Great way to make your point …no doubt a lot of bitter, rattled Pogba and Martial FC anti-Mourinho type in this thread.
So Jose Was Right?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
He is a smart man. Of course he was right about some things, but he made many mistakes himself, and I honestly hated the toxic environment he got us into.
EtH inherited a toxic locker room, and has dealt with it was authority, and class. He hasn't muddied the clubs name to prove some players he has are not wanted.
Us and Jose were just a bad fit. I like him more the further away he is from this club.
EtH inherited a toxic locker room, and has dealt with it was authority, and class. He hasn't muddied the clubs name to prove some players he has are not wanted.
Us and Jose were just a bad fit. I like him more the further away he is from this club.
Jose fans are the worst. He was a horrific Manager for us, left the club in ruins with a host of awful signings.
It's been 4-5 years and they are like the shit that won't flush.
They resurface with their toxic shite. Imagine siding with a Manager that belittled the club and pretty much burnt it down. Weird people.
Even a clock as broken as Jose will be right twice a day.
As I’ve said before I’m not a fan but why is so hard for someone to accept he was right about a lot of things and is one of the greatest managers in football, easily top 15-20 of all time and at the same time he failed here at Man United
A manager is supposed to help develop their young players. Not consistently shit-talk them and drop them from the team for his own favourites even when the youngsters are performing better, and going out of his way to destroy the morale of the playing group that the young players are in. Shock horror that the players struggle to develop and improve. If it's one or two players you blame the player. When it's every player in the squad it's the manager.
Mourinho could have shit-talked any player in the squad and he would have been 'right' as they were all struggling. If he'd attacked Lukaku, he'd have been right. Sanchez? Right. Matic? Right. Fred? Right. McTominay? Right. Lingard? Right. Jones? Right. Rojo? Right. Bailly? Right. Lindelof? Right. And so on and so on. It's on the manager to improve things with training, man-management and eventually transfers. Mourinho failed in every aspect.
You say "a lot of things" but his success rate on the things this thread was started in relation to is dubious. So I think I'd rather say he was "right on some things and talked so much to defend his own behind it was perhaps inevitable he would be."
Pogba - he fecking bought him. I think if we are going to credit his opinion on Pogba then it is only balanced to ask why he flushed club funds down the toilet on said player.
Rashford - having a great season, the current manager has extracted performances.
Shaw - See above.
Martial - he was right here.
It's looking like a 25% success rate, which probably tallies with the footballing and transfer decisions he made judging by how much of a mess he left us in.
He was right about a lot of problems, absolutely wildly wrong about his solutions.
He used to be mad about winning, now he'd rather just be seen to be right.
He used to be mad about winning, now he'd rather just be seen to be right.
Most probably Jose boys than ManUtd fans, wouldn't be surprising as most of them joined when that toxic cnut became the manager.
They should have left with him to be honest .
Not necessarily.
See the Ronaldo vs Messi thread, people joined caf to post only in that thread and there are people who still posts even enough one of them is irrelevant.
All you need to know really. He was embarrassing at the end. Funny thing is that i actually like him. Won us a few trophies, so thanks for that.
Anyone who supports him after his heritage rant is not a United fan.
Yeah, same. He’s doing well at Roma, but he was a nightmare here.
He was wrong about Maguire, Lindelof, Bailly, Dalot, Lukaku, Matic, Sanchez aka the juiciest orange, Fred or about Mkhitaryan and a multitude of other things. His success rate is closer. He is closer to 5% success rate than 25.
Looking today(and for the last 6 months) at Rashford and if reports are true ETH had a bust up with Martial for not putting in the necessary effort.
I remember when Mourinho was highlighting the same and most of the Caf(myself included) thought he was crazy and lost the plot. But after all these years, was he wrong though?
His famous "City have herritage rant" was viewed as blasphemous at the time. How many of you would disagree with his words right now?
Now the thing I want to stop at is his foresight into the rise of players power at the expense of professionalism. He clearly saw that the standards at United were slipping and he started ringing the alarm bells. While we might debate if he was right/wrong about Shaw, it's clear as day that he was right about Pogba, Martial and Rashford.
The man clearly knew that unless your name is Ronaldo or Messi, any top player has to have to workrate. So he clearly never rated the above trio for that reason. Most of the fans were on his back because they thought that Pogba, Martial or Rashford are too talented to be let go/ waste on the bench.
Now let's think about something different: what message did the players get when the manager who was trying to maintain the standards got the boot? Imagine if you had a group of slackers in a company that got the boss fired? Do you think they are going to pull their weight when the next boss comes in? Or do you think they are going to do the same thing knowing as to what happened to the last boss?
Now picture this:
What do you think happens to all the new comers in this environement? Are they upheld to hire standars, or pretty quick they learn to read the room and "assimilate" into the environement?
Add to the fact that a good portion of our team was composed of past it players who've already won everything and have nothing prove. They are here to collect a paycheck and move on when the time comes.
To be clear, I'm not advocating that Mourinho should be rehired or that he somehow is an amazing manager. I'm just highlighting that the man had the foresight and he tried to warn us of the disaster that was about to unfold.
I remember when Mourinho was highlighting the same and most of the Caf(myself included) thought he was crazy and lost the plot. But after all these years, was he wrong though?
His famous "City have herritage rant" was viewed as blasphemous at the time. How many of you would disagree with his words right now?
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/jU53sZSs_68
Sadly Caf won't let me embed a youtube short
Sadly Caf won't let me embed a youtube short
Now the thing I want to stop at is his foresight into the rise of players power at the expense of professionalism. He clearly saw that the standards at United were slipping and he started ringing the alarm bells. While we might debate if he was right/wrong about Shaw, it's clear as day that he was right about Pogba, Martial and Rashford.
The man clearly knew that unless your name is Ronaldo or Messi, any top player has to have to workrate. So he clearly never rated the above trio for that reason. Most of the fans were on his back because they thought that Pogba, Martial or Rashford are too talented to be let go/ waste on the bench.
Now let's think about something different: what message did the players get when the manager who was trying to maintain the standards got the boot? Imagine if you had a group of slackers in a company that got the boss fired? Do you think they are going to pull their weight when the next boss comes in? Or do you think they are going to do the same thing knowing as to what happened to the last boss?
Now picture this:
What do you think happens to all the new comers in this environement? Are they upheld to hire standars, or pretty quick they learn to read the room and "assimilate" into the environement?
Add to the fact that a good portion of our team was composed of past it players who've already won everything and have nothing prove. They are here to collect a paycheck and move on when the time comes.
To be clear, I'm not advocating that Mourinho should be rehired or that he somehow is an amazing manager. I'm just highlighting that the man had the foresight and he tried to warn us of the disaster that was about to unfold.
Jose also said the good managers can manage the big name players. Ten Hag certainly can't do that
I never paid attention to what Jose says about general things. For example: he used to make fun of Wenger for participating in the top4 trophy and yet look at Jose now.
As a matter of fact Jose himself hasn't managed any big name players successfully since his Inter days.
Most of our issues with poor mentality and no workrate started under Mourinho. It was the culture that he fostered, deliberately going out of his way to destroy the morale of the dressing room so that he could be proven right that the problems were the players and the board, rather than him. He did it at multiple clubs in the second half of his career. From memory we went from being one of the teams at the top of the distance covered under LVG to rock bottom under Mourinho. Then Ole came in and while he was good for a short-term morale boost he didn't show any sign of being able to develop players. Either in terms of developing their game or in terms of mental strength, confidence and leadership.
We had a group of talented young players that under better management could have been developed into the backbone of our squad. Instead they basically wasted 6 seasons at the most important time in their career under first Mourinho and then Ole, and now they are in or past their prime and it's pretty much too late. At this point we basically have to rip up most of the squad and rebuild, as much for the mentality as for the skills on the pitch.
That's not to excuse the players entirely of course, but this constant coming back to 'Mourinho was right' really does grind my gears. He was the single biggest cause of the problems that he complained about.
Wow, you like your conspiracy stuff.
José was wrong, and the club was right to sack him and never to even consider bringing him back.
What conspiracy?
Every man and his dog knows that when things don't go well Mourinho throws his players under the bus to try to avoid blame himself. When it happens once, you think fair enough. Twice and it's becoming a trend but maybe he was right and just got unlucky with two poor dressing rooms. Three, four plus times? It's the manager.
The poor workrate? Obviously started under Mourinho.
I'm not a fan of Jose but I find that it's no coincidence that the same players that let Jose down are still here stinking up the place. Some United fans still defend Martial ignoring the fact that he's failed under every single manager as has Rashford.
Because Mourinho is well known for making lazy teams...
Well known for not giving his players reason to work hard...
Not at all the choice of the players...
Not at all a problem that's been going on for many years...
Of course he was right. The baying mob at the Caf much preferred to take the easy route and torch the manager than actually inspect the players themselves.
It’s a good job only one of those players you’ve mentioned gets a regular game now then isn’t it. Should be fine soon.
In the second half of his career Mourinho has basically just had his teams sit back defensively and rely on individual brilliance to score. No real attacking play, no real pressing, just sit back and try to be solid. It seemed to be his response to Pep's Barcelona and the teams who attempted to copy it. It somewhat worked at Real because of just who those individual attackers were, but even then both the fans and the players were vocally unhappy about it.
There are some players who are naturally lazy, and there are some who are naturally workhorses. However the majority of players out there can go either way to some extent, and it depends on what the manager wants, the training and playing system, and also the confidence level of the player (which is largely a reaction to the confidence of the dressing room). The fact that our own workrate fell off a damn cliff under Mourinho, and the same happened at Chelsea and Spurs, tells me that it's on the manager. Either he's deliberately doing it or something he's doing is causing the issue.
I think a lot of people forget that Rashford was quite a hard worker when he first broke into the team. That declined under Mourinho, and then declined even further under Ole until we see the Rashford we now have. Would that decline have happened with better management and a better dressing room mentality around him, or at least the extent of that decline? It's something we'll never know as by this stage it's ingrained into him.
8 out of the 11 players starting yesterday have been at the club for five years or more and have never been league champions, or really even contenders. 5 of them played for Jose. The other 3 were signings from Ole’s first season.
I mean we really shouldn’t be shocked, right? Some terrible additions have been added to these players but there is a survivor culture. There’s no two ways about it. As I said in other thread it’s pretty ironic that two of the better long term survivors that we did get rid of in the summer -Fred and DDG- were probably the best ones.
I mean we really shouldn’t be shocked, right? Some terrible additions have been added to these players but there is a survivor culture. There’s no two ways about it. As I said in other thread it’s pretty ironic that two of the better long term survivors that we did get rid of in the summer -Fred and DDG- were probably the best ones.
I don't agree with the idea that Mourinho has magical power to make Rashford lazy and no manager can ever change that.
Not all players were lazy under Mourinho at United, not even close, some were.
This is nonsense to pin on Mourinho. Rashford was 21 when Mourinho left. Even if you suppose it is true, how can it be remotely excusable that the player isn’t at fault for not being a hard worker in the next 5 years once the manager is gone? He’s not exactly in the twilight of his career with legs that are going.
this thinking is precisely what got him the sack - the lack of accountability on the players themselves - and it’s unbelievably still happening 5 years later ?!
Other than Herrera, Young, Lingard and I guess Fellaini, I'm struggling to remember anyone that was even average in terms of overall work-rate. Maybe a couple of central defenders, but they are generally the ones with the least amount of work to do.
Just like not every player is lazy now. But the team as a whole, like at all his clubs recently, quite noticeably dropped off and became one of the worst in the league for distance covered. Indeed both ourselves and Spurs had at least one period where we were literally bottom of the PL table for it, and were near the bottom for the rest of his time. I don't think Chelsea were quite that bad (well, they probably were in his last season when he got sacked) but they were still down there.
The thing about mourinho for me was that when he came, i wondered how long it would be before he got himself sacked. He wasn't wrong about some of the stuff he said, but feck me, he was a miserable twat. His negativity and general demeanor was awful. I think he was way past his peak when we got him. Bitch mourinho is what we ended up with.
I'm not saying it was Mourinho by himself. He started it and I do believe was the single biggest reason, but the situation was still recoverable when he left. Unfortunately we then followed that up with three years of Ole, and that almost six years between them was a blow that is extremely difficult to recover from. Pretty much half of a players career at the top level, players that were teen or early 20's before them were now mid-to-late 20's with barely any development being done.
Do the advanced stats prove Rashford is lazy?
His career after United is evident of his own extreme decline.
So he can be right about the problems and also be a problem himself.
So he can be right about the problems and also be a problem himself.
I laughed when he have sayed that second place with UTD is his biggest achievement. Now I am believer.
He was on decline, but he was still smart football man, you don't go stupid overnight.
He was on decline, but he was still smart football man, you don't go stupid overnight.
Jose didn't say Rashford, Pogba and Martial were lazy afaik. He complained and fans assumed he meant certain players. We can't say he was right when he wasn't clear which players he was talking about.
His heritage rant was and is BS.
The fans didn’t believe that Pogba, Martial and Rashford were too talented. The ones who disliked Jose just believed he was part of the problem as was proven when he did the same thing at Spurs to the same result.
And he wasn't trying to "maintain standards", he was trying to turn other people into scapegoats. You mention that some of our players are past it and in it for a cheque, doesn't that also apply to Jose?
Tl;dr: The current team isn't good. That doesn't mean that Jose wasnt part of the problem and deserved to be sacked, that he was able to fix anything or that his specific complaints were even right.