"So many managers have been sacked"...

[edcunited1878]

Some of which were given new contracts under the current regime. Regarding the 2nd paragraph we can still build quality under the next manager. None of this is specific to keeping Ole around

Again, Ole is the "current" regime but if they actually had a functioning football transaction team like so many other clubs, then they would have never resigned Jones on those terms or any terms.

United can build a team under any manager, just like any other club. But you're starting and stopping with coaches, managers, playing philosophies. It's all too closely linked with a manager at United.

Again, what I'm trying to say is that Ole getting all the blame is bullshit, especially now after 3 underwhelming PL matches that was preceded by a pre-season that everybody knew was going to be poor with respect to preparation and the right combination of mental/physical rest, and then restarting training and getting proper match fitness. And that's during stupid international matches. In addition to Pogba getting Covid.

Ole has already shown he can improve the squad and the players. People bitch about how they don't see attacking patterns or understanding what is trying to be achieved....yet it is clear as day that United progressed under him in terms of player development, team morale, and team mentality. It's not as if he just rolled the ball out and told them to play however they want but still get the results.

And the points total doesn't matter for United or Ole. It's the final league position. That was his first full season for United and his/their baseline to work off of. RB Leipzig finished with the same amount of points and same table position the year before Nagelsmann, but nobody says anything about that because it's a double standard. His team in his first year scored more goals and conceded more goals. And his team was better than the previous season...but equal points.

 

[edcunited1878]

Leicester also sacked a league winning manager, the one they would probably put up a statue for in the future, the following season. fecking Leicester!

It’s not all on the manager, but the owners aren’t going to go, we can’t offload half the team so the only logical solution is to sack the underperforming manager, give the new one clear set of objectives to achieve, rinse and repeat until we find a good one. Worked well enough for Liverpool, or Chelsea for that matter, they didn’t stick with their Dalglish, Brentan, Scolari, AVB.

Leicester also knew that Ranieri completely overachieved in a very historically down year for the major clubs that year. And that's the way it was. Then they lost key players such as Kante and Mahrez. And while they got a good manager, they got in better reinforcements/players just like they did for Ranieri and Rodgers. Ricardo Periera, developed Chilwell, Maguire was good for them, then his replacement Soyanchu was good, Tielimans, Ndidi, Barnes, found an effective Perez, etc. Those are all good signings and use of good resources that don't have anything to do with their manager. And that's what is missing from United, it's that abundantely clear.

I don't have an issue with Ole leaving, that's inevitable. But it shouldn't be now, it shouldn't be this season. United finished 3rd. United would have finished at least 3rd if they got proper players and continued to build and bring in quality, first team players. The quality players for the now is far from finished and is independent of the manager. However Ole has shown already he can build the team and build the right mentality needed. If the players some how quit on him in the last 2 or 3 months, that would be shocking. But what is shocking is the lack of help they have received from Woodward. It has a trickle down effect and guess what, this is could be the 2nd time it's happened in the past 3 years where we see a club begin to show signs of significant improving in the table and with players, but then not everybody is pulling their own weight and not pulling in the same direction...in addition to a bad pre-season that was out of their control and had them starting from behind many teams.

 

[Barry Red]

All three of those managers that chose to live in the north turned us down. Why is that?

Guardiola went to city for an obvious and unique reason. We couldn't get him to come here because we couldn't offer that, nor could anyone else beside PSG. He would've went to london if not for the fact that city had ridiculous resources which allowed them to build his own team, alongside Txiki.

Klopp went to Liverpool because they were in unique circumstances. A sleeping giant that has been asleep so long, that were able to give him full control. He knew himself he needed those conditions to thrive. When he moves on, they won't get a manager from the cream of the crop, despite Liverpool being in the top bracket of clubs now. That's the way it has always been. Only city have bucked the trend and we can't just pretend we don't know why.

We know from their histories that those unique pulling factors outweighed the obvious downsides of coming up north. It isn't a secret that the European elite don't want to live in northern England. It doesn't remove all chances but you need a special set of circumstances to outweigh it.

And that a lot

All three of those managers that chose to live in the north turned us down. Why is that?

Guardiola went to city for an obvious and unique reason. We couldn't get him to come here because we couldn't offer that, nor could anyone else beside PSG. He would've went to london if not for the fact that city had ridiculous resources which allowed them to build his own team, alongside Txiki.

Klopp went to Liverpool because they were in unique circumstances. A sleeping giant that has been asleep so long, that were able to give him full control. He knew himself he needed those conditions to thrive. When he moves on, they won't get a manager from the cream of the crop, despite Liverpool being in the top bracket of clubs now. That's the way it has always been. Only city have bucked the trend and we can't just pretend we don't know why.

We know from their histories that those unique pulling factors outweighed the obvious downsides of coming up north. It isn't a secret that the European elite don't want to live in northern England. It doesn't remove all chances but you need a special set of circumstances to outweigh it.

And there are a lot of players (and their wives) that haven't fancied living in the north of England.

 

[Madridista2000]

Real Madrid would have sacked at least 10 managers and even the President would have been sacked if the team went through a drought like the one United is going through.

 

[Ventura]

Real Madrid would have sacked at least 10 managers and even the President would have been sacked if the team went through a drought like the one United is going through.

And that would have solved the problem?

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

Leicester also knew that Ranieri completely overachieved in a very historically down year for the major clubs that year. And that's the way it was. Then they lost key players such as Kante and Mahrez. And while they got a good manager, they got in better reinforcements/players just like they did for Ranieri and Rodgers. Ricardo Periera, developed Chilwell, Maguire was good for them, then his replacement Soyanchu was good, Tielimans, Ndidi, Barnes, found an effective Perez, etc. Those are all good signings and use of good resources that don't have anything to do with their manager. And that's what is missing from United, it's that abundantely clear.

I don't have an issue with Ole leaving, that's inevitable. But it shouldn't be now, it shouldn't be this season. United finished 3rd. United would have finished at least 3rd if they got proper players and continued to build and bring in quality, first team players. The quality players for the now is far from finished and is independent of the manager. However Ole has shown already he can build the team and build the right mentality needed. If the players some how quit on him in the last 2 or 3 months, that would be shocking. But what is shocking is the lack of help they have received from Woodward. It has a trickle down effect and guess what, this is could be the 2nd time it's happened in the past 3 years where we see a club begin to show signs of significant improving in the table and with players, but then not everybody is pulling their own weight and not pulling in the same direction...in addition to a bad pre-season that was out of their control and had them starting from behind many teams.

Leicester copped a lot of shit from all sides for that decision, but they knew they had to act for the good of the club because the manager, despite the past accolades, couldn’t get out of the rut. Their results picked up immediately without the reinforcements you mentioned, which came later, that’s not valid as an argument for OGS.

You are banging on and on about mentality and building the team, the mentality that saw us collapsing in the last months of 18/19? The mentality that saw us lost three cup semi final in the same season? The mentality that saw us unable to defeat a relegation side at home to ensure CL qualification? The team building that spunk 160m on 3 players who are now either out of the team or among the worst performers? The team building that saw us unable to score from open play for 8 games in the tail end of last season? The team building that lead to us conceding 11 goals in the opening 3 league games and had the heaviest home defeat in eons?

Sometimes you just have to know when to call it quits. He has been given a fair chance, but he’s not good enough, so he has to go. Sound out a manager who is proven to be able to develop a coherent, attacking style like Nagelsmann, Pochettino, give them a budget and clear set of objectives to operate in. Jurgen Klopp signed one player after a close run league defeat to turn his team into runaway league champions, our manager shouldn’t need 5 new signings just to be able to maintain 3rd place. It’s about time we demand some real standards from the one in charge of the first team.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

And that would have solved the problem?

It tends to yes.

Top clubs sacking managers till one works has proven rather successful.

 

[Greck]

And that would have solved the problem?

They just won 3 straight CLs as a sacking club. Wrong sacking club to patronise

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

They just won 3 straight CLs as a sacking club. Wrong sacking club to patronise

Even better, they sacked managers left and right when they were still winning leagues but unable to progress in the CL in the naughties. United fans would have a collective seizure in the same scenario.

Somehow there’s this notion among the fan base that unless you can accept the club being mired in mediocrity, you are a glory hunter, never mind the fact that with the resources at our disposal it should never be the case. Difference in capability calls for difference in standards, had we started baying for blood in December 2013 then we might not be in the shit we are in now.

 

[edcunited1878]

Leicester copped a lot of shit from all sides for that decision, but they knew they had to act for the good of the club because the manager, despite the past accolades, couldn’t get out of the rut. Their results picked up immediately without the reinforcements you mentioned, which came later, that’s not valid as an argument for OGS.

You are banging on and on about mentality and building the team, the mentality that saw us collapsing in the last months of 18/19? The mentality that saw us lost three cup semi final in the same season? The mentality that saw us unable to defeat a relegation side at home to ensure CL qualification? The team building that spunk 160m on 3 players who are now either out of the team or among the worst performers? The team building that saw us unable to score from open play for 8 games in the tail end of last season? The team building that lead to us conceding 11 goals in the opening 3 league games and had the heaviest home defeat in eons?

Sometimes you just have to know when to call it quits. He has been given a fair chance, but he’s not good enough, so he has to go. Sound out a manager who is proven to be able to develop a coherent, attacking style like Nagelsmann, Pochettino, give them a budget and clear set of objectives to operate in. Jurgen Klopp signed one player after a close run league defeat to turn his team into runaway league champions, our manager shouldn’t need 5 new signings just to be able to maintain 3rd place. It’s about time we demand some real standards from the one in charge of the first team.

So you're ready to call it quits after 3 PL matches after that pre-season time? There is impatience and there is irrationality. I fear this is both from you and others.

The squad the last months of 18/19 were a wreck physically and once injuries happened, I think it was Pogba or whoever else, the team didn't have a chance to rebound as the gap was far too big to overcome. You don't lose CL qualification from one match at the end of the year, that happens throughout the year when you're just not good enough throughout the year and when teams are fighting relegation, they are fighting for their lives and those shock decisions or matches do go against you, it happens.

The team building that saw United score goals...all goals count the same, it doesn't matter. It's not like United were looking for a draw each match and were bailed out by a dodgy pen decision and you still have to make your pens to get three points. An OG, a pen, a goal from open play, who gives two shits. A goal is a goal. And again, this PL season in the opening 3 matches have been really harsh against United but it's very much early doors and the team will improve. Palace match was underwhelming but also very odd from the penalty against Lindelof and the retake of the penalty (nobody mentioned that Lloris was clearly off his line, both feet, when Bruno scored yesterday even if it went it). Yesterday was a very bad and humbling day, but it wasn't against some shit team when United went down to 10 men. It was a freak result and performance once going down to 10 men in addition to the shitshow that was the defensive players.

How can you say Ole has been given a fair chance...to do what exactly, win the league? This year is his defining year to see if he can sustain and improve on last year, especially the output of his front three players and get the best out of Pogba and Bruno for a full season. But it's been extremely slow to get off from the deck because of the pre-season prep they had, which is not to blame anyone, it's just going to take a little bit more time to get to optimal speed. And that was before any real reinforcements to the first XI, which didn't come in the transfer window.

Sorry, but you're irrational in saying Ole has had enough time. He deserves this year and unless the team just collapses around New Year, then he won't be leaving.

You're saying that Ole wasn't given a budget? What are his objectives for this year...you think he can achieve them in 3 PL matches? You don't think that this team and all teams will have adversity to overcome and factors that you have to deal with? Klopp is a great manager, better than Ole...that's never the question. But everybody knew that Liverpool needed a clear upgrade on a GK and then the rest of their team would carry on or improve and it's not just down to the manager but the actual progression of the player's talent and ability. Nagelsmann is a bright young manager, but he needs time too just like he's doing it at Leipzig for his second full season. Poch is a bit of an enigma, but he's a good manager. A manager who had a very good Spurs team with class attacking talent not in United stables, yet Poch's PL points total decreased year after year from their 2nd place finish or from their highest points total/league position. And he had beef with Levy for a couple years before he was sacked and his squad, who made a tremendous and overachieving CL run...which does happen, were CL place challengers in the league, similar to Ole.

The manager doesn't need 5 new signings to maintain 3rd place you're right....but the manager also needs more than 3 PL games all things considered. But you also need more than ZERO first team players in a transfer window when the team you finished ahead on on GD signed half a new first team players (GK, CB, 3 attacking players, and a LB). But again, that's on going planning for the entire club and the vision which is more on Woodward than Ole.

If you're sacking Ole now, then why not sack him during the 4 weeks from end to start of new season? He deserves this season and then he becomes a lame duck manager going into his last contracted season (21/22 season).

Regardless of manager, United need a RF to rotate with Greenwood and provide depth. United will need a new CF or at least a capable back to Martial after Cavani signs then leaves and then a legit LF to challenge or takeover for Rashford. Then there's central midfield and the constant question of what happens to Pogba...then how not only do you replace him or account for him, but then what to do with Matic's replacement...is it in house in McTominay or Garner (I don't believe so), or is it Fred? Then you need to sign their squad depth/backup.

Then comes the defensive line. Shaw and Telles are the LBs for now and future it seems. Maguire, Lindelof, Bailly all have their faults and only way to improve is to sign someone or sign somebody...but even then they will need time to adjust and adapt and settle within the team and their partner. And then RB....AWB and Williams.

So managers come and go more frequently than players....the player recruitment and squad development and selling of deadwood to supplement and aid in the first team is more dependent on the footballing structure than the manager. This squad was good enough to come 3rd last year. And all things being equal, still have a shot at being 3rd or 4th. But having CL football this year, having a shortened pre-season if you can call it that, seeing your immediate rivals in Chelsea and Spurs strengthen, and then other teams having a full pre-season and getting players in earlier than you.....it's not all down to the manager. Time will be needed for everybody and sacking Ole now after 1.5 seasons is insane. Oh, and you'll have to buy Ole out too....and maybe that money could have gone to the transfer of a player, incremental to a new manager's salary that would probably be higher than Ole's if they have a better track record/more successful than Ole?

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

So you're ready to call it quits after 3 PL matches after that pre-season time? There is impatience and there is irrationality. I fear this is both from you and others.

I voted sack after the West Ham draw at home last season and haven’t changed my mind. You can stop it with the 3 matches shite, it’s getting tedious. Others who want him out made their minds up far earlier than that.

You don’t wait until the house is burnt to the ground to salvage it. He has been in charge for 20 months, not 3 matches and in that time frame it’s been one step forward two steps back. We have seen no discernible improvement in our play style nor results. The idea that firing him now will cost us more in pay off is farcical when if we continue in the same track, we will be out of CL contention by December and missing out this year will be a deathblow for the club’s finances with the pandemic going on.

 

[edcunited1878]

Even better, they sacked managers left and right when they were still winning leagues but unable to progress in the CL in the naughties. United fans would have a collective seizure in the same scenario.

Somehow there’s this notion among the fan base that unless you can accept the club being mired in mediocrity, you are a glory hunter, never mind the fact that with the resources at our disposal it should never be the case. Difference in capability calls for difference in standards, had we started baying for blood in December 2013 then we might not be in the shit we are in now.

They sacked managers because they knew they had quality proven talent that was underperforming when they performed well before. United don't have that luxury with their players...they haven't been afforded that time or making potential talent into consistent quality.

Martial, Rashford, and Greenwood...their first year playing in their settled roles. Martial and Rashford sustained lengthy injuries too last year. All this to say is that they have to be able to show that they can replicate, but also improve on what they did last year and be consistent. That comes with time and development, but more so time and playing.

The central midfield just had Bruno for 6 months. He has to improve, be more consistent, but still show that quality week in and week out. Still has to prove himself long term in the PL. Fred is a known player now. McTominay still needs to improve leaps and bounds. Matic is what he is, but definitely past his prime. DVB is new so the jury is still out but he's a good player looking to improve as he's still young. Pogba is Pogba...inconsistent but world class sometimes, average and poor the others. And he contracted Covid.

2 of the 4 back four starters just completed their first year at United and that's a huge step up your first year and then your future years because there's greater expectation and pressure on you. Especially in the CL. But they all have their flaws to begin with.

So yeah, you can afford to sack every manager you want when your team is CL winning caliber because that quality doesn't leave overnight. And the board knows they can rectify the situation by bringing in another manager or managers who they think they can do the job from a position of strength/power. United don't have those luxuries because it's run by Woodward and a board who do not have the requisite footballing experience nor true identity of United's football 'heritage'.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

They sacked managers because they knew they had quality proven talent that was underperforming when they performed well before. United don't have that luxury with their players...they haven't been afforded that time or making potential talent into consistent quality.

Martial, Rashford, and Greenwood...their first year playing in their settled roles. Martial and Rashford sustained lengthy injuries too last year. All this to say is that they have to be able to show that they can replicate, but also improve on what they did last year and be consistent. That comes with time and development, but more so time and playing.

The central midfield just had Bruno for 6 months. He has to improve, be more consistent, but still show that quality week in and week out. Still has to prove himself long term in the PL. Fred is a known player now. McTominay still needs to improve leaps and bounds. Matic is what he is, but definitely past his prime. DVB is new so the jury is still out but he's a good player looking to improve as he's still young. Pogba is Pogba...inconsistent but world class sometimes, average and poor the others. And he contracted Covid.

2 of the 4 back four starters just completed their first year at United and that's a huge step up your first year and then your future years because there's greater expectation and pressure on you. Especially in the CL. But they all have their flaws to begin with.

So yeah, you can afford to sack every manager you want when your team is CL winning caliber because that quality doesn't leave overnight. And the board knows they can rectify the situation by bringing in another manager or managers who they think they can do the job from a position of strength/power. United don't have those luxuries because it's run by Woodward and a board who do not have the requisite footballing experience nor true identity of United's football 'heritage'.

Real Madrid of the mid 2000s had stellar names like van de vaart, huntelaar, Lassana Diaarra, Gago, Emerson playing for them, hardly a team chocked full of world beaters. Your notion that you are only allowed to sack managers when the team is superb just doesn’t hold water. The manager is a huge component of how to shape and make the team perform. No one would have envisioned Jordan Henderson, James Milner and Adam Llana being league and CL champion before Klopp got his hands on them.

 

[edcunited1878]

I voted sack after the West Ham draw at home last season and haven’t changed my mind. You can stop it with the 3 matches shite, it’s getting tedious. Others who want him out made their minds up far earlier than that.

You don’t wait until the house is burnt to the ground to salvage it. He has been in charge for 20 months, not 3 matches and in that time frame it’s been one step forward two steps back. We have seen no discernible improvement in our play style nor results. The idea that firing him now will cost us more in pay off is farcical when if we continue in the same track, we will be out of CL contention by December and missing out this year will be a deathblow for the club’s finances with the pandemic going on.

The West Ham draw at home post-lockdown? Are you serious? Yeah, let's sack the manager during that time knowing CL qualification is still well in reach. That's very smart. How did that shit work for Watford?

The idea that firing him now is poor planning by the board and shows (continues to show) the incompetence and indecisiveness and conflicts within the board, headed by Woodward.

But again, my issue isn't with sacking managers. It's the fact that there are many factors out of Ole's control that he's being blamed and the simplistic idea that hiring another manager is going to automatically rectify the situation. And it's not even about the rest of this season. It's about the inability to build off seasons consecutively, regardless of manager. Build the team and fill in those gaps of quality. That is the true one step forward and two steps back dance you're talking about. It goes above and beyond the manager's position.

 

[Acheron]

They sacked managers because they knew they had quality proven talent that was underperforming when they performed well before. United don't have that luxury with their players...they haven't been afforded that time or making potential talent into consistent quality.

Real Madrid is a better run club with better structure, yes. Even so that has nothing to do with sacking an underperforming manager like Ole and Real Madrid would have sacked him on the basis of having bad results and being a poor and limited coach, the players being good enough or not would be a different issue.

 

[edcunited1878]

Real Madrid of the mid 2000s had stellar names like van de vaart, huntelaar, Lassana Diaarra, Gago, Emerson playing for them, hardly a team chocked full of world beaters. Your notion that you are only allowed to sack managers when the team is superb just doesn’t hold water. The manager is a huge component of how to shape and make the team perform. No one would have envisioned Jordan Henderson, James Milner and Adam Llana being league and CL champion before Klopp got his hands on them.

You don't need world beaters, you need good consistent players within a squad. United don't have those players and haven't had those players assembled in a squad for a while now.

The team doesn't have to be "superb", but it does have to have the requisite talent to challenge for a title or continue striving to that path with some consistency of good players and a good manager. The current United squad is a good team at it's optimal, but through 3 games, they aren't optimal and it's not just down to the manager.

The manager is a huge component yes, but around Jordan and Milner (Lallana is crap and didn't do anything for Liverpool in the grand scheme of things)...came Robertson who was good at Hull and found his tune, signed VVD, signed Allison, the club developed TAA, signed Fabinho, signed Wiljaldum, signed Keita (even if he's been poor), and identified and Mane and Salah who were ascending into very good players for a couple of season before they went to Liverpool. Firmino too.

Then came Klopp and within 3 years they were very good and then they all kept improving going into the future years. But Klopp was and is a very good manager. Ole doesn't compare, that's obviously clear.

So two things....what manager has the pedigree of Klopp and will that manager want to come to United knowing what they know and seeing what they see in terms of how transfers and player recruitment and selling off players is handled?

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

The West Ham draw at home post-lockdown? Are you serious? Yeah, let's sack the manager during that time knowing CL qualification is still well in reach. That's very smart. How did that shit work for Watford?

The idea that firing him now is poor planning by the board and shows (continues to show) the incompetence and indecisiveness and conflicts within the board, headed by Woodward.

But again, my issue isn't with sacking managers. It's the fact that there are many factors out of Ole's control that he's being blamed and the simplistic idea that hiring another manager is going to automatically rectify the situation. And it's not even about the rest of this season. It's about the inability to build off seasons consecutively, regardless of manager. Build the team and fill in those gaps of quality. That is the true one step forward and two steps back dance you're talking about. It goes above and beyond the manager's position.

Sack him at the end of last season, regardless of CL qualification, that poll didn’t allow for much nuances but the idea is the same.

Teambuilding should be reliant on a manager you know is not good enough. I’m all for getting in an experienced DoF, but it’s not mutually exclusive with firing an underperforming manager. For all of Woodward’s faults, he’s not the one working with these players on a day to day basis for the last 20 months and as much as he needs to go, our quickest fix to the rut we are in now would be to get a better manager in. You don’t persist with a shit coach for years and years until you can get rid of the ones responsible for hiring him, that would be peak lunacy.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

So two things....what manager has the pedigree of Klopp and will that manager want to come to United knowing what they know and seeing what they see in terms of how transfers and player recruitment and selling off players is handled?

Pochettino is available for free, and believe it or not, managing Utd is still a huge draw for 99% of the coaches out there. If he could work under Levy for 5 years with those budget constraints he could deal with Woodward.

 

[edcunited1878]

Real Madrid is a better run club with better structure, yes. Even so that has nothing to do with sacking an underperforming manager like Ole and Real Madrid would have sacked him on the basis of having bad results and being a poor and limited coach, the players being good enough or not would be a different issue.

No, that's been my point. RM, their resources being what they are compared to the entirely of La Liga, don't have any problem recruiting enough quality proven players. So they have the luxury to sack managers left and right and still achieve the minimal goals in La Liga, let along in Europe.

Their structure, which includes getting good quality players to produce consistently, is part of their club. It's first and foremost their priority, then whoever they think is the manager that can play with their toys.

Ole isn't underperforming...underwhelming first 3 PL matches, of course. But going into the season, United had to get Top 4 and close the gap with the Top 2. But the biggest thing was the development and consistency of the attacking 3 whether it's Rashford, Martial, Greenwood/Sancho, and keeping the standard of level for the rest of the players but in reality they need to improve.

Ole isn't at Real Madrid and Ole doesn't have players at RM like Zidane does so it's a crap comparison. What is a good comparison is the fact that RM have competitive teams and good quality players for their manager to make them compete in La Liga and Europe. United haven't been able to say that because their squad hasn't developed the consistency in players or quality because their recruitment before and during Ole hasn't been good enough nor has it been enough time. 1.5 seasons and 3 PL leagues isn't enough.

 

[Roboc7]

All our managers post SAF would have been sacked a lot earlier at other clubs. Ole will go at some point this season probably end of it and plenty more managers will be sacked before we win anything significant.

Liverpool got lucky with Klopp and we’ll probably need something similar. There is no plan on or off the pitch and no one competent in the top roles like Woodward and Ole.

 

[edcunited1878]

Sack him at the end of last season, regardless of CL qualification, that poll didn’t allow for much nuances but the idea is the same.

Teambuilding should be reliant on a manager you know is not good enough. I’m all for getting in an experienced DoF, but it’s not mutually exclusive with firing an underperforming manager. For all of Woodward’s faults, he’s not the one working with these players on a day to day basis for the last 20 months and as much as he needs to go, our quickest fix to the rut we are in now would be to get a better manager in. You don’t persist with a shit coach for years and years until you can get rid of the ones responsible for hiring him, that would be peak lunacy.

Getting a better manager in doesn't solve the gap between 3rd/4th and 2nd/1st with teams strengthening around you. It all works hand in hand. A manager is only as good as his players.

Ole hasn't been at United for multiple years, you know that. He's barely half way through his 3 year contract!

What rut is United in? It's 3 fecking PL matches and it's been crazy. United were in deeper shit last year in December. United want to get rid of Ole, fine. It'll happen. But again, that's not the issue of hiring/firing. It's the issue of getting good players in and giving them the time and proper coaching to build on their previous years. You don't go from Jose to Ole, from Zlatan/Lukaku/Sanchez to Martial/Rashford/Greenwood in 2 years or whatever...that's the lack of consistency, continuity, and lack of time that then results into inconsistency, lack of continuity, and severe impatience all because the people at the top don't have a good footballing vision or structure or know how to build a team that is sustainable and that can be tweaked year over year without looking desperate and that can sustain managerial changes. That's not on Ole.

 

[edcunited1878]

All our managers post SAF would have been sacked a lot earlier at other clubs. Ole will go at some point this season probably end of it and plenty more managers will be sacked before we win anything significant.

Liverpool got lucky with Klopp and we’ll probably need something similar. There is no plan on or off the pitch and no one competent in the top roles like Woodward and Ole.

Liverpool didn't just get "lucky" with Klopp, they worked together to get the best team available...it wasn't just Klopp who magically made shit to gold or signed all these players. Liverpool had clear upgrades after a couple of seasons where they knew they needed to get better with players improving. And they needed to get rid of players too, a lot of them.

Allison, VVD, Fabinho, Robertson. The front 3 were good/very good, but improved with time under Klopp. TAA was developed by the club and became an instant success and class player. Klopp knows the strengths of his setup relative to his player's strengths and what they are able to consistently deliver. He had 3 years to really develop the team and get them to the CL final, then in the next two years they won the CL and won the PL....but Ole's been here barely half a season as caretaker, one full season as manager, and 3 PL matches a second season after the shitshow of 19/20 Covid year....and he's expected to do God's work? Again, I don't believe Ole is that manager, but he's done well with what he's been given and with the requiste time can continue to improve the players and squad before his tenure is over. But within his tenure or the near future, the club will have to deal with a new GK, address CB positions/players after Maguire and Lindeof, Paul Pogba, Matic, and at least one of the 3 forward players...can see one of them angling to leave or at least does United think they can bring someone in who is better than Rashford or Martial because Greenwood is going nowhere.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Liverpool didn't just get "lucky" with Klopp, they worked together to get the best team available...it wasn't just Klopp who magically made shit to gold or signed all these players.

Klopp, like Fergie, absolutely can turn Kagawa or Mihki from shit to gold.
They got lucky with the timing of having a free run at Klopp, the best manager in the World.

Managers can be game changers for clubs, even “meh” run clubs.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

Getting a better manager in doesn't solve the gap between 3rd/4th and 2nd/1st with teams strengthening around you. It all works hand in hand. A manager is only as good as his players.

Ole hasn't been at United for multiple years, you know that. He's barely half way through his 3 year contract!

What rut is United in? It's 3 fecking PL matches and it's been crazy. United were in deeper shit last year in December. United want to get rid of Ole, fine. It'll happen. But again, that's not the issue of hiring/firing. It's the issue of getting good players in and giving them the time and proper coaching to build on their previous years. You don't go from Jose to Ole, from Zlatan/Lukaku/Sanchez to Martial/Rashford/Greenwood in 2 years or whatever...that's the lack of consistency, continuity, and lack of time that then results into inconsistency, lack of continuity, and severe impatience all because the people at the top don't have a good footballing vision or structure or know how to build a team that is sustainable and that can be tweaked year over year without looking desperate and that can sustain managerial changes. That's not on Ole.

We’ve played largely like crap 3 games after the restart last season and the current shit show on the pitch is just a continuation of that. We are very much in a rut, there’s no structure, there’s no cohesion, there’s no rehearsed pattern of plays so players are forced to play on instincts and that makes them play like shit when both morale and fitness are low.

Most of that has to do with the manager, as much as you like to absolve him of responsibility, his job is to work on those aspects and he’s had 20 months to do that. There’s no indication that he’s capable of solving those persistent issues that plagued this team for years, namely the lack of an identifiable play style, the lack of mental toughness under adverse circumstances, and the lack of fitness to outwork the opponents when you can’t outplay them. So what good will it do persisting with him? Why can’t a Nagelsmann or a Pochettino be capable of developing those very aspects when they have done it with their previous clubs, as opposed to our current manager whose previous experience in the PL is getting Cardiff relegated and sacked when they were in the Championship?

 

[edcunited1878]

Klopp, like Fergie, absolutely can turn Kagawa or Mihki from shit to gold.
They got lucky with the timing of having a free run at Klopp, the best manager in the World.

Fergie didn't get the best out of Kags, so not sure what you're talking about. And he didn't do anything post Dortmund, much to the same as Mkhitaryan. They peaked for a couple of seasons but after that and leaving Dortmund and Bundesliga, they weren't any good. Same can be said of Dembele. It's not just all Klopp, but he's obviously a top manager even if he's a twat.

Klopp didn't want to come to United even if Woodward described United as an Adult Disneyland. Klopp wanted to do something his own way, but still knowing the club in Liverpool was a fairytale and that they had the competent resources to help him give them a chance. Woodward aint' giving United a chance in hell. And the ownership group at Liverpool is top notch too. That's another story, but one that doesn't include the manager.

 

[Will Singh]

Just because we’ve sacked x amount of managers doesn’t mean we should be restricted to sacking another one. I’ve heard the phrase ‘sacking club’ been thrown about but the point is if the managers been given the support to do he’s job and he hasn’t delivered them if he hadn’t met he’s target then he’s got to go. I don’t see it any different from any other large corporations...

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Fergie didn't get the best out of Kags, so not sure what you're talking about. And he didn't do anything post Dortmund, much to the same as Mkhitaryan. They peaked for a couple of seasons but after that and leaving Dortmund and Bundesliga, they weren't any good. Same can be said of Dembele. It's not just all Klopp, but he's obviously a top manager even if he's a twat.

So players get better when they play for Klopp, and peak, and then aren’t any good when they leave Klopp.
But it’s not Klopp

I meant Klopp is like Fergie and can turn shit (Cleverley if you like, or JOS), to gold. That’s a gift the very very best have.

 

[Coleyoscar]

Just because we’ve sacked x amount of managers doesn’t mean we should be restricted to sacking another one. I’ve heard the phrase ‘sacking club’ been thrown about but the point is if the managers been given the support to do he’s job and he hasn’t delivered them if he hadn’t met he’s target then he’s got to go. I don’t see it any different from any other large corporations...

Interesting that this doesn't seem to apply to Ed Woodward; failure personified.

 

[Roboc7]

Liverpool didn't just get "lucky" with Klopp, they worked together to get the best team available...it wasn't just Klopp who magically made shit to gold or signed all these players. Liverpool had clear upgrades after a couple of seasons where they knew they needed to get better with players improving. And they needed to get rid of players too, a lot of them.

Allison, VVD, Fabinho, Robertson. The front 3 were good/very good, but improved with time under Klopp. TAA was developed by the club and became an instant success and class player. Klopp knows the strengths of his setup relative to his player's strengths and what they are able to consistently deliver. He had 3 years to really develop the team and get them to the CL final, then in the next two years they won the CL and won the PL....but Ole's been here barely half a season as caretaker, one full season as manager, and 3 PL matches a second season after the shitshow of 19/20 Covid year....and he's expected to do God's work? Again, I don't believe Ole is that manager, but he's done well with what he's been given and with the requiste time can continue to improve the players and squad before his tenure is over. But within his tenure or the near future, the club will have to deal with a new GK, address CB positions/players after Maguire and Lindeof, Paul Pogba, Matic, and at least one of the 3 forward players...can see one of them angling to leave or at least does United think they can bring someone in who is better than Rashford or Martial because Greenwood is going nowhere.

They sacked Brendan and one of most sought after managers was a free agent. It all fell into their lap, from there it’s not luck of course.

 

[edcunited1878]

We’ve played largely like crap 3 games after the restart last season and the current shit show on the pitch is just a continuation of that. We are very much in a rut, there’s no structure, there’s no cohesion, there’s no rehearsed pattern of plays so players are forced to play on instincts and that makes them play like shit when both morale and fitness are low.

Most of that has to do with the manager, as much as you like to absolve him of responsibility, his job is to work on those aspects and he’s had 20 months to do that. There’s no indication that he’s capable of solving those persistent issues that plagued this team for years, namely the lack of an identifiable play style, the lack of mental toughness under adverse circumstances, and the lack of fitness to outwork the opponents when you can’t outplay them. So what good will it do persisting with him? Why can’t a Nagelsmann or a Pochettino be capable of developing those very aspects when they have done it with their previous clubs, as opposed to our current manager whose previous experience in the PL is getting Cardiff relegated and sacked when they were in the Championship?

United were one of the inform teams a bit before the restart and then after the restart....it's almost like it coincided with getting a key quality player in like Bruno. Who knew, good players make teams good. Then Ole and his coaches made the decision to play Rashford, Martial, and Greenwood together with Bruno and Pogba in the same team. It's as if they were coached to play together and play well.

United weren't able to build on anything from their break and that's down to the players individually, the board, and yes Ole. It's all gone to bits right now, but thankful for the international break to regroup and get their heads right.

20 months to do what exactly? Get the team to try to qualify for CL as it fell short as caretaker, but then got players to play for him until the wheels fell off and the mental and physical toll got to them. Then he had to revamp his attacking line and go with a new attacking line in their settled position for the first team in their short careers. Rashford made the LF position his or at least he was given it. Martial finally got to play as the 9 again in a functionally forward team, unlike LVG. Then right wing was a black hole, same with the 10 position until Bruno got there. But then Pogba was hurt most of that time and you had to work with McTominay, Fred, and Matic. Then the backline was solid for the most part, but still had their ups and downs. So Ole had to manage that and changed it up and thankfully United were still in touching distance with CL and then gave it a proper go post lockdown...and wouldn't you know it they did it! They improved because if they didn't improve and gain consistency, then they wouldn't have gotten to 3rd place.

You can hardly fix years of impotence and incompetence in 1.5 years. It takes time and even with different managers, you still have to get players in and out, and still need to stick to some type of football ethos or stick to strengths you have in house and build on that.

Nagelsmann's jury is still out...he's got a lot to do still. He needs a good baseline of players and quality, like every coach does. Poch is a good manager, but he had a better team at Spurs than United does...harsh but I think true.

Seems like you weren't happy with Ole being hired full time in the first place. I think United could have done better whether it was Poch or someone else, but that's what they chose. And frankly Ole's deserved his time at United thus far, even if it's just been one full year and 3 PL matches as full time manager.

 

[edcunited1878]

They sacked Brendan and one of most sought after managers was a free agent. It all fell into their lap, from there it’s not luck of course.

He wasn't pulling up trees while he was manager anyways. And he was their manager for 3+ years...not just 1.5 + 3 games for Ole. Again, the board and owners of Liverpool made a great hire in Klopp...everyone knew that. Then they properly and efficiently reinforced Klopp's teams and got rid of the deadwood or players not good enough. Fair play to them. It takes a village, not just a manager.

 

[edcunited1878]

So players get better when they play for Klopp, and peak, and then aren’t any good when they leave Klopp.
But it’s not Klopp

I meant Klopp is like Fergie and can turn shit (Cleverley if you like, or JOS), to gold. That’s a gift the very very best have.

Seriously...Cleverley was surrounded by whom...exactly. Modern day Cleverley is Harry Winks. But Winks in those United teams, he would have been just fine. O'Shea was a very capable and trusted backup and had some moments of quality. He'd be very much a good player in the current United side to fill in for Shaw and a CB role. They weren't capable of carrying United teams to glory, it was...I don't know, Rooney, Scholes, Giggs, Carrick, Rio, Vida, Evra, Ronaldo, Tevez, Nani, etc. But Cleverley and O'Shea...you knew what they offered and you surrounded that and complimented it with good, consistent, reliable players mixed with match winners. But you knew exactly what they were going to produce which enabled you round the squad with Cleverley's and O'Sheas'.

 

[Roboc7]

He wasn't pulling up trees while he was manager anyways. And he was their manager for 3+ years...not just 1.5 + 3 games for Ole. Again, the board and owners of Liverpool made a great hire in Klopp...everyone knew that. Then they properly and efficiently reinforced Klopp's teams and got rid of the deadwood or players not good enough. Fair play to them. It takes a village, not just a manager.

And if they’d appointed Ole or probably any other manager available they wouldn’t be where they are now. They sold deadwood, they bought some more but they got enough right and had a top class manager who fell in their lap.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Seriously...Cleverley was surrounded by whom...exactly. Modern day Cleverley is Harry Winks. But Winks in those United teams, he would have been just fine. O'Shea was a very capable and trusted backup and had some moments of quality. He'd be very much a good player in the current United side to fill in for Shaw and a CB role. They weren't capable of carrying United teams to glory, it was...I don't know, Rooney, Scholes, Giggs, Carrick, Rio, Vida, Evra, Ronaldo, Tevez, Nani, etc. But Cleverley and O'Shea...you knew what they offered and you surrounded that and complimented it with good, consistent, reliable players mixed with match winners. But you knew exactly what they were going to produce which enabled you round the squad with Cleverley's and O'Sheas'.

That’s just a lot of waffling.

Fergie and Klopp regularly had shit playing way above their level, true or false?

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

And if they’d appointed Ole or probably any other manager available they wouldn’t be where they are now. They sold deadwood, they bought some more but they got enough right and had a top class manager who fell in their lap.

Yup.

 

[Will Singh]

Interesting that this doesn't seem to apply to Ed Woodward; failure personified.

100% should apply to Woodward but the problem starts and end with our clown owners who are only worried about lining there pockets.

 

[Acheron]

Ole isn't at Real Madrid and Ole doesn't have players at RM like Zidane does so it's a crap comparison. What is a good comparison is the fact that RM have competitive teams and good quality players for their manager to make them compete in La Liga and Europe. United haven't been able to say that because their squad hasn't developed the consistency in players or quality because their recruitment before and during Ole hasn't been good enough nor has it been enough time. 1.5 seasons and 3 PL leagues isn't enough.

Even if he had better players and was in charge of Real Madrid it's very likely he would underperform here as well and get sacked immediately. It's not solely on the players but on how they perform as a team and having different objectives and more ambition about what you ask from you demand from your manager and with Real Madrid, for the better and the worse, those expectations are always high.

So I understand that currently United is in a different position where expecting to challenge for the title would be unrealistic but it's still a rich club with plenty of resources. I'd even argue that if you believe your team isn't good enough that just accentuates the need of a good manager instead of sticking to a mediocre one.

 

[Foxbatt]

Seriously...Cleverley was surrounded by whom...exactly. Modern day Cleverley is Harry Winks. But Winks in those United teams, he would have been just fine. O'Shea was a very capable and trusted backup and had some moments of quality. He'd be very much a good player in the current United side to fill in for Shaw and a CB role. They weren't capable of carrying United teams to glory, it was...I don't know, Rooney, Scholes, Giggs, Carrick, Rio, Vida, Evra, Ronaldo, Tevez, Nani, etc. But Cleverley and O'Shea...you knew what they offered and you surrounded that and complimented it with good, consistent, reliable players mixed with match winners. But you knew exactly what they were going to produce which enabled you round the squad with Cleverley's and O'Sheas'.

Cleverly was surrounded by fat Ando. They were the midfield till Cleverly got injured. Tevez and Ronaldo were not there for the last CL Final. Good managers make good players better. Why did RVP score all those goals for United under SAF? Because as the players tell now, they were told they would be dropped if they do not pass to RVP if he was in a better position. And SAF would have dropped them. We see the selfishness of the players now and our manager sits there day after day looking at his ipad.

 

[Wednesday at Stoke]

Constant managerial turnover only ever works for Chelsea, even that because they have a very successful CEO behind it with Marina Granovskaia and prior to that, Miachel Emanelo, who make most of the personnel decisions.

Its the same at Bayern, the people who make personnel decisions have been constant and successful football people.

Real, despite the turnover have mostly been managed by Zidane during their success.

Barca are probably the closest analogy to United with a shit board but even they inherited Messi.

 

[edcunited1878]

Even if he had better players and was in charge of Real Madrid it's very likely he would underperform here as well and get sacked immediately. It's not solely on the players but on how they perform as a team and having different objectives and more ambition about what you ask from you demand from your manager and with Real Madrid, for the better and the worse, those expectations are always high.

So I understand that currently United is in a different position where expecting to challenge for the title would be unrealistic but it's still a rich club with plenty of resources. I'd even argue that if you believe your team isn't good enough that just accentuates the need of a good manager instead of sticking to a mediocre one.

RM's expectations are high, as they should be. With that league and your resources, which are unrivalled almost across the world and only one team in La Liga...those are very realistic. Win the league or come close to it and deep run in the CL, if not win it. Even with out Ronaldo and some of your players getting long in the tooth, they are top class! Zidane has proven to be a better manager than one would expect, but he had very good players to work with and found a winning formula with them, so fair play.

I agree that United can and should have appointed a better manager than Ole, but my point has always been that this overall malaise for the past 8 years isn't on Ole or just on the manager. It's on Woodward and that football structure.

For far too many years, it's been the same song and dance of start, stop, start, stop, stop, start. Varying degrees of managers, players in and players inability to leave, etc. The academy has seemed to find it's way the past 3 years at least with some promising signings and players like a Greenwood, maybe Garner, Tengi, Rashford, etc. But with young players, comes great expectations, but also great frustrations and inconsistencies as we've seen with Rashford, Martial, McTominay, etc. And you can have the best manager in the world coaching them, but it takes more than 20 months to see them to their absolute matured peak, especiall if it's only been one season in their 'preferred' position as it is for Rashford and Martial with Greenwood being played as a wide forward threat for now.

The club may be rich in value and history, but their resources are inefficient and that's not acceptable. Could have had Jones or Rojo off the books with one players at equal or lesser wages contributing to the team. With those wages 'saved' and maybe a cheaper player and quality of an AWB or Maguire, or selling Pogba....those could have freed up wages to get a better player for the team in a year or two (or now), but still using those resources to find a quality, reliable player in place of a deadwood player making too much in wages or a starter. That's the efficiency and shrewd dealings that always helps clubs be ready when they really need to splash serious cash at a moments notice.