. He signed him because his typical formula is playmaker + Target man. It worked with Deco/McCarthy, Drogba/Lampard, Sneijder/Milito, Benzema/Ronaldo (to some degree though not the typical archetypes), Fabregas/Costa and it began well with Pogba/Ibra.

2nd point- Coaches can only do so much for a player. If they aren’t right mentally it’ll never work. Pogba is a more successful Balotelli, guys nuts. It is clear he was distracted off field with his brand, like Rashford and Lingard. He tried to get him to focus, failed and then wanted him gone. Not all the blame should be on him for that.

3rd point- Unless he ignored scouting reports, this is not his job. Like point 1 and partially point 2 you are trying to pin the blame on him for something he isn’t paid to do or has no control over. I get you don’t like him but your agenda is so blatant.

4th point- What trophies have you won since Fergie left? Stop being entitled, your side has massively underachieved in the last 10 years and your trying to shit over the few trophies you have won.

5th point- Brownie points for admitting your agenda

Last point- He has won a LOT more than you’re giving him credit for, at multiple clubs. His biggest fault besides the toxicity is not being able to keep up with modern football. But you can’t shit on a guy who has won the champions league twice, Europa league twice and numerous League and domestic trophies.

Ah, a Chelsea fan. I thought there must be some reasoning behind the unravelled nature of your post. Must be weird defending the rein of your clubs biggest hero at a club you briefly fancied as a rival.

He was brilliant for you, I'm sure it's heartbreaking to see a career burn so bright for only a small time, but at least the best bits were on the Russians rubel.

He was an expensive, sullen failure here and much of it was of his own making. Manchester United should never have allowed him to darken our door way.

 

[In Rainbows]

and yet here you are in the thread... and I don't grade my life on "internet points" whatever the hell those are. There's a question, I replied, but you can go on believing that the clown was good for us, that's your right

He was one of our better players during his time here. The reason he got so much slack is because of his price tag, and that he didn't live up to that world beater price. Still wasn't bad for most of his time here no matter how much his reputation suffered through his injuries, agent talks, etc... Ultimately it was the right move to not bring him back for massive wages, when his injury record is appalling.

 

[astracrazy]

You seem wound up too mate, by me calling Mourinho a wanker I assume..?

Oh yeah, real wound up.

 

[Kellyiom]

Can you point to a source?

SAF has never made a secret of his dislike for Raiola, but I’ve never seen reports of any issues with Pogba himself.

That said, I’m not convinced that Raiola was the right agent to handle his career. His antics were perfect for the likes of Zlatan, but Pogba could have done with someone more paternalistic.

I vaguely remember something along the lines that SAF felt Pogba thought he was a better player than he was and it would limit his development. I don't know if he was referring to his mentality or temperament but I could see it being implied in that way older generations can sometimes say less than flattering words, not accounting for the current 'etiquette'. A bit of a French version of whoever called Paul 'Gazza' Gascoigne 'daft as a brush'.

Who did say that about Gazza anyway? Anyone, anyone, Bueller?

 

[Kellyiom]

Yeah for me the biggest red flag was the end of the Real Madrid stint when half the squad didn’t talk to him. Then he did the same at Chelsea. His tactics were outdated and his ego was too big to accept it.

Yeah, it left me in a bad quandary because I've never liked him but then obviously you have to get 100% behind him. That eye-poking stunt he did on the coach was awful, can't remember his name but he was very ill wasn't he? And even then Mourinho tried justifying it and wriggling out of it. The best outcome was the material it gave David Squires the Guardian cartoonist, but yes, we did get the Europa League so credit where it's due.

 

[The Corinthian]

We should have got Mourinho immediately after SAF left. He would have stayed for a 3 seasons, and the third season would have been crap but it would have been a better succession plan and we would have picked up a couple of trophies on the way as the squad was reshaped.

 

[Revaulx]

I vaguely remember something along the lines that SAF felt Pogba thought he was a better player than he was and it would limit his development. I don't know if he was referring to his mentality or temperament but I could see it being implied in that way older generations can sometimes say less than flattering words, not accounting for the current 'etiquette'. A bit of a French version of whoever called Paul 'Gazza' Gascoigne 'daft as a brush'.

Far enough. Again, it suggests that Pogba might have fared better with a different agent.

Who did say that about Gazza anyway? Anyone, anyone, Bueller?

Bobby Robson at Italia ‘90, apparently.

 

[Kellyiom]

Far enough. Again, it suggests that Pogba might have fared better with a different agent.


Bobby Robson at Italia ‘90, apparently.

Ahh! right, cheers mate. Brings back memories of the dentist's chair!

 

[sugar_kane]

Right back then? Maybe. Not sure how it's relevant today though since 90% of the team he had has gone and we bar owners we have a new footballing hierarchy in place. Who's left that he took issue with, Shaw, Rashford & Martial? I would say he's been proved wrong for 2 out of 3.

Let's not forget this guy wanted to sign Harry Maguire, he thought McTominay was our player of the season, and that's before we get into the fact that he threw all his support behind getting Pogba back in the club.

Like anyone - whether manager, pundit or fan, he got some things right. He also got a shitload wrong.

 

[GueRed]

A serious manager who wanted to win trophies (won two in first season with us), unfortunately we dont have serious owners.

Woodward and the Glazers thought they knew more about football than Mourinho, blocking sales of certain players (martial) giving him Pogba etc

Mourinho was right about a lot of things Pogba, Martial, Rashford not being a natural CF.

it's the way he went about it which was the main issue for me, publicly criticising players.

when things went well it was fine, he was great but through adversity he was pain in the arse and negativity spreads.

When he wasnt backed by the board in summer 2018 he threw his toys out of the pram and virtually gave up. I would've respected him if he quit there and then.

Instead he sulked his way into the new season and eventually the sack.

 

[Real Name]

A serious manager who wanted to win trophies (won two in first season with us), unfortunately we dont have serious owners.

Woodward and the Glazers thought they knew more about football than Mourinho, blocking sales of certain players (martial) giving him Pogba etc

Mourinho was right about a lot of things Pogba, Martial, Rashford not being a natural CF.

it's the way he went about it which was the main issue for me, publicly criticising players.

when things went well it was fine, he was great but through adversity he was pain in the arse and negativity spreads.

When he wasnt backed by the board in summer 2018 he threw his toys out of the pram and virtually gave up. I would've respected him if he quit there and then.

Instead he sulked his way into the new season and eventually the sack.

He also bought a ton of dross we still haven't got rid of all.

 

[Big Ben Foster]

He also bought a ton of dross we still haven't got rid of all.

Consequence of having a backwards structure where the manager is the de facto chief scout and DOF.

 

[MadDogg]

A serious manager who wanted to win trophies (won two in first season with us), unfortunately we dont have serious owners.

Woodward and the Glazers thought they knew more about football than Mourinho, blocking sales of certain players (martial) giving him Pogba etc

Mourinho was right about a lot of things Pogba, Martial, Rashford not being a natural CF.

it's the way he went about it which was the main issue for me, publicly criticising players.

when things went well it was fine, he was great but through adversity he was pain in the arse and negativity spreads.

When he wasnt backed by the board in summer 2018 he threw his toys out of the pram and virtually gave up. I would've respected him if he quit there and then.

Instead he sulked his way into the new season and eventually the sack.

'Giving' him Pogba? The player that Mourinho chased all transfer window 12 months earlier at Chelsea, then wanted again when he came here. That was something that both Mourinho and Woodward quite clearly agreed on and both wanted to sign.

Mourinho's transfer record with us was bad. Almost every player that we know he wanted that he didn't get would also have, in hindsight based on what they did after that, been a failure. Maybe Perisic for a year or two would have been good, but the rest of them? He badly mismanaged a lot of our younger talented players who pretty much all went backwards during his time, he had his favourite players who played every single game even though they were by far the worst performing, our entire attacking gameplan was basically just expecting players to pull off some individual magic without any structure at all, he destroyed the morale of pretty much the entire dressing room with a combination of his own toxicity, incompetence and his public attacks on players to try to save his own arse, and he was more focused on making a point (both to the board and to the media) than actually doing the right thing for the team.

Mourinho was right about nothing except problems that he himself created.

 

[Herman Toothrot]

A serious manager who wanted to win trophies (won two in first season with us), unfortunately we dont have serious owners.

Woodward and the Glazers thought they knew more about football than Mourinho, blocking sales of certain players (martial) giving him Pogba etc

Mourinho was right about a lot of things Pogba, Martial, Rashford not being a natural CF.

it's the way he went about it which was the main issue for me, publicly criticising players.

when things went well it was fine, he was great but through adversity he was pain in the arse and negativity spreads.

When he wasnt backed by the board in summer 2018 he threw his toys out of the pram and virtually gave up. I would've respected him if he quit there and then.

Instead he sulked his way into the new season and eventually the sack.

He bought Pogba and wanted Maguire.

He also bought Lindelof and Bailey.

Please stop bumping this thread without first engaging your brain.

 

[Real Name]

Consequence of having a backwards structure where the manager is the de facto chief scout and DOF.

Point still stands. Not to mention regularly throwing players under the bus and other things.

 

[Lecland07]

Whether he was the one who decided on the players is questionable. He didn't seem to want Fred, but we still signed him.

Our signings have been poor for years, so I would put the blame of signings on the club as it is too consistently bad under Woodward. The first transfer window that is good is the one where the CEO has changed.

 

[Big Ben Foster]

Whether he was the one who decided on the players is questionable. He didn't seem to want Fred, but we still signed him.

Our signings have been poor for years, so I would put the blame of signings on the club as it is too consistently bad under Woodward. The first transfer window that is good is the one where the CEO has changed.

This.

As bad as their respective transfers were, I struggle to blame Jose and LVG for them because it shouldn't be their remit as manager.

 

[criticalanalysis]

Whether he was the one who decided on the players is questionable. He didn't seem to want Fred, but we still signed him.

Our signings have been poor for years, so I would put the blame of signings on the club as it is too consistently bad under Woodward. The first transfer window that is good is the one where the CEO has changed.

He was waxing lyrical about how it's always nice to have a Brazilian player and their qualities right before signing him.

He's got loads of contacts in Portugal and was talking about wanting a classy ball player centre before signing Lindelof....and then trashing his aerial abilities as a pundit afterwards, when right on cue the Swede mis-timed a header in the warm up.

Feck Mourinho.

 

[Lecland07]

He was waxing lyrical about how it's always nice to have a Brazilian player and their qualities right before signing him.

He's got loads of contacts in Portugal and was talking about wanting a classy ball player centre before signing Lindelof....and then trashing his aerial abilities as a pundit afterwards, when right on cue the Swede mis-timed a header in the warm up.

Feck Mourinho.

And proceeded to barely play him. He obviously didn't ever rate Fred.

4 permanent managers over 9 years and every transfer window was bad. It is clear the responsibility is on the club when that happens.

I don't think we really signed the players the managers wanted, to be honest. I mean Moyes wanted players like Fabregas and Kroos later on etc. but we ended up with Fellaini. Did he really want Fellaini or was that just what the club offered as they were incompetent?

Van Gaal wanted Thiago.

It sounds like, from what the players have said, that we had a pretty good chance of signing both Thiago and Kroos, but didn't go for either in the end. That for me is classic bad club planning. We could have had a midfield containing both.

That is why I don't put the blame of transfers on the managers.

 

[el3mel]

He was waxing lyrical about how it's always nice to have a Brazilian player and their qualities right before signing him.

He's got loads of contacts in Portugal and was talking about wanting a classy ball player centre before signing Lindelof....and then trashing his aerial abilities as a pundit afterwards, when right on cue the Swede mis-timed a header in the warm up.

Feck Mourinho.

The player was getting signed anyway so what, he's supposed to praise the deal. Weren't people here fine with Ten Hag praising Maguire while planning to sell him in summer?

And regardless of Fred being his signing or the club's, Fred has been a successful signing so far.

 

[Bubz27]

This.

As bad as their respective transfers were, I struggle to blame Jose and LVG for them because it shouldn't be their remit as manager.

What about training, coaching and managing those players?

 

[Big Ben Foster]

What about training, coaching and managing those players?

What does that have anything to do with the point I made about transfers? I never said Jose did nothing wrong or should be absolved of criticism. His position was untenable and sacking him was the right decision given the circumstances.

 

[Bubz27]

What does that have anything to do with the point I made about transfers? I never said Jose did nothing wrong or should be absolved of criticism. His position was untenable and sacking him was the right decision given the circumstances.

Isn't the overall point about Jose and his tenure? Or was it just about transfers at the moment?

 

[Suedesi]

Mourinho is clever, and he will find a way to make himself look good no matter what. I respect the man, he's a good/great manager, just not the right fit for us.

 

[Big Ben Foster]

Isn't the overall point about Jose and his tenure? Or was it just about transfers at the moment?

This thread is primarily about Jose's assessment of our players, but the posts I was responding to focused solely on transfers.

 

[Bubz27]

This thread is primarily about Jose's assessment of our players, but the posts I was responding to focused solely on transfers.

In that case pardon my confusion.

 

[GueRed]

no doubt a lot of bitter, rattled Pogba and Martial FC anti-Mourinho type in this thread.

 

[GueRed]

He bought Pogba and wanted Maguire.

He also bought Lindelof and Bailey.

Please stop bumping this thread without first engaging your brain.

He was offered Pogba by Woodward.

The deal was in the initial stages before LVG's sacking.

Pogba was Woodward's flash marquee signing.

 

[GueRed]

'Giving' him Pogba? The player that Mourinho chased all transfer window 12 months earlier at Chelsea, then wanted again when he came here. That was something that both Mourinho and Woodward quite clearly agreed on and both wanted to sign.

Mourinho's transfer record with us was bad. Almost every player that we know he wanted that he didn't get would also have, in hindsight based on what they did after that, been a failure. Maybe Perisic for a year or two would have been good, but the rest of them? He badly mismanaged a lot of our younger talented players who pretty much all went backwards during his time, he had his favourite players who played every single game even though they were by far the worst performing, our entire attacking gameplan was basically just expecting players to pull off some individual magic without any structure at all, he destroyed the morale of pretty much the entire dressing room with a combination of his own toxicity, incompetence and his public attacks on players to try to save his own arse, and he was more focused on making a point (both to the board and to the media) than actually doing the right thing for the team.

Mourinho was right about nothing except problems that he himself created.

Mourinho was right about Martial being flaky and unreliable, Luke Shaw living an unprofessional lifestyle (he's grown up now he has a family), Pogba being a virus (virus is harsh) and Rashford not being a natural centre forward.

 

[lsd]

Really unsure how any United fan can defend Mourinho or think we were better off with him.

His football was terrible, he had no class and was too quick blaming the players for everything.

His transfers were mostly poor and he was woeful in improving players or bringing through young players.

 

[Fabio Rochemback]

He wanted to sign Willian and Maguire, and also wanted to spend £45m on Perisic (which is more like 70m now)