Just like Mourinho lost it for not picking Mata, your theory (losing the dressing room) is possible but your reasons for it is a bit twisted in your love for wanting your favourite players to start, Mata for one hasn't set the world alight at United, Herrera has a better case. The second bolded part, you can make players feel important whilst not picking them, you frankly don't know what LVG has said to the players which, there's only ever a place for 11 players and some of you need to understand that, one day he's getting criticized for not rating Shaw, not picking Falcao, Januzaj, Herrera, Mata etc, he can't play them all and am sure the players know that. A manager is not ever going to lose a dressing room for not picking 2 players both of whom are not really leadership figures in the dressing room.Look at Chelsea success... look at Real... they rotate thru managers all the time. Certainly not the "United Way", but clearly it is not automatically "counter productive".
Now then our issue.
I have a simple theory... the manager has lost the dressing room. I mean honestly if you are Herrera or Mata how can you see Rooney at CM and Falcao and RvP continually getting starts while you sit on the bench. Sorry if I was in their boots I would lose faith with the guy. same thing with Pogba, he saw two defenders start CM over him under Fergie. One of the managers most important jobs is to make you feel important and frankly i think way too many of the players have no idea what he wants and therefore have no way of feeling vital to the team's success.
All these people focused on tactics and formations (and I have a fair few of those to my name) really just want players playing in positions they feel comfortable in and are natural. Much of that is just assumed in thye FIFA generation, but frankly this is what Fergie was a master of, man management and I would bet in private conversations more that a few current players would *not* be signing LvG's praises....
So what is the actual issue then?
- Thread starter Pexbo
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No, it isn't. Our midfield is arguably the most balanced part of our team in any case, actually.
I have no idea, and that's why im not involved in football at any level. all i can say is, from an outside perspective as we all are, we are in a lot of trouble and nothing seems to be changing in long rooted problems with the first team.
My thoughts exactly.
No, but in Herrera's case he is not picking him and playing a striker in his place.
You are more than entitled to your opinion or conjecture on how that would feel if it was you, but for me it would bother the H*!! out of me.
Our resulst arent an evidence he lost the dressing room.
Herrera is 1.82 m, I wouldnt say he's small....
Agreed. I'd say it's the one part of the team where we seem to have good options in the way we play.
Defence is dodgy no matter who we pick and up front we have a choice between 2 under performing strikers who many want to leave in the summer, under performing wingers, Rooney (who some say is under performing) and Ashley Young ffs.
I don't see that. On the contrary I see players like Herrera trying to understand why Blind, Rooney and RvP are automatic starters and adapting to conform to that kind of play.
It's not easy though because a lot of what makes a player like Di Maria good is knowing how those around him will move, and when everyone's hesitating ("where would the boss say I should be?") it turns him into just another inconsistent flair player. A role he's not well suited to because he's never been enough of a goalscorer to get away with it.
You're being melodramatic. Professional football is a tough sport. We've a big squad of players and can only start XI in any given week. Hererra's already made it clear how much he is in awe of Manchester United when he joined us. Wayne Rooney is a club captain and one of the most highly thought of footballers in Europe. Herrera's in his debut season, settling into a new league. He's not going to throw his toys out of the pram just because Rooney's getting games ahead of him. All the more so because he seems like a very sensible character. It's a huge leap to assume Van Gaal has "lost the dressing room" just because you disagree with his team selection.
Really? All 4?
Personally, I'd like it if we got rid of RVP and Falcao and got in, like you said, a younger, hungrier striker. As for Mata, if there isn't space for him, I'd say get rid. But Rooney? He's arguably our best player.
I think the issues is balance as well but Rooney is definitely someone I'd be disappointed to see leave.
A lot of the players (and to some extent the manager) are nothing like as good as people think they are or their reputations suggest, take our strikers for example looks great on paper but they don’t work well together, are all past their best and we don’t have the right players around them. We also have players that just don’t fit well together throughout the squad and/or don’t play in their best positions and it’s almost like we picked names out of a hat rather than signed players with a specific plan in mind.
The defence, midfield and attack all need strengthening and we need a much better balance throughout the squad, the manager also needs to adapt to the Premier League and learn from his mistakes this season. It’s going to take 5-6 new players to try and sort it out, getting the right ones and making it work still won’t be guaranteed but it is the only way to move on from the mess we are in at the moment.
The defence, midfield and attack all need strengthening and we need a much better balance throughout the squad, the manager also needs to adapt to the Premier League and learn from his mistakes this season. It’s going to take 5-6 new players to try and sort it out, getting the right ones and making it work still won’t be guaranteed but it is the only way to move on from the mess we are in at the moment.
Tbh I'm starting to agree with the idea that it is (partly) psychological. If so, then Mourinho might be the best choice to change that. I know he isn't really a long term choice and is a big pain but he could prove that we can succeed without SAF and it's not as if every club he leaves falls apart (see: Real Madrid and Chelsea. Inter would have been poor anyway.)
I think that did shatter the mentality we had built up, especially with the loss of Vidic, Ferdinand and Evra. But I think that the last summer may be even more damaging. If we can't get the new players to perform, how we will get ADM off the wage bill? Falcao looks like a lost cause and RVP doesn't seem to have much left in the tank. Who do we get up front? Also, the owners might be more reluctant to spend the money after all that money gave little return.
He's Spanish, so he must be a midget.
Yeah, it goes automatically it seems.He's Spanish, so he must be a midget.
Herrera is Spanish therefore he's small.
ADM doesnt want to be here.
Shaw is overweight.
Maybe, but that still doesn’t explain some of the bizarre team selections this season, in my eyes (and many many others) this has made the team unbalanced, more so than it was before anyway. As odd as it seems I rate LVG highly, he was in my top three or four choices to who I’d want to see manage us. However, when we have to start making excuses for the manager, then maybe it’s time to start looking at the bigger picture.
Of course it has balance, how does it not?
It’s more or less his team now, whose fault is that? He brought in 6 players that leaves 5 first team players from the ‘old’ team, take away the keeper that leaves four. I’m not being over critical here but the excuses are starting to wear thin now. He has had ¾ of a season to sort us out and we haven’t moved an inch.
Was that after SAF or after Moyes?
After Sir Alex, I never wanted Moyes.
We're definitely paying the price for not installing a DoF. I know it would have been difficult with SAF there but it would have allowed some continuity on the footballing side and I would argue would have helped address some of SAF's failings in player development. It's been done to death in other threads but we haven't extracted obvious value yet from the money spent. Rojo for example is still a purchase that baffles me.
In terms of on the pitch, we're suffering for having slow strikers and for our elite players being average than good.
That combined with our CBs being too easy to play against when the other team is in possession as meant we concede too easily (unless playing the 3-5-2) and don't create enough clear cut chances.
I don't think LVG has got everything right but he obviously hasn't lost the dressing room and I don't think the last set of transfers can be blamed on him. Blind is the one he obviously wanted and I would argue he's been the best value.
The fact that Smalling, Evans, Rafael, Anderson, Jones, Nani, Valencia, Cleverley, Welbeck haven't or didn't progress as we hoped or expected over the last two or three seasons is not LVG's fault.
The fact that Mata and Fellaini were purchases made by a desperate manager and CEO for the wrong reasons is not LVG's fault.
The fact that United hired him knowing he would be at the WC is not LVG's fault and we don't have a DoF to help smooth these frictions.
In terms of on the pitch, we're suffering for having slow strikers and for our elite players being average than good.
That combined with our CBs being too easy to play against when the other team is in possession as meant we concede too easily (unless playing the 3-5-2) and don't create enough clear cut chances.
I don't think LVG has got everything right but he obviously hasn't lost the dressing room and I don't think the last set of transfers can be blamed on him. Blind is the one he obviously wanted and I would argue he's been the best value.
The fact that Smalling, Evans, Rafael, Anderson, Jones, Nani, Valencia, Cleverley, Welbeck haven't or didn't progress as we hoped or expected over the last two or three seasons is not LVG's fault.
The fact that Mata and Fellaini were purchases made by a desperate manager and CEO for the wrong reasons is not LVG's fault.
The fact that United hired him knowing he would be at the WC is not LVG's fault and we don't have a DoF to help smooth these frictions.
Fair enough.
I was just wondering as I never really heard an outcry for LVG after SAF. It was only last summer everyone started getting excited about him and it became the 'Oranje Cafe'.
I partly wonder if it was mostly because he is the total opposite of Moyes.
It was the Moyes affect tbh, I doubt people would have been exstatic if we got LVG straight after Fergie. I reckon most would have understood the logic but some would have been dissapointed. However after Moyes I think anyone with some sort of pedegree would have been welcomed. Even then some did express displeasure.
Nice post but with which the most I agree. But why does Rojo purchase baffles you?
And he was a LVG buy.
I wanted LVG simply because he had the balls to make the difficult decisions that the team needed after Fergie left. He was far from the popular opinion I agree, but I had a feeling that the next manger was going to try and be a diluted version of Fergie which turned out to be the case with Moyes. IMO that would never have happened to a manager of LVG stature.
All part of the process.
True. I think i remember a poll done in the last few years of SAF's reign about who did you want to be the successor. It's a long time ago and I can't check (i'm in work) but Ancelotti, Mou, Pep and Klopp were the front runners. I don't think LVG was really mentioned.
Any of those would have done.
The defence in Saturdays game was atrocious. They are very inexperienced and we are paying the price of not signing someone last summer with that experience. The fact that we let January go by and not sign anyone then was a big mistake. It didn't have to be a world star, but someone with tactical and positional nous who could organise the defence. What it would have cost would be peanuts compared to what we will lose if we don't get Top 4. I understand about the midfield being the first line of defence, but the defence is incapable of dealing with the situation after that. Crosses do come in, it happens, then defenders deal with it. Make sure you are marking people at corners. I am beginning to understanding why he was playing 3-5-2. I am not even sure we have enough CB's of quality to make up the 3.
Maybe the right CB wasnt available. I'd rather sign a proper good CB in the summer than some short gap sollution in the winter.
Problem is even with existing CBs at his disposal LVG mixes them too much together with all of them not beein that good yeah. Smalling-Rojo should be a prefered pair, its not brilliant but its the best we got imo.
Maybe Im wrong but defense wont probably cost us the CL spot, combintion of not being good enough in front of goal, midfield which doesnt create chances enough and shaky defense. It will all be a part of it.
Of course, I'll be disappointed in any player who is happy to sit on the bench, but ultimately they understand it and its left to them to prove the manager wrong, like Herrera did but Falcao failed to do...I don't think benching a player or 2 is enough to lose the dressing room, except that player is one of the leaders of said dressing room....And by the way, we have been getting results, we're just inconsistent...IF we go on a steady downward spiral [something that has not happened this season] then this theory will pack more power.
He has got rid of last season's troublemakers, so there most likely isn't an issue. The only ones that might cause problems are the undropables Rooney and RvP if they got dropped, which they won't. Falcao's agent is more of a problem than the actual player.
Exactly.
plus, besides, Herrera started on the weekend. so it's not like he's been completely frozen out.
Not play Fellaini and not have RvP in front of the other three. Mata for Fellaini and Januzaj/Wilson/Young for RvP and I think we'd see more fluid attacks and we might even actually create some chances. We're still too slow and calculated in attack and lumping it to Fellaini to head it back across the box clearly isn't the answer.
The problem is pretty straightforward...this United team simply isn't that great, and the rest of the EPL is catching up in terms of talent.
It's pretty difficult for a club to remain dominant for a long stretch of time without going through some rebuilding and growing pains. Look at our squad from 2006-11, when we won 4 of 5 EPL titles, the squad featured many players that will be remembered as some of the best to ever serve the club:
van der sar
Neville
Evra
Ferdinand
Ronaldo
Rooney
Scholes
Giggs
Vidic
Solskjaer
I mean, good grief, look at that list. Really think about it. 30 years from now, when we're all old and fat and bald we'll look back and say that United squad featured one of the best GKs in EPL history, 2 of the 5 best players to EVER play in the EPL, the most prolific English goalscorer ever and the single most electrifying footballer of the 21st century. That United team was legendary.
Look at our squad now...of course it's hard to predict the future, but if I had to venture a guess, if we played the same game 30 years from now with this current United team I'd name 2 players who will be remembered at United greats...one is a holdover from those previous years (Rooney) and the other might not even stick around long enough to cement his place in United lore (De Gea).
We just don't have the star power, the match-winners that we used to...and like I said at the outset, the rest of the EPL has been catching up with the top teams for the past decade. I'd make the claim that the 'average' EPL team (top 10) in 2015 is definitely more skilled and better organized than the 'average' EPL team was in 2005. That's fantastic for the overall health of the league, but not so good for us.
It's pretty difficult for a club to remain dominant for a long stretch of time without going through some rebuilding and growing pains. Look at our squad from 2006-11, when we won 4 of 5 EPL titles, the squad featured many players that will be remembered as some of the best to ever serve the club:
van der sar
Neville
Evra
Ferdinand
Ronaldo
Rooney
Scholes
Giggs
Vidic
Solskjaer
I mean, good grief, look at that list. Really think about it. 30 years from now, when we're all old and fat and bald we'll look back and say that United squad featured one of the best GKs in EPL history, 2 of the 5 best players to EVER play in the EPL, the most prolific English goalscorer ever and the single most electrifying footballer of the 21st century. That United team was legendary.
Look at our squad now...of course it's hard to predict the future, but if I had to venture a guess, if we played the same game 30 years from now with this current United team I'd name 2 players who will be remembered at United greats...one is a holdover from those previous years (Rooney) and the other might not even stick around long enough to cement his place in United lore (De Gea).
We just don't have the star power, the match-winners that we used to...and like I said at the outset, the rest of the EPL has been catching up with the top teams for the past decade. I'd make the claim that the 'average' EPL team (top 10) in 2015 is definitely more skilled and better organized than the 'average' EPL team was in 2005. That's fantastic for the overall health of the league, but not so good for us.
You've already said that the lack of time to blend the squad is an issue. If the lack of suitable players is also an issue, isn't he going to face the same problem next summer when he has to buy 4 or 5 more, or whatever it is? Unless we assume that these more suitable players are, for the most part, going to fit in seamlessly
I was talking more about pysical then height, but yeah he is tall.
I had to look that up to check when someone first told me. He manages to look short despite being nearly 6 ft.
Yeah. I put that in the 'weird feelings..." thread. Somehow he's shorter than Rooney despite being (I think) 2 inches taller. Same for Robben.
And Lewandowski's shorter than Sturridge