They're not mutually exclusive. The players aren't good enough to win titles and the manager isn't good enough to win titles. You can say we need to wait until he's given that opportunity, while others say they've seen enough. There's room for disagreement there. I'm just saying that the notion that it's knee jerk isn't right. These views were there months ago.
"So many managers have been sacked"...
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Bayern cannot be used as a fecking example! They have much much better players than United and they are established in a much less competitive league!
I agree though that United have to have a more ruthless mentality, but that goes with Woodward making those decisions on players and how the club is run regardless of who is manager. He's been in charge for 8 years and we've seen this cycle before. How is this still all on the manager?
They stop sacking when they arrive at top quality managers. Turn back the clock at the predecessor then count back for a decade.
Manager like SAF, even Wenger was rare species in this era. SAF didn't take it for granted like Wenger and always tried to win
Have Poch on a retainer for when the next wheel comes off. The recruitment under Ole has been massively exaggerated and is nothing so fantastic that makes it worthy of continuity. Outside of Bruno the best parts of the team are still inherited
But we're never winning the league with or without a Sancho, etc...you sack him now is ass backwards. It sets back the team again and we do this start and stop dance again. feck off with the manager and gain context from the past year. Today was bad but way over the top in terms of reactions.
Since 2013
Real - 4 CL, 2 Leagues, 1 Spanish cup etc.
Barca- 1 CL, 5 LEAGUES, 3 SPANISH Cups
Bayern- 2 CL, 7 Leagues, 4 German Pokal
Chelsea- 0 CL, 2 Leagues, 2 Europa Cups, 1 FA Cup, 1 League Cup.
Standards. Of course I still don't consider Chelsea to be an elite club.
Because the worst parts of the team and wages cannot be moved on effectively nor efficiently enough and that's the shit planning and job of Woodward.
Identify and recruit and develop real talent based on how your club wants to play and perform and win shit....it doesn't matter who the manager is. build quality that can sustain managers.
Some of which were given new contracts under the current regime. Regarding the 2nd paragraph we can still build quality under the next manager. None of this is specific to keeping Ole around
Leicester also sacked a league winning manager, the one they would probably put up a statue for in the future, the following season. fecking Leicester!
It’s not all on the manager, but the owners aren’t going to go, we can’t offload half the team so the only logical solution is to sack the underperforming manager, give the new one clear set of objectives to achieve, rinse and repeat until we find a good one. Worked well enough for Liverpool, or Chelsea for that matter, they didn’t stick with their Dalglish, Brentan, Scolari, AVB.
Misread that stat somewhere then, my bad, maybe the season prior not sure. The league finish is what I focus on at this time during this rebuild though.
I fully expect Liverpool to want to sack Klopp after this evenings similar result to a worse team than Spurs though.
Not doing Ole any favours comparing him to multiple time league winning manager. That's a manager who has the credit to call a thrashing an anomalyMisread that stat somewhere then, my bad, maybe the season prior not sure. The league finish is what I focus on at this time during this rebuild though.
I fully expect Liverpool to want to sack Klopp after this evenings similar result to a worse team than Spurs though.
Ole was on thin ice before last Christmas yet he's still here fecking things up. Bruno saved his bacon.
The entire club and fans don't hold the manager accountable enough.
We beat every team at least once in 2017/18, maybe that's what you ran into somewhere.Misread that stat somewhere then, my bad, maybe the season prior not sure. The league finish is what I focus on at this time during this rebuild though.
I fully expect Liverpool to want to sack Klopp after this evenings similar result to a worse team than Spurs though.
If we played well the first games this loss would have been a one off game but we deserved to lose all three PL games so far. Ole has been blind-sided by the board and the players know it. Ole isn't the same manager that finished last season, he looks like he's given up already and I don't blame him.
Knowing Woodward he probably promised him an adult Disneyland but has given him no indication that the board believes in the project, not in terms of transfers anyway.
I'm old enough to have seen Ole play for us and as a player I will always hold him in high regard but as a manager I see him as ok, no more or less. I don't think he has the capacity to operate with a lower budget and still get results in the PL. The fans backing Ole try to make it out like our squad is absolute shit and that what he did last season was a miracle, while his critics the opposite. I sit somewhere in the middle, Ole did what I would expect from a manager with his experience and with the squad given (Finishing with 66 points, 1.7 points/game). Personally I don't believe Ole can or will do anything of remark here and even less so when he's not backed properly.
I’ve added the trophy counts (leagues, cups, CL, EL) to the OP.
It's about having the right manager at the right time, with Real Madrid Mourinho was a great appointment as he set the club on the right track and build the basis of everything that Ancelotti and Zidane achieved after him. The only appointment i was very conflicted at the time was Benitez, nobody liked him in the team and he never clicked with the fans so th club did the right thing sacking him.
When Zidane resigned it seemed like a smart decision by him as the team had already peaked and he thought he couldn't get more out of the team while also having some differences with the board and tragically for Lopetegui everything went bad for him (and Spain sadly) even before he could start the job, so he also had to go after the poor results. The other options our club wanted before contracting Lopetegui were Pochettino and Nagelsmann as they're modern managers with the right philosophy and approach for Real Madrid so I'm sure the team will go again for them if we were on the look for a manager any time soon and they would be very well received by the fans.
With United I don't think there's any point in keeping him as he's a poor manager and he's not building anything in particular; he can't implement modern tactics or develop a cohesive style. The next manager that comes is going to have to start from zero so having someone like Ole is just wasting time. Out Mourinho, LVG, Moyes and Ole I think LVG and Mourinho are the ones who had more of an idea as they're clearly superior managers over the likes of Moyes and Ole. So yeah, sacking Solskjær it was something inevitable the moment he took charge but it really isn't his fault as initially he was just caretaker manager.
When Zidane resigned it seemed like a smart decision by him as the team had already peaked and he thought he couldn't get more out of the team while also having some differences with the board and tragically for Lopetegui everything went bad for him (and Spain sadly) even before he could start the job, so he also had to go after the poor results. The other options our club wanted before contracting Lopetegui were Pochettino and Nagelsmann as they're modern managers with the right philosophy and approach for Real Madrid so I'm sure the team will go again for them if we were on the look for a manager any time soon and they would be very well received by the fans.
With United I don't think there's any point in keeping him as he's a poor manager and he's not building anything in particular; he can't implement modern tactics or develop a cohesive style. The next manager that comes is going to have to start from zero so having someone like Ole is just wasting time. Out Mourinho, LVG, Moyes and Ole I think LVG and Mourinho are the ones who had more of an idea as they're clearly superior managers over the likes of Moyes and Ole. So yeah, sacking Solskjær it was something inevitable the moment he took charge but it really isn't his fault as initially he was just caretaker manager.
The big problem with Ole are the basic principles that inform his tactics, what are they? Is he an offensive manager, a defensive one, a possession based or a high energy quick quick goal type of manager? Is he tailoring his style to his players, is he bringing in players that suit his or has he been reduced to bringing in whoever Woodward manages to bring in.
First we say we play from the back but we don't have a single defender that is comfortable doing this under pressure.
We want to play a high line but we spunk £80m on the slowest defender around? We demand that our fullbacks push up but we keep Shaw and go on to sign AWB.
Then there is the midfield Ole got his job by playing Pogba as the furthest forward midfielder but starts last season playing him deep and even pursued a number ten. What was the plan for Pogba then? Shoehorn him into a role that we know he is incapable of and unwilling to play?
The recruitment decisions are at odds with the stated tactical vision. Suppose we are a counter attacking team then why push up the field, why play with a defensively inept midfielder as part of the two?
First we say we play from the back but we don't have a single defender that is comfortable doing this under pressure.
We want to play a high line but we spunk £80m on the slowest defender around? We demand that our fullbacks push up but we keep Shaw and go on to sign AWB.
Then there is the midfield Ole got his job by playing Pogba as the furthest forward midfielder but starts last season playing him deep and even pursued a number ten. What was the plan for Pogba then? Shoehorn him into a role that we know he is incapable of and unwilling to play?
The recruitment decisions are at odds with the stated tactical vision. Suppose we are a counter attacking team then why push up the field, why play with a defensively inept midfielder as part of the two?
[shrugs] folks asked, so I added it.
I know and it made it glaring how overrated manager loyalty is although it was said tongue in cheek. We basically look down on clubs that are doing world's better than us
Seems like 5 managers in 7 years is the magic number. We were so close as well.
Ahh, yeah, I know what you mean. Keep a manager around just to do it makes no sense. I wouldn’t say go full Watford, but there’s something to be said for the model that the other large (and more successful) clubs have adopted.
It's not the United way. Top reds will disagree - unless Ole stays for another 20 years we can't really tell if he isn't another Fergie.
Why cant they just hire great managers?
Not everyone can run the club all by himself with club growing in size. Even the top head coach in the business said from time to time, they couldn't keep track of everything at club but focusing on their coaching.
You're up to keep training your potential manager.
Does it matter how many manager United sack? The board don't learn from past mistakes.
So many wrong managers were appointed. That's the problem. Not the sackings (which all came too late).
I am also a fan of the coach-DOF model.
I'd rather hire the right coach like Liverpool and City have done, than have to rely on sheer luck sifting through dozens of bad coaches because of the small possibility that one may be the right one.
I think the OP is saying the clubs above have the fortitude to fire managers instantly instead of hanging on, but that in itself is no guarantee of success. (Looks over at Milan)
Yes.
And he says it more succinct than me @ti vu
Not disagree.
Head coach is just part of the system at the club at this size. Structure need to be built to help. Timing to get a good coach in is very important too. You can have the best set up, but let chance passing by then you end up with bad coach wasting the effort.
For example: Chelsea has been very successful, with the set up behind the head coach. If they have better luck with their timing to get a better coach, not having to go through the shuffling, they would have been dominant, not just mere successful.
We're building from roof, but doesn't necessarily we just stop and don't do it when there is good coach abailable. I don't trust the power that be at this club can, beside some sheer luck.
Not have paid 80million for him maybe, Liverpool got Van Dijk for the same price
He fecking gave up because he doesn't get a Jadon Sancho?? And he's supposed to be our legend??
Does he look motivated to you? Like he's enjoying his dream job? Something isn't quite right.
Well feck me, if he don't like then quit by all means.
You don't feel motivated enough managing the team you love, getting paid as one of the best paid in the world, gets to spend 200M even if you don't have the CV to back it up, given time and patience to perform. This is ole gunnar solksjaer we're talking about, not Pep Guardiola.
There are a lot of "leagues" missing in the OP under the United column.
Don't disagree but my point is if you believe Ole has the capacity to operate with a lesser budget and still get results then you believe in his capacity as a manager, if you don't then any manager will do as long as enough money is thrown at it.
This whole discussion has become about being backed or not. Yes Woody and the Glazers have decided not to spend this window it seems, yes they are cnuts that are slowly destroying the club. But if you don't believe Ole can bring results without 100's of millions invested, you don't believe in his ability as a manager do you?
What's worse is that he doesn't seem to believe.
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Whos available that would improve the team and get them into shape?
He already spent 240M, close to 300 with Telles // whoever we brought in last minute.
At what point would enough be enough?
DOes he needs 1bn before we can expect results? We're being outplayed outsmarted by Birghton Hove, Crystal Palace, and Hotspur
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